Results 1 to 44 of 44
-
08-27-2012, 10:41 AM #1
When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
There has been some discussion about getting access to inspect something, and many just pull the "can't get to it, so I'm not inspecting it" card, and move on. Others, will do just about anything to get access.
Of course most Standards of Practice define what is Readily Accessible, and Readily Openable Access Panel. They also go on to allow inspectors to use the "cant get to it, so I'm not inspecting it" card, by putting in several clauses where an inspector is "NOT required" to do something, for safety or other reasons.
Inspectors are also NOT required to move personal property, etc.
Where do we draw the line? Are we doing our clients a disservice by NOT inspecting something because it was "too hard" to get to? While we may be within our "rights", are we doing the right thing?
I feel I owe it to my client to do the most thorough job I can. Personally, I hate to make more than one trip to a house. I will do just about anything to get the inspection done in one trip.
If the electrical panel or crawlspace door has a padlock on it, I will call the listing agent and ask them to get in touch with the property owner and see if there is a key somewhere in the house. If they can not get in contact with the seller, I ask permission (from the listing agent) to cut the lock. In 23 years on inspecting, I have never had a seller or listing agent refuse to let me cut the lock. Each and every time, I offer to replace the padlock. Most of the time they tell me not to bother.
I have gone to crawlspaces and found the access panel screwed in place. I have always just removed the screws, and replace them when I was done. According to my SOP, I could have disclaimed getting into the crawlspace, however I would have shortchanged my client by not inspecting one of the most important components of the house.
Attic access is frequently blocked by owners belongings in a closet. If the seller is there, I ask them to move their stuff so I can get access. If they are not there, but a Realtor is, I ask the Realtor to give me a hand moving stuff. If I am by myself, I will make the determination if I want to move their stuff or not (it depends on what is stored, and the potential risk for damage/liability). Frankly, I hate doing this!
That said, in the 23 years I have been inspecting, I have had one seller file a claim with BBB saying I damaged her clothes. I "settled" the claim with a check for $8.00 to cover cleaning costs. I have also had two or three closet rods fall off the wall when I set my ladder up. Once my ladder slipped on the hardwood floor and shot back and went into the drywall on the opposite wall of the hallway. The seller was home and said he was patching drywall anyway and not to worry about it.
Stuff stored in bath tubs....... if its not too much, I move it to test. If there is a huge amount, I take photos, and leave it in place. I ALWAYS lift the bath mat, after I found a hole in the bottom of a tub. Do you move throw rugs around toilets?
I try to not touch furniture, and if I do have to move a chair or something small, I try to place it back into the same dents in the carpet.
Boxes stored in from of HVAC units is garages or attics? Will you typically moved them? Where do you draw the line?
How about stuff stored at the bottom of the attic access ladder in a garage?
Or the lawnmower or trash cans left in place in front of the crawlspace door, or side door to a garage?
I'm just curious on other's take on this issue.
Similar Threads:
-
08-27-2012, 11:58 AM #2
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
It depends.
If it is just a box or two to access the electrical panel, water heater, etc., then I usually move them. Try to put them back in the same place when done to prevent seller call backs.
I have taken the screws out of hinges to access crawlspaces that were padlocked.
Usually my clients are in attendance, and they see first hand just how much stuff needs to be moved to access the equipment. Sometimes they will offer to shuffle stuff around to grant access.
On warranty inspections I ask the owner to move stuff.
I have shoved a chair or couch out from a wall to access receptacles, returns, etc. Similarly I try to return them to the dents in the carpet. Usually depends on how many other receptacles are accessible to test and how heavy the furniture is.
I have cut wallpaper and chipped away joint compound from electrical panels. Just too many issues to overlook. Most times the buyer is going to strip the ugly wallpaper and paint over the hideous paint color anyway.
But there are times I just shrug at the amount of stuff or difficulty and disclaim in the report. It depends on how I feel about the inspection. Don't do that often but there are times.
"The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."
-
08-27-2012, 01:38 PM #3
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I bring enough tools to get in, but I haven't cut a lock yet. We don't see outdoor electrical panels here, just an occasional padlock on a shed or garage. I shoot a few pics thru a window and move on in that case. Often the seller has storage he doesn't want us to see or touch, fine, I'll concentrate on the house anyway. Other than that, I will get to the important inspection items one way or another. Since I'm a lightweight, under 170 lbs, I can climb over, like the junk in this garage blocking access to an electrical panel. I didn't move it, just stepped carefully over it.
Oh yeah, the tub full of stuffy toys, books, clothes and shoes? I just go find a bucket or a bowl and run water into that.
Do I put stuff back the way I found it? Sometimes. If I think the people will even care or notice. For animals, why bother? I'll add a few pics for samples of the junk we see every other day. Sheesh, people have no concept of what we have to do.
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-27-2012, 04:07 PM #4
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Agents exist to move stuff.
I tell em' it will make the inspection go faster.
-
08-28-2012, 04:57 AM #5
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I do not move the seller's belongings if they can be construed as breakable. Anything can be broken. It is, as per my inspection agreement, the responsibility of the seller and his agent and the buyer and his agent to have all systems readily accessible at the time of the inspection.
If it is not readily accessible it gets disclaimed. I am an inspector and not a moving company. If you start moving the seller's personal belongings you will be wishing you had added him to your insurance policy like another thread on this forum suggests.
I refer to it as the maid syndrome. If it is found to be broken or missing - the maid must've done it. If you move their stuff around you are that maid.
Like MT said: Agents (or their seller or buyer delegates) exist to move stuff.
Last edited by Aaron Miller; 08-28-2012 at 04:58 AM. Reason: Typo
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-28-2012, 05:08 AM #6
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Many times I am at the inspection by myself.
Pet peeve...people that put all that crap on the window ledge of the kitchen window, or the back of the range (can't test the anti-tilt bracket).
So Aaron, you won't move a trash can in front of a door, or electrical panel? Or the lawnmower in front of the HVAC unit in the garage?
-
08-28-2012, 07:14 AM #7
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I make it a habit of telling whoever books the inspection that I want clear access to the electrical panel, and furnace and attic and the reasons why.
If there is any shelving in the way of accessing attic I want the shelving and contents removed.
-
08-28-2012, 10:27 AM #8
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-28-2012, 11:29 AM #9
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Maybe people leave more crap around here in TN. :-)
-
08-28-2012, 01:16 PM #10
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-28-2012, 02:19 PM #11
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-28-2012, 02:54 PM #12
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
My clients are fully-informed at least a day or two in advance of the inspection as to what it is that the inspection covers, what it does not cover, what their responsibilities are, what the seller's responsibilities are, and what the agents are responsible for. They then sign their names to a document affirming that they understand these things.
Since you appear to be a super hero able to leap tall mounds of crap in a single bound, how would you deal with these actual scenarios?
(1) Pull-down stair to garage attic is obstructed by a stacked hydraulic wrack containing two vintage Ferraris, each worth more than my house and bank account holdings. Lean your ladder against the top Ferrari and climb across it or disclaim it?
(2) Estate sale preparations have been made for the day after the inspection. The house is completely filled with crap. Every square inch of floor space is covered other than enough room for shoppers to sidle through. Even the windowsills are covered. There is no access to anything other than the roof and exterior. Toss it all or disclaim it?
(3) There are two muzzled German shepherd dogs loose in the house. There is a sign on the door which says: "Mr. Inspector, the dogs are friendly. Their names are Snick and Snack." The dogs are growling and jumping in my direction. Run, or carry on?
(4) The house is occupied by a hoarder. Burn it or inspect it?
(5) The two antique dealer gentlemen seller's have obviously spent about $2.3 million dollars on furnishing every square inch of usable space with items of great beauty and value. Only a midget could navigate without breaking something costing more than my van is worth. Should I disclaim or start swinging in ever-widening arcs?
Where's my kryptonite?
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-28-2012, 04:18 PM #13
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I don't know, just do what you think is best.
No, I wouldn't climb over the Ferraris or the Harley either.
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-28-2012, 04:22 PM #14
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Aaron,
Most of your examples would have me not inspecting some things. The dogs are a hot spot for me since I was bit last year. Hoarder's house or not, I would never burn it. I may not inspect it, but I would't burn it.
However, I will slide a trash can or lawnmower out of the way, or move the odd box or two. Each time I elected to move someone else's property, I have tried to assess my risk factor.
I have climbed up into a boat to get into an attic, but declined to get anywhere near the car blocking access to the ladder. Its a judgement call for me.
I admire your ability to stick to your guns and hold the hard line. However, I have to wonder what your client's might think when you say you couldn't get into a crawlspace because a lawnmower was blocking the access, and no one was there to move it for you. I know I would have a hard time explaining it (in my area).
-
08-29-2012, 03:22 AM #15
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I explain such things preemptively in my inspection agreement which is signed a minimum of 24 hours in advance of the inspection appointment. Everyone is aware of whose responsibility it is to make things accessible for me prior to that time. My policies are in alignment with the state and ASHI SOP. They are also in place to protect the seller's property and to reduce my and my client's liability should something become damaged due to my moving it.
Have any of you ever been on an inspection and moved a piece of furniture to get to a receptacle or window just to have the furniture fall to pieces? Ever tried to move a drapery valance just a bit to enable you to open the plantation shutters when the valance came tumbling down, and then the plantation shutter falls to pieces on the floor? Ever moved those boxes from the bottom of a closet and then hear momma's china and crystal breaking within? Hefted the loaded metal shelving from in front of the electrical distribution panelboard and have it fall on you? Pushed a motorcycle out of the way and the wheel falls off? I can go on like this forever.
So Jack, you have your company policies and I have mine. Yours may be unnecessarily exposing you and your clients to liability, while mine are not. Mine are avoiding unnecessary liability and training future generations of home buyers, home sellers, and agents in proper inspection etiquette.
Last edited by Aaron Miller; 08-29-2012 at 04:23 AM. Reason: Addition
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-29-2012, 08:07 AM #16
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
A couple of years ago: House is vacant, sellers have moved except for the closet with access to the crawl. It is FILLED with every size and shape of boxes waiting to be loaded. Took several photos showing labels and location. There is no such thing as an inaccessible crawlspace.
Jack: One time I removed the boat cover and set the ladder inside to get into an attic.
ddn
-
08-29-2012, 10:33 AM #17
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Either you are relatively new to the profession or you don't do much work. I have encountered multiple crawl spaces that were inaccessible, just like everyone else. Just a few of the reasons for inaccessibility encountered have been:
1. Venomous snakes.
2. Standing water.
3. Standing water with electrical cable lying on the ground.
4. Hornets.
5. Raccoon with babies.
6. No access opening.
7. Vertical clearance of less than 12".
8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
9. Ground in space covered in sewage from wholesale broken DWV piping.
10. Skunks.
So then, jump into that phone booth and bust out in that super hero costume. We'll call 911 and order you a six pack of EMTs.
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-29-2012, 10:47 AM #18
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
11. Fire Ants
12. Pitt bull
13. Gas Odor
14. Debris,Broken Glass, Concrete Chunks
15. Rotten, Rotting Carcass
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.
-
08-29-2012, 10:52 AM #19
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
So Aaron, if you open a kitchen sink-base cabinet and discover a refuse container blocking your view of the plumbing, you just say "Oh Well, not my job" ?
I'm sure you move some things, some of the time, even if you don't admit it.
-
08-29-2012, 10:55 AM #20
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Last edited by Aaron Miller; 08-29-2012 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Addition.
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-29-2012, 05:10 PM #21
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
aaron
was there an answer there--move trash can
cvf
-
08-29-2012, 05:52 PM #22
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Aaron,
I'm curious about #8. Space filled with ducts and gas piping.
We have a lot of package units, so the return and supply ducts are in the crawlspace. There are also gas lines in crawlspaces.
Do you not enter a crawlspace if there are ducts and gas piping in there?
-
08-29-2012, 06:18 PM #23
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
I would enter the crawl space but not climb over the ducts, usually they are already mashed from other people crawling over them, I won't make them worse. I'm not in the business of damaging things.
My policy on moving things is if it looks like the resident moves the items all the time, trash cans, hanging clothes, lawn mowers, etc. I'll move them. If items are never or nearly ever moved, beds couches dressers, parked car, storage in a closet, I don't move them and disclose it. I have a standard disclosure for this.
Lets face it, sometimes you just can't get to it. No inspection fee is worth me paying for damage or hurting myself. If there are clothes in the wash machine or dryer and no one there to move them I don't run the appliances or touch the clothes. Have you ever seen an insensed woman after you touched her undies? Once I shrunk a "favorite" piece of clothing and had to pay for it. I've done this long enough to have learned from mistakes I've made and then incorporate them into my business. A beautiful thing is a manufactured home with no possessions inside or out and the carpet removed, but it rarely happens.
Expert Mobile & Manufactured Home Inspections O.C. & San Diego Co.
-
08-29-2012, 07:53 PM #24
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
My pet peeve is the Electric Service Panel that is stuck in a cramped closet with an electric heating unit crammed in front of it leaving just enough room to open the panel door, let alone remove the dead front. Do I want to remove the dead front and inspect the panel? Sure! Do I want to wedge myself in a cramped space and try removing a metal dead front around a 240 volt service with little to no elbow room? I don't think so. I wasn't born with frizzy hair... don't want to start now.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
Jubilee Home Inspections
-
08-29-2012, 08:53 PM #25
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
#16 Roosters on the countertop
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-29-2012, 09:06 PM #26
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
That, to me, sums it up the best. I admit that I will occasionally move the odd mower or trash can and that by doing so I am potentially increasing risk.
I open windows and yet I've had windows come off of tracks or become disconnected from the lifting mechanism. Fortunately, I've been able to repair every time.
Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
www.TylerHomeInspector.com
Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area
-
08-30-2012, 04:28 AM #27
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
In the real world, where I live, an 18" tall crawl space filled with 16" ducts and assorted gas and water pipes does not usually allow for the entrance of any entity larger than a cat. Perhaps in your world, Zombo.com, the ducts are in the fourth dimension and do not pose an obstacle?
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-30-2012, 04:30 AM #28
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-30-2012, 06:38 AM #29
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
[QUOTE=Aaron Miller;206895]Either you are relatively new to the profession or you don't do much work.
I probably haven't been around as long as you, but I have been in business 12 years this fall. 7 inspections last week qualifies as doing at least some work. Tuesday I used an old coal chute to get into a crawl.
Your list of hazards are good reasons to not stay long - not reasons to avoid looking in and see what is there.
ddn
-
08-30-2012, 08:30 AM #30
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Your list of hazards are good reasons to not stay long - not reasons to avoid looking in and see what is there.
Last edited by Aaron Miller; 08-30-2012 at 09:28 AM. Reason: In an effort to play well with others.
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-30-2012, 08:33 AM #31
-
08-30-2012, 09:12 AM #32
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-30-2012, 10:26 AM #33
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
This one's for rent, PM me.
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-30-2012, 10:50 AM #34
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
.
Post # 34 http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...-surprise.html
.
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.
-
08-30-2012, 02:32 PM #35
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Aaron,
Most of the crawlspaces I get into are higher than 18". Many times the ducts do obstruct access to half of the house because of limited access around the ducts. But, many times, a person can crawl under the ducts and access the other half of the foundation. Some times, I have to crawl all the way to the end, and go around the main trunk line, then crawl all the way back.
Yes we have to crawl over and under waste pipes. Gas and water pipes are common in my area (we do have indoor plumbing for the most part), but rarely pose a access problem.
Don't get me wrong, we have many houses where I can't get everywhere I would like to.
Also, please don't take my answers and questions as a jab that I consider your position wrong. I applaud your ability to hold your position and not have bounce back from clients. All I'm saying is it would be a very tough sell in my market. Just today, I had to move a trash can to get to the electrical panel. Since there wasn't a Realtor present, my single mother client would have laughed me out of the County had I told her I couldn't /wouldn't move the trash can on wheels two feet. More power to you that you can get away with it!
-
08-30-2012, 08:09 PM #36
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
To reach one screw in the E panel today, I would have had to pull nails. In Canada, the SEC's are kept in a separate section of the panel.
Aaron, I took a cue from you, left the crowbar in the truck and simply disclaimed it.
John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
www.allsafehome.ca
-
08-31-2012, 05:30 AM #37
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Most of the crawlspaces I get into are higher than 18".
Many times the ducts do obstruct access to half of the house because of limited access around the ducts. But, many times, a person can crawl under the ducts and access the other half of the foundation. Some times, I have to crawl all the way to the end, and go around the main trunk line, then crawl all the way back.
Don't get me wrong, we have many houses where I can't get everywhere I would like to.
Also, please don't take my answers and questions as a jab that I consider your position wrong.
I applaud your ability to hold your position and not have bounce back from clients. All I'm saying is it would be a very tough sell in my market.
Just today, I had to move a trash can to get to the electrical panel.
Last edited by Aaron Miller; 08-31-2012 at 05:34 AM. Reason: Correction
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
08-31-2012, 04:36 PM #38
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Here are a few that I couldn't go as far as I would have liked to.
-
02-14-2013, 01:54 PM #39
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Hi guys,
I did a story on this issue, with several of the commenters here being quoted. I also got a quote from an AHIT Instructor, as well as Nick Gromiko, founder of InterNACHI.
It actually is our cover story for our new edition! Some of you might find it interesting, you can check it out here: Working RE Home Inspector Edition/Spring 2013
-
02-14-2013, 03:16 PM #40
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Texas Inspector
http://www.texasinspector.com
What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety, he makes up in clarity.
-
02-14-2013, 03:29 PM #41
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
A worthy read. Keep up the good work!
-
02-14-2013, 07:07 PM #42
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Good job!
-
02-15-2013, 05:42 AM #43
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
-
02-15-2013, 06:15 AM #44
Re: When to pull the "not readily accessible" card
Darren www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
'Whizzing & pasting & pooting through the day (Ronnie helping Kenny helping burn his poots away!) (FZ)
Bookmarks