Thread: Inspection of a Home Inspectors Home

What did I find,

FPE panel in a clothes closet
NOT one GFCI anywhere
Open junctions everywhere
3 cracked windows
Garage attic obstructed by articles in garage
Electrical cover missing on condensing unit
Furnace flue disconnected in attic space
Corrosion on WH shutoff valve
NO T&P drain line connected to WH
3 inches of insulation
Carpenter ants
Anti reverse failed on garage door
Lock on garage door
Glass panel door to the garage from kitchen
Dryer vent crushed at exterior wall
No threshold on garage entry door
Master shower enclosure leaked
Every toilet loose at the floor
Corrosion on the drains below the sinks
Poor drainage at the sewer
High soil around the foundation / soil sloped towards home
+4 on the openings on the railings around the pool
7 steps to the pool deck with no handrail

NO deal killers you might say.

Conclusion: This HI must be busier than I would ever want to be to not have time to fix a few things before listing the home.

This was his garage. Guess he didn't want me in the attic.

Rick

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Looks like a painters truck.

Best

Ron

Good stuff, Rick. I know my house has a few issues, but I am pretty confident I would come out looking good compared to that. I can't deal with the pack rat syndrome. It drives me crazy.

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

What did I find,
.
Conclusion: This HI
.
Rick

.
Hope He at least had a Coupon !
.

Reminds me of the firefighters house I once did... Not one smoke alarm. Wife and several kids, too.

The cobbler's children have no shoes.

All you did was a punch list for him. Been there...done that!

I inspected a home inspector's home a while back--- it took a couple hours longer than it should have (maybe he has home's in TX as well) I inspected a building inspectors home (head inspector for the county) a few years ago, and he built the home himself a few short years prior. Lets just say he was really ticked off after he received a copy of my report.

Did a firefighters home the other day. It was a 2 level home with all of the bedrooms being upstairs. The only smoke detector was located in the main floor nowhere near a bedroom. I am an ex firefighter, my smoke detector started beeping the other day so I disconnected it.........I'll hook it back up one of these days. The other firefighter had kids, I do not... everyone's got to take their chances somewhere.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

--my smoke detector started beeping the other day so I disconnected it.........I'll hook it back up one of these days.. everyone's got to take their chances somewhere.

.
Did you know the Victim ?
.
He was a quiet man that always waved as he cut his yard, and kept to himself.

I figured that was coming. I thought you were writing jibberish until the 2nd read through........good one Billy.

Do an HVAC guys house sometime, they usually have really crappy HVAC equipment.

Whew, for a minute I thought you'd been at my home!

Actually, slowly but surely, I'm installing GFCIs; checking cracks; repairing downspouts...

My water heaters look good...sort of, well, not really.

I will have to say that as I fireman, I do have several smoke/heat detectors that are wired to a central monitoring station. I mean, I do have a wife and kids! (And by that comment I merely mean that they are all more likely than I to burn the place down with irons, curling irons, potholders on the stove, etc...)

Hey! My dryer vent is clean! Yes!

Rick, I'm thinking of selling my house... will you do the pre-listing inspection for me? I need someone to take the liability off me for all my cover up's... I'm mean "Master Electrician" and "Master Plumber" work!

Scared to fill out that sellers disclosure are we?

Give me a call and I'll inspect it for you. I'll give you my brother in law deal.

Have you been striper fishing lately? We went up to Texoma and caught out limit in about 45 minutes. Great fun but made it out for a short trip.

rick

My boat is dead so haven't been fishing anywhere lately. I'm going crazy not being able to get out. Let me know next time you head up... I'd love to join ya.

Ok, think about it, you ever see a mechanics car (usually on blocks) or a carpenters house (usually see daylight straight through the sides), or a plastic surgeons wife (ok, she's usually pretty hot but heck...),,,

get my drift

The fact that there is a non-fire rated opening made in the ceiling of the garage is a fire hazard by itself. This is also against residential building code R309, though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

The fact that there is a non-fire rated opening made in the ceiling of the garage is a fire hazard by itself. This is also against residential building code R309, though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this.

Don,

First, welcome to THE inspectors forum.

If you would, please show me what part of R309 requires fire rated opening protection in a garage ceiling.

I think you are confusing "separation" with "fire rated" walls and ceilings.

"Fire rated" is a completely different animal.

The actual code is under residential building code R309.1. Meaning: Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8 solid wood core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-min fire resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead-bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable. Door glazing must be either wire glass in a metal frame or 20-min fire resistance rated. Ducts located in the garage must be 26 gauge steel and have no openings in the garage. Other penetrations (electrical, plumbing, etc.) must be fire blocked as required for top-plates. Also, section 309.1 prohibits openings from the garage directly into a sleeping room. So in response to your question, no I am not confusing terms at all, but rather actually quoting directly from the code. Interpretations vary from state to state I'm sure and perhaps your state takes a different stand on this. Either way, flames can take out a house in less than five minutes once reaching the roof framing, thusly, any means of slowing the rapid spread of flames would be beneficial to human life! Additionally, the spread of smoke is just as deadly! Idling cars emissions and fumes/vapors from stored fuels,and or chemicals, can also be allowed to contaminate the living space air if these openings are not tightly sealed. (this can sometimes include an un-sealed entry door threshold).

Originally Posted by Don Agel

The actual code is under residential building code R309.1. Meaning:

Exactly.

Except your "Meaning:" part (if you are using that as in 'it means this')

I will add highlighting with bold, underlining and red text in the quote below:

Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8 solid wood core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-min fire resistance rated.

Only one is a fire rated, and IT IS NOT "required", it is one of the "options".

"FIRE RATED", "FIRE RATING", etc., *IS NOT* a requirement, only the specified "separation" is.

You stated "though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this", which indicates that you are one "oblivious" to the requirements of the code.

I think the correct cite for garage / attic acces is covered in IRC sections R309.1.2 and R309.2, below. No 20 min fire rated doors required, but 1/2 inch gypsum separation ....
I'll not include Georgia's exceptions to the code that permit sprinklers vice gypsum and FRT pull-downs....

R309.1.2 Other Penetrations. Penetrations through the separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion.

R309.2 Separation required. The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side. Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than 5/8-inch (15.9 mm) Type X gypsum board or equivalent. Where the separation is a floor-ceiling assembly, the structure supporting the separation shall also be protected by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board or equivalent. Garages located less than 3 feet (914 mm) from a dwelling unit

on the same lot shall be protected with not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area. Openings in these walls shall be regulated by SectionR309.1. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

Bob, as i previously stated: States take different interpretations on this. NC thankfully chooses to see that life is most important. There are contractors that have these access doors installed directly below a bedroom! Here is a link to the NC state fire marshal and building code division. http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/CodeServices/engineering_codeservices_interpretations_current_s earch.asp

This is exactly what was stated there. Look under #13 garage separations.

Also, in reviewing my copy of the 2000 international residential building code book this is almost identically stated there under R309. But last time I checked even back decades ago that was almost the same objectives stated. The single purpose of this section of the building code is designed to slow the spread of fire/smoke/vapors-gases into the living space or attic area.





Now, In response to you Jerry: Prozac might help your hostility, seek a reputable MD. for proper diagnosis and prescription medication. You took things personally!!!!! The or means that either the (1-3/8" ) "solid" wood core door, or the (1-3/8")honeycomb metal door can be used as a replacement. They also carry the same "burn through time". Simply cutting through the drywall and placing a 3/8" or 1/4" plywood access door is unacceptable and jeopardizes the health and safety of the occupants.

In addition: I sincerely hope that you wash your foot before placing it in open things.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

NC thankfully chooses to see that life is most important.

Are you implying that other states see life as unimportant?

There are contractors that have these access doors installed directly below a bedroom!

Now you are adding in a completely different aspect and code requirements. (You did not state anything about "living space" above in your other posts, nothing like trying to recover from a misconceived statement by adding new conditions.)

Here is a link to the NC state fire marshal and building code division. Welcome to NC Office of State Fire Marshal

This is exactly what was stated there. Look under #13 garage separations.

Also, in reviewing my copy of the 2000 international residential building code book this is almost identically stated there under R309. But last time I checked even back decades ago that was almost the same objectives stated. The single purpose of this section of the building code is designed to slow the spread of fire/smoke/vapors-gases into the living space or attic area.

This is from that link: (highlighting with bold, underlining, and red text are mine)

Question:

A garage is required to be separated from the dwelling and its attic area by ½-inch gypsum board (taped or blocked) applied to the garage side. What types of openings are permitted in the gypsum board membrane and what level of protection is required?

Answer:

Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable. Door glazing must be either wire glass in a metal frame or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. Ducts located in the garage must be 26 gage steel and have no openings into the garage. Other penetrations (electrical, plumbing, etc.) must be fireblocked as required for top plates. Section 309.1 prohibits openings from the garage directly into a sleeping room.

As I stated previously, and pointed out to you in the IRC, *IT DOES NOT REQUIRE* - nope, it does not - anything to be fire rated.

Now, In response to you Jerry: Prozac might help your hostility, seek a reputable MD. for proper diagnosis and prescription medication. You took things personally!!!!!

Don,

*YOU* (yeppers, *YOU* as in you personally and individually) came here and posted a stated which has proved to have been incorrect. Yet, you stated it in such a way to as to imply that *YOU* and only *YOU* knew what it meant and knew how to read it, but it turns out that *YOU* were incorrect. See the above, from *YOUR* link.

(from a previous post of *YOURS*)

though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this.

Nothing in there requires doors to be "fire rated"

By the way, you need not worry about my foot, I keep it clean as I put it in my mouth often enough, however, in many cases, *such as this*, it turns out that it is not my foot in my mouth, but your foot in your mouth.

And I really don't care if you washed it first or not.

So Jerry

I am confused

Does all this mean you agree or disagree that you need Prozac

Jerry, either does not mean you don't have to provide the same afforded protection as the fire rated door. The solid doors described would take 20 min or more time to burn through and be compromised allowing for the spread of flames and smoke. Thusly, if your material allows for 20 min or more of direct burn time then it is acceptable. Now again I'd advise you to leave your anger and hostility out of your arguments being that you are arguing point that is due to your misreading a statement. And yes, I posted a comment here in the hopes of bringing enlightenment to others, but never anticipated what I received from you. If you'd kindly remove yourself from the source of your hostility for a few and then read that paragraph again,(or ask others to read it for you) then perhaps you will read that correctly any not try to complain when others are trying to help you. Hopefully you can have a calmer, more productive day.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

Jerry, either does not mean you don't have to provide the same afforded protection as the fire rated door.

Don,

First, I believe you mean "neither", not "either".

No, it does not mean you have to provide the same protection as a fire rated door.

I gives you several choices, *ONLY ONE* is a fire rated door, and it is but one option.

The other options MAY NOT (or may) provide that same protection. If they were rated to provide that same protection, they would be "fire rated" and they are not. No way would you be allowed to use those other options in a "fire rated" wall as "fire rated" opening protection.

That is because they are not 'similar protection', and it is also because that wall or ceiling *is not* a "fire rated" wall or ceiling, nor is it required to have any "fire rating" on it.

No hostility on my part, simply bringing to your attention something you were declaring others as unknowledgeable of, yet is it something of which you are totally confused about.

You stated:

The fact that there is a non-fire rated opening made in the ceiling of the garage is a fire hazard by itself. This is also against residential building code R309, though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this.

There is nothing against the residential building code in using "a non-fire rated opening made in the ceiling of the garage", and, it is NOT "a fire hazard by itself".

With NO living space above, 1/2" gypsum board on the ceiling is all that is required *FOR SEPARATION*.

With living space above, 5/8" Type X gypsum board is all that is required on the ceiling *FOR SEPARATION*. That ceiling does not need to be, nor is it required to be, "fire rated".

"Separation" *does not equal* "fire rating" or "fire rated".

When you caulk something with 1 hour fire rated caulk, does that make it "1 hr fire rated"?

Of course not. It only makes it "caulked".

It is not "1 hr fire rated" until done in accordance with a UL design number. That UL design number specifies what goes where, how much, how thick, etc., but, the caulk, of and by itself, is simply "caulking" ... with no fire rating.

You keep dancing around the fact that you said:

The fact that there is a non-fire rated opening made in the ceiling of the garage is a fire hazard by itself. This is also against residential building code R309, though many general contractors and building inspectors are oblivious to this.

I suspect it is not what you meant to say, but, so far, you have not said that. Instead, you are steadfastly defending having said it.

If you'd open your ignorant eyeballs you'd read a 20 min fire rated door is an assembly rated for 20 min door that would afford the same protection or better than the previously stated doors. You are just further proof that ignorance in the industry is possible and CE is a definite good thing. You can argue that cows don't provide milk if you desire, but you are wrong and just are blind to what's in front of you. Do you think that this whole section of building code is there for nothing? Was it designed to simply say: you may or may not use a fire rated door here? And the most ironic part of this whole topic here is that you continue to argue. Good luck with that guy I wish you the best. Might as well make a section of building code stating you may or may not use padded toilet seats! lol And this site needs a LMAO icon. Sry, this is they best they have for you big guy. lol

Originally Posted by Don Agel

If you'd open your ignorant eyeballs you'd read a 20 min fire rated door is an assembly rated for 20 min door that would afford the same protection or better than the previously stated doors.

Don,

Me open my eyeballs?

'Tis you who needs to learn to read before posting, then learn to read after posting, then learn to read before stating the same incorrect thing over and over.

At least *THIS TIME* you are changing your wording to come closer to what the code says, but further from what you said first.

To wit:

a 20 min fire rated door is an assembly rated for 20 min door that would afford the same protection or better than

That's been my point I have been trying to get you to see all along.

That a 20 minuter fire rated door *IS NOT REQUIRED*, it is but *one of the options*, and, yes, that door "would afford the same protection or better than" ... you typed it, all you have to do now is read what you typed ... "or better than".

Do you see it yet? There is no requirement for a 20 minute fire rated door, and, yes, a 20 minute fire rated door would perform as well as "or better than" (your words) the other options listed, but the other options are still listed as being acceptable.

Do you think that this whole section of building code is there for nothing?

Nope.

Do *YOU* think it is there for providing a "fire rated" wall or ceiling?

If you do, well, that ignorant label you threw around seems to fit you quite well.

Was it designed to simply say: you may or may not use a fire rated door here?

That *IS* pretty much how it is written, isn't it? Nice of you to finally notice.

What it is saying is:

"
Answer:

Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable.

"

I.e., you can use *any of* the following:

a) a 1-3/8 inch solid core wood door

b) a 1-3/8 inch honeycomb core steel door

c) a 20 minute fire resistance rated door.

Did you catch that?

Option c) *IS NOT REQUIRED*, neither is option a) or option b).

Option c) *is allowed*, yes, but so is option a) and option b).

Don, seems to me that you need to hone up on your reading skills, then on your comprehension skills, then apply those to what you post.

Regarding the padded toilet seat comment of yours ... that's like saying the code would need to say you could use a 2 hour fire resistance rated door for that house/garage door in the dwelling unit.

No coded needed for that, the answer is: "Of course you can." It is not "required", but "Of course you can." use it.

Sheesh! You really are not THAT "ignorant", are you?

Jerry, the funniest thing i see is that you have litigation consultant next to your name. Yet again you are ignorant. The NCHILB agrees with the need for a min 20 min fire separation between these two areas as does the NC state fire marshal. Even the Army corp of engineers federal residential construction adhere to these standards or better. But feel free to argue with someone else guy cause I'm done trying to discuss a simple topic with someone who obviously cannot comprehend it. It's like trying to discuss quantum physics with Corky. (no offense intended to Corky!) Good luck to you in the future as well and I hope you learn bliss with yourself and your ignorance.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

Jerry, the funniest thing i see is that you have litigation consultant next to your name. Yet again you are ignorant.

Don,

You really like using that term "ignorant" don't you. Maybe you can provide some different back up for your argument, then.

The NCHILB agrees with the need for a min 20 min fire separation between these two areas as does the NC state fire marshal.

Let's see, go back up a couple of posts, in fact, go back up to your post with the link you provided (I made the link work when I quoted you, so you could go to my post, just to make it easier), click on the State Fire Marshall link, and show me in there where the State Fire Marshall says that.

I showed you in that link where he does not say that, you show me where it does.

Good luck to you in the future as well and I hope you learn bliss with yourself and your ignorance.

There you are using that term again. Maybe it's the only word you know? You certainly do not seem able to read what you post, nor what the State Fire Marshall said in the link you provided.

Are you illiterate, or do you act that way on purpose?

How does that old saying go: "opinions are like Jerry Peck......everybody has one"

You do what you want to do, big guy, with what ever you think you know. I'm tired of having an unwanted battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

I'm tired of having an unwanted battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Your problem in the battle of wits is the lack thereof on your part.

I keep asking for you to show me (all of us here) what you keep saying, but you have yet to do so, and (it seems) are declining from doing so.

So be it.

I posted exactly as it stated in the code book! You have a different interpretation on the code as I can obviously see! In your opinion it appears that the code was designed to give examples of acceptable doors? The code states that a fire-rating of 20 minutes minimum is required for the openings of doors at the garage to living space separations. You feel free to read into whatever you like but that is the fact. The fire-rated doors refer to other manufactured assemblies that meet or exceed the 20 min fire rating that the prior two doors permit. it would take 20 min or more to burn through the first two doors mentioned. So, please, feel free to cut a hole in your fire rated drywall ceiling of your garage and place a thin piece of plywood for the convenience of accessing the above storage area ,and after the potential fire ravages your home and claims the lives of you and/or members of your family before safe evacuation is possible, please revert back to this topic. Ok? Might as well place a screen at this location or a single pane of glass for easy viewing. Do whatever you so desire. I gave you exactly what was stated and how mine, the licensing board of NC Home Inspectors, the NC division of engineering building code Council, and the NC state fire Marshall's takes are on it. If you are still having trouble seeing that the first two doors stated have 20 minute or longer fire burn through resistance then you do your own research cause I certainly am through trying to explain to you anything, any longer. I have explained myself clearly and precisely but you refuse to clean your orifices and absorb the obvious! So, good luck and really consider seeking that Prozac prescription.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

I posted exactly as it stated in the code book! You have a different interpretation on the code as I can obviously see!

Sorry, Don, but *I* did not "interpret it".

I only posted what was in the book to, and what was in that link, and it simply does not say what you are trying to spin it to say.

Go back to what I've been telling you over and over again - READ!

Learn to read the words. Read what is says. Don't, as you say, interpret it, just simply read it.

It does not say what you are trying to make it say.

If you need help ... let's start here:

See Spot run. See Dick run, See Jane run.

Now ... Is Dick chasing Spot? Is Jane chasing Dick? Is Spot running from Dick or Jane? Did Spot run first?

Tell me the story you see in there.

Don, I am afraid that I am going to have to agree with Jerry. I do not believe it is really a matter of interpretation but more so for the specific application. The code is giving the options for garage only when there into the attic that is open over the entire house or through a wall itself. As for the comment that it is put in bedrooms I believe that is a total separate issue. Otherwise we will have to take all of the attic disappearing stairs out as they are only 1/4" thick plywood. The code is listing options which does include a 20 minute rating door. The 1 3/8 door is NOT rated but it can be the equivalent of a 20 minute door.

You are correct that a fire can go through the thin plywood pretty quick but the code that you quoted only applies to the garage. I am a General Contractor in NC and a HI so I am involved with the codes everyday.

As the old saying states: you can't teach an old dog new tricks

Here are some links to others more enlightened than yourself. And again, I ask you another question: if the use of drywall is to create a 20 min or greater fire preventative barrier at this separation, and fire blocking is required, wouldn't you think the aforementioned doors would carry at least the safe fire resistant value as the drywall required and fire blocking? Wouldn't everyone in the entire world most likely be able to grasp this concept before you? If there was an actual place and a ticket to the planet Vulcan I'd pay your way just so you could use some simple logic. What ever though bud cause after these links I am done trying to help you learn to walk on this one. I'm thinking this language might translate better for you: dur duh ur gee dur umph duh um doh.


Here are the links:http://www.juneau.lib.ak.us/cddftp/d...Protection.pdf

http://emmetrecycling.org/bldg/CodeC...onnections.pdf
And I quote the guy from the above link:
"Providing code compliant separation between attached garages and residential space will provide a homeowner with a safe separation between all those hazards located in the garage and the interior of the home. This code compliant separation will provide some time, if needed in case of a fire, to allow those in the home to escape the building, and if the fire is discovered soon enough, allow the fire department time to attempt to contain the fire, and its damage, to the garage. Finally, providing code complaint separation will allow the building inspector to give his or her approval when
inspecting a garage - house separation wall and/or ceiling assembly."

http://www.muni.org/iceimages/bsd/handoutrd14.pdf
The above even shows HVAC fire separation requirements. But yet less than 20 min fire rated material is allowed in this separation between the garage and living space you say? Even the use of 3/8 inch to 1/4 inch plywood pull down access ladders Jerry?


Burlington Vermonts construction permitting department states:
In every situation where you have a higher hazard space beside, under, or over another spaces being occupied, a separation requirement by way of hours. The hour ratings are determined by the Underwriters Laboratory (UL), and refer to the maximum time for rescue and escape based on the building's design, material composition, air space, and fasteners. The minimum is one hour separation of private garages from living space, public garages from living space and other uses of the building, living space from different living spaces, etc.
This is found at the following link:
http://www.dpw.ci.burlington.vt.us/build/faq/

But hey Jerry, by all means, place a non fire resistant door in this location you say?

On we go.......

Residential Code of New York State
Section R309, Garages & Carport Separations
Details of the most common residential installation techniques.

Central Chapter Home

Return to Code Update

"§R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into
a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings
between the garage and residence shall be equipped with a 3/4 hour fire-
protection-rated door assembly equipped with a self-closing device.
§R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts penetrating
the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be
constructed of a minimum No. 26 gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel and shall
have no openings into the garage."

This Jerry is text taken from NYS building officials conference found at the following website:
http://www.nysboc.com/separation/separation.html
A 3/4" fire rated door assembly did that state? Wow you free education is probably too complex to grasp. Need a break? Fine I understand you need time to absorb information at your advanced stage in life, so I will pause for a second or so in the linkages. Allow for popcorn and bathroom trips. But I warn you Jerry if after all the time I have spent to enlighten you is for nothing it would only prove that you may be the only man in history to ever have the potential of losing at the Special Olympics.

I have read Florida's interpretation of this code and I see where you have received your side from. As i stated that different states have different interpretations. Yours is concerned not with a fire separation as is the concern of a few other states. I think this is taking a side based on money rather than human life. But every state has there interpretations. NC, my state, and NY my former state, both have the wisdom to state if fire resistant material is required in every other separation at this location then any opening such as a door would have to have the same fire resistant rating. Even recessing the commonly used pull down ladders and installing a layer of 1/2 inch or greater fire resistant drywall to the bottom face flush with the drywall ceiling and having fire resistant seals can achieve a minimum 20 min fire rating. But hey, if this flimsy thin wood pull down ladder is acceptable than why is not the same thickness plywood not acceptable as a wall and ceiling covering in the garage? Answer-------It doesn't provide an acceptable time of preventing the spread of flames from reaching the framing system thusly obtaining a very large fuel source.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QYXDGWNG4ysC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=separa tion+requirements+between+garages+and+living+space &source=web&ots=We7beem4Vv&sig=hmhwRiC7wWsk5r3CuoQ Dq6rCj9w&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=re sult
Look at page 193

Well, Jerry, actually looked and it it 11:54 PM and I am tired of trying to defend myself or my statements to you. I am backed by the jurisdiction that I am licensed and work in and could really care about what you think or feel about it. Frankly if your state fails to translate the code in this manner I fear for the safety of the people who live there more than what you think. And the worst thing is that easy access of this area can usually be accessed just as easily from an interior installed access door elsewhere than the garage and would still afford the same 20 min or greater fire resistant rating. And one more time for the learning impaired:
If fire blocking and fire-rated components are required in every other separation between the living space and the garage why wouldn't the doors, a penetration/opening in these fire rated materials, carry at least the same fire resistant rating as the other materials? ???????????????????
I leave you for ever with that thought and hope maybe one day a crack to the wall you are against allows some seepage of this concept through. Good luck.............

Mitch, I was only referring to the garage when citing this code, and am stating that the flimsy pull down ladders are not equivalent to the solid doors or 20 minute fire rated doors.
The following was copied directly from the NC state Fire Marshal's office in Raleigh NC. To which regulates your license as well as mine. I of course highlighted and bold faced where necessary.



NC Department of Insurance
Office of the State Fire Marshal - Engineering Division
1202 Mail Service Center, Raleigh, NC 27699-1202
919-661-5880
Garage Separation
Code: 2006 Residential Code Date: October 1, 2007
Section: R309
Question:
A garage is required to be separated from the dwelling and its attic area by ½-inch gypsum board (taped or blocked) applied to the garage side. What types of openings are permitted in the gypsum board membrane and what level of protection is required?
Answer:
Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable. Door glazing must be either wire glass in a metal frame or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. Ducts located in the garage must be 26 gage steel and have no openings into the garage. Other penetrations (electrical, plumbing, etc.) must be fireblocked as required for top plates. Section 309.1 prohibits openings from the garage directly into a sleeping room.


Again guys:
I have not stated anything other than the fact and seeing that the time is now 12:26 Am I have again suffered for my beliefs and convictions.................SO to all a good night!

When NY State adopted its Residential Code in 2003 (based on the 2000 IRC) and again in 2007 (based on the 2003 IRC), it changed the ICC model code at R309.1 to read:

RCNYS R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with a 3/4 -hour fire-protection-rated door assembly equipped with a self-closing device.

They took out the solid wood and steel door examples, upped the fire rating from 20 minutes to 3/4 hour, and added the requirement for a self-closing device. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but in NY State they are clearly concerned with the fire rating of the door assembly.

They did something similar when they changed the ICC model code's separation requirements in R309.2. Here is how NY's version reads:

RCNYS R309.2 Separation required. The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by horizontal or vertical separations conforming to Sections R309.2.1 and R309.2.2.

R309.2.1 Vertical separations. Where partitions are used to separate an attached garage from a living space or its attic, the partition assembly shall have a 3/4 -hour fire-resistance rating.

Exception: In lieu of providing partitions that have a 3/4 -hour fire-resistance rating, one layer of 5/8 -inch thick, type-X, gypsum board may be installed on the garage side and one layer of 1/2 -inch, type X, gypsum board may be installed on the opposite side. Application shall be in accordance with Section R702.3.

R309.2.2 Horizontal separations. Where horizontal construction is used to separate the garage from the living space or its attic, such construction shall be protected with one layer of 5/8 -inch thick, type X, gypsum board, installed in accordance with the requirements of Section 805.1. Openings in horizontal separations shall not be permitted except where the residence is otherwise protected by vertical separations. Where the horizontal separation is a floor-ceiling assembly, the structure supporting the separation shall also be protected by not less than 5/8 -inch (15.87 mm) type X gypsum board or equivalent.

In this section they changed the model code's prescriptive requirement of not less than 1/2 inch gypsum between the residence and attic (applied to the garage side) to the performance requirement of a 3/4 hour rated assembly.

In both of the above cases, the focus of these sections is now on fire-rated performance of the vertical wall that separates the residence from the garage. The horizontal separation continues to be prescriptive instead of performance based, but the IRC commentary for R309.2 clearly indicates that the reason for specifying 5/8 inch type X gypsum is to increase the fire endurance of the gypsum to at least 40 minutes and when you consider the assembly that includes the floor joists and sub-flooring, it is close to one hour.

Thank you Brandon for your posting on this matter! So many interpretations out there and am glad to see the higher end shinning from where I was born and raised!

Thank you Don. If you go back and take the time to read your first couple of posts on this subject and Jerry's response to them, you might come to realize that what he said is correct. The ICC model code does not require a minimum 20 minute rated door -- it specifies three things, any one of which would be acceptable (but only one is rated). The steel and wood doors are not required to be "rated", but one could infer, as you have done, that they were intended to be equivalent to the 20 minute rated door. That is not what the code actually says -- it is your interpretation of the code (and I think that interpretation is a reasonable one). Also R309.2 is not talking about fire ratings -- it is prescribing specific separation requirements -- although increasing the fire rating is behind those prescriptive separation requirements.

NY State, as New Yorkers like to do, cuts right to the chase, and takes all interpretation out of it. They say "we want a 3/4 hour rated assembly" there. Well, that's a gross oversimplification. What's really going on is that NY is trying to put more performance based requirements in the code to allow for more flexibility and innovation in meeting them.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

So Jerry

I am confused

Does all this mean you agree or disagree that you need Prozac

What, you don't understand Peck-Latin? Obviously there is something wrong with your friggin' comprehension, it's as clear as mudd.

Guys this is all that residential codes are about is the interpretations. Isn't that why there a a Bible with many various versions and religions present? My argument rests with these questions: If fire resistant materials are required in every other section of this separation between the garage and residence than why would not a door located in this separation fall under the same fire resistant expectations? Is it not clear? Would one armor plate 70% of a military vehicle and send it into the line of fire? Thusly I would not add fire resistant materials to almost all of my separation and leave a few open to compromise of this standard. I offer this challenge to all.......take a propane torch and time how long it takes to burn through the called for gypsum board, solid wood core or honeycombed metal doors of 1 3/8" thickness and a 20 minute fire rated door. Your results may be somewhat similar times. But in a very rapid time the torch will burn through the current attic pull down ladders installed that are not of those required construction. I think it burned through in under a minute the last time I tried on a pull-down ladder I removed! Fellas, once the flames reach the roof framing the house is almost immediately engulfed in flames and smoke claiming anyone and anything in it's path. Interpret this how you may but I am trained and experienced that this unit has to meet the same fire resistance requirements as those doors stated in R309 as it is a door located at this separation. I have 4 more inspection reports to finish before lunch tomorrow (today thanks to these postings), so I am afraid I am done posting for a while. Interpret how you like, voice your opinions as we all will, and maybe one day a federal entity can be created to oversee these and other concerns and alleviate the troubles with interpreting them. And where is that dragging ass, should have called it a night hours ago, ready for a vacation icon?

Originally Posted by Don Agel

Guys this is all that residential codes are about is the interpretations.

Don,

The IRC is not about "interpretations", it is about the way it is worded and what it actually states.

That is why it says this: (underlining is mine)
From the 2006 IRC.
- SECTION R104
- - DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE BUILDING OFFICIAL
- - - R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions. Such interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in conformance with the intent and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically provided for in this code.

Then, we go to the 'official' interpretation - the IRC Commentary:
- R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.
Commentary - (underlining is mine)
- - Openings to sleeping rooms from garages are not allowed, since a person might not wake up in time if there was a hazard from carbon monoxide fumes or smoke from the garage. Openings from the garage are only permitted into rooms that are not used for sleeping purposes. Those openings must be protected by the installation of a door complying with the provisions of this section. 1 3/8-inch (35 mm) thick solid wood doors, solid or honeycomb steel doors and 20-minute fire rated doors are the only acceptable doors for use in the opening between the garage and the dwelling unit.

From the horse's mouth ... THERE IS NOT REQUIREMENT FOR a fire rated door, it is but ONE OF the options.

While you are praising Brandon for what New York has done, remember that NC did not do the same thing - neither has the ICC in the IRC.

If you are resting your case on what New York did when it modified and changed the IRC, you have failed to sufficiently defend your position and have thus lost all of your marbles to the other players.

Jerry you are of course welcome to your opinion. This separation was designed for the intension of slowing the spread of flames/smoke/and toxic vapors. But you feel free to argue with word play all you want. The simple fact here is that if a 20 min or more fire separation is required here then why in God's name would you dream it ok to compromise it and add a thin-not fire resistant for 20 min or more opening in this separation? As I previously challenged you to use a torch and burn time test the various doors to prove the length is compatible (not just an ironic twist to words) and that your attic pull down ladder is breached almost immediately. You big guy can do whatever you so choose, but I am done arguing with you on the matter. You are wrong as is your state's interpretation of this code. You can sacrifice human life and safety for your "ignorance" (Just seems to fit nice with you Jerry-can't imagine why), so use your 1/8, 3/8, ect. pull down attic ladder. Dude use a gasoline filled air mattress as yours, I could care less!. I am now wondering if the home Rick Hurst inspected was yours. The guy on the left in the brown suit reminds me of you, and yes the ground symbolizes something quite different.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

The simple fact here is that if a 20 min or more fire separation is required here

Don,

The simple fact is you apparently do not have the ability to read what is written and comprehend what is written.

First and foremost, "The simple fact here is" (your words) that a 20 minute or more fire separation *IS NOT* *REQUIRED*.

What on earth is it going to take to get you to understand that.

Do I need to read it to you (post it here) word-by-word, explaining what each word means?

Crimeny, now you are beginning to sound like Joe B.

In the state of Florida you may be correct that a separation of 20 min is not needed. Fine, enjoy that! Every state interprets the IBC differently as I already stated over and over again. Even further every local jurisdiction stretches things further even down on the contractor level. But the basic design of the separation was intended as a smoke and flame barrier and not as a sound barrier thusly the entire scope of that section of the code was designed to slow the progression of these for a period of time. Argue that they didn't use a word you preferred to hear stating only these three types of door. Whatever, big guy, you are wrong! The former 2 doors have equal or greater burn through times. The third door gives a minimum standard for "ANY" other door use in this separation. I'm outta here.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

In the state of Florida you may be correct that a separation of 20 min is not needed.

Not sure what you are not understanding here.

We are talking about the IRC. The IRC *does not require*, plain and simple as that - *does not REQUIRE* a fire rated door between the garage and the house.

You brought in the NC IRC. The NC IRC and the NC SFM statements *does not require*, plain and simple as that - *does not REQUIRE* a fire rated door between the garage and the house.

The former 2 doors have equal or greater burn through times.

Maybe, maybe not. If that were known for sure, they would be "fire rated" and they are not. They are simply referred to by their construction type. not and "fire rated" rating. Empirical design, if you will. What has proven to provide at least the minimum "separation" being sought. Not the minimum "fire rating" as there is no "fire rating" to the door, the wall, or the ceiling.

It really is quite that simple.

The third door gives a minimum standard for "ANY" other door use in this separation.

Say what?

The third door give the third option, and that third option is that you can, yes indeedy, you CAN, use a 20 minute fire rated door. Heck, you can, yep, nothing says you cannot, you CAN use a 2 hour rated door.

However, nothing in there says, or even implies, that *ALL DOOR OPTIONS* must be fire rated.

I think you need to go back to my "See Spot run. See Dick run. See Jane run." example explain the story you think it is telling you. Let us know what it says, would you.

Another inspection on a HI home this morning. The guy freaked out saying he didn't know nothing about the inspection today. He called his agent and was ranting that I was taking too many notes and pictures. This was 15 minutes into the inspection.

She asked him to leave. He told me he was going to the store to get something to drink and some cigarettes.

He came back with a 12-pack of Bud, and sat on the couch drinking one after the other.

This was approx. 9:30am.

I could post pics that would fill up the bandwidth Brian probably has left but I won't.

Just the one of the certificate still so proudly hung on that paneling covered with a 1/4in. of nicotine.

How much could a couple of fluorescent bulbs have cost anyway?

rick

Ahh, I need help.

Is this OK in a garage?

No, the attic pull down ladder isn't allowed unless it is faced with at least 1/2" drywall. 5/8" is required in a few states as well. As you can read up higher as to the comments about this. Jerry, and a few other inspectors have other notions about this. Everyone of these I see gets written and corrected after my inspections. Check also to make sure that the entry door from the garage into the house is not a hollow wood door or have glass that is not rated to withstand a minimum of 20 min fire-rating. Some states read the residential code 309 sections differently than they should. Unfortunately it may take documenting a few tragic deaths that could have been prevented in those states before someone reads those paragraphs as they were supposed to be intended. But regardless of your state's interpretation of this code you should always advise your client that this creates a potential of disaster from fire which can be easily corrected. ((Sometimes facing the door with fire rated drywall, or even relocating the access to a location inside the the house and closing the hole with fire rated drywall.))

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

Ahh, I need help.

Is this OK in a garage?

Darren,

Many garages have storage like that, and worse, in the garage, some even have a/c units like that too - even wired like that one too.

Okay, now just what are you asking about?

The pull-down stair?

Don gave some good information, along with a bunch of incorrect information, but that was to be expected given *HIS* interpretation that most states don't know what they are doing in interpreting it, even though his SFM does not say what he says. Oh well, read it and beware.

The part about 1/2" gypsum board being applied to the bottom of the stairway cover when closed was correct. The ceiling should be 1/2" gypsum board, and the opening cut through the ceiling should thus be equivalent - i.e., 1/2" gypsum board attached to the bottom side of the wood for the pull-down stair.

Jerry now is saying to have drywall applied to the ladder why?
Exactly.........to keep it fire rated! So even though he believes this not to be necessary he now is stating to place this there. Amazing.................truly. And everything in what I placed in my link is stating a fire rating is required there of a min of 20 mins. As is every other part of the separation as well as doors and openings. This is the stance that NC takes in the matter: (The bold-face and underlining are by NC and not myself)

NC Department of Insurance
Office of the State Fire Marshal - Engineering Division
1202 Mail Service Center, Raleigh, NC 27699-1202
919-661-5880
Garage Separation
Code: 2006 Residential Code Date: October 1, 2007
Section: R309
Question:
A garage is required to be separated from the dwelling and its attic area by ½-inch gypsum board (taped or blocked) applied to the garage side. What types of openings are permitted in the gypsum board membrane and what level of protection is required?
Answer:
Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable. Door glazing must be either wire glass in a metal frame or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. Ducts located in the garage must be 26 gage steel and have no openings into the garage. Other penetrations (electrical, plumbing, etc.) must be fireblocked as required for top plates. Section 309.1 prohibits openings from the garage directly into a sleeping room.

Now back to Corky,
Jerry earlier stated:

Jerry Peck Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Agel
The actual code is under residential building code R309.1. Meaning:


Exactly.

Except your "Meaning:" part (if you are using that as in 'it means this')

I will add highlighting with bold, underlining and red text in the quote below:
Quote:

Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8 solid wood core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-min fire resistance rated.

Only one is a fire rated, and IT IS NOT "required", it is one of the "options".

"FIRE RATED", "FIRE RATING", etc., *IS NOT* a requirement, only the specified "separation" is.

So, if the separation requires it then oh brilliant one is not a door, window, or opening part of the separation when they exist in the separation?? Duh yes! Hence making every part of that separation have the same fire rating resistance!!!!!!!!!




You Jerry, are wrong.

WOW, I am impressed! I thought Don would have bailed on this long ago...

We have a similar concept with stucco systems being either "Fire Rated" or "Fire resistant". My simple understanding of these two concepts is that fire resistant refers to the specific material in use, and also some assemblies, where as fire rated refers to the assembly as a whole, and that the minimum standard cited in the code would apply to all options.

Therefore, the opening should carry a fire resistance standard specific to the opening material that would ensure continuance of the "resistence" of the assembly as a whole.

A fire rated ceiling assembly would need to resist the passage of a sustained fire for at least 1 hour, would it not? I don't ever remember seeing an assembly that was "Rated" for only 20 minutes. Where as a fire Resistant assembly need only contain that fire for a minimum of 20 minutes. Fire ratings are granted by the UL, as stated in a post above, both to products and to assemblies. I don't know who determines fire resistance, manufacturers?

I'm pretty sure Darren left out the smiley face by mistake.

Originally Posted by John Carroll

I don't know who determines fire resistance, manufacturers?

Testing to published standard tests.

UL does it, FM does it, other do it.

A given assembly is tested, its rating is based on its failure point backed up to the next lower rating (given all the included safety factors, etc.).

Don,

You need to learn to read what people write, even yourself.

You need to learn to comprehend what is written, even when written by yourself.

Originally Posted by Don Agel

Jerry now is saying to have drywall applied to the ladder why?

Because 1/2" gypsum board is required for the ceiling "separation", and installing a pull down ladder makes a big hole in that ceiling "separation", and that big hole needs to be 'made whole' by covering the wood pull down stair cover with 1/2" gypsum board.

Exactly.........to keep it fire rated!

There *IS NOT FIRE RATING* to be kept.

Are you part of "Dumb and Dumber"?

This is the stance that NC takes in the matter: (The bold-face and underlining are by NC and not myself)

NC Department of Insurance
Office of the State Fire Marshal - Engineering Division
1202 Mail Service Center, Raleigh, NC 27699-1202
919-661-5880
Garage Separation
Code: 2006 Residential Code Date: October 1, 2007
Section: R309
Question:
A garage is required to be separated from the dwelling and its attic area by ½-inch gypsum board (taped or blocked) applied to the garage side. What types of openings are permitted in the gypsum board membrane and what level of protection is required?
Answer:
Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. A standard frame and hardware (dead bolt, peep hole, etc.) are acceptable. Door glazing must be either wire glass in a metal frame or 20-minute fire-resistance rated. Ducts located in the garage must be 26 gage steel and have no openings into the garage. Other penetrations (electrical, plumbing, etc.) must be fireblocked as required for top plates. Section 309.1 prohibits openings from the garage directly into a sleeping room.

That ("including attic access) is in "NC", not in "the IRC" which is what we are discussing.

However, for your sake, and to try to explain it to you ONE MORE TIME ...

(my highlighting is with red text)

Answer:
Doors, including attic access, are required to be either 1-3/8-inch solid core wood, 1-3/8 honeycomb core steel, or 20-minute fire-resistance rated.

Even in your reference above, it *DOES NOT REQUIRE* those to be "fire-resistance rated". That "20-minute fire-resistance rated" aspect *IS ONLY ONE OF* the stated options.

I don't know why you cannot see that, not if you are able to read and comprehend what you read.

You Jerry, are wrong.

No, Don, you are the one who is incorrect.

As I've stated many times before in trying to help you understand what you are unable to understand: "Even in your reference above, it *DOES NOT REQUIRE* those to be "fire-resistance rated". That "20-minute fire-resistance rated" aspect *IS ONLY ONE OF* the stated options." (repeated from above, and repeated from previous posts).

Don, can you not grasp the meaning of the word "or"?

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

I'm pretty sure Darren left out the smiley face by mistake.

Yeah; I just wanted to get this thing going again.

BTW; the A/C goes into the dining room....

Darren your a bad man...........