Tex-Mex Built Home - InspectionNews

Rick Hurst · #1 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 09:08 AM

These are just a few of the defects.

Check out the view from the bathroom windows. Looks directly over into the attic space, but Bubbito added a window to have some light into the attic space.

How about the laundry area right off the dining room. Thats ok! They won't fit into the space anyway.

The side ledge at the front corner of the foundation is supposedly a place to hide your trash bags from view.

Code water shut-off valve? Whats that?

The city inspector was there at the same time as us, and I've never heard such cursing from one individual. :0

Jim Luttrall · #2 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 09:14 AM

Where did you find this one Rick?
I did not follow all of your description, maybe a few pictures are missing.
It looks like a real piece of "flippers surprise", Lots of show but no go.

Jim Luttrall · #3 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 09:18 AM

Aah, the rest of the pic. showed up. That looks like a new build, but surely it is not...
Tell Chris to get busy, he got caught standing around on camera again.

Rick Hurst · #4 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 09:42 AM

Jim,

Its a new build-mess over there in the Garland area.

BARRY ADAIR · #5 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 04:21 AM

Rick,

There goes my hood.
Your working in Gar and I'm working The Wall what's wrong with this picture.
Isn't that similar to that wife swapping show?

I'll leave things as they are if this is what your running in to.

Jerry Peck · #6 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 09:29 AM

Rick,

I'm sure you also noticed those two pipe nipples laying on top of the water heater, the ones with the groove around them?

Yeah, those are the 'heat traps' which are required to have been installed into the 'hot' and 'cold' at the tank, and, yes, the 'hot' heat trap nipple is different from the 'cold' heat trap nipple (the cold has to allow water to flow down, the hot has to allow water to flow up).

Richard Stanley · #7 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 09:45 AM

Jerry, How do those nipples work and what is the consequence of not installing them?

Rick Hurst · #8 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 10:05 AM

Barry,

I'll let you keep Garland anytime. The "Wall" is not so difficult.

Many may not know that Garland is the inspiration for "Arland", the city of which the animated Hank Hill the Propane man lives in. City of Good Ole Boys.

Rick Hurst · #9 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 10:14 AM

Jerry,

You may be getting older but you still have your eyesight. Yeah, those nipples on the water lines were not overlooked. Nipples I keep an eye out for.

That picture was more or less taken and shown to the city inspector who had put a green tag on the water heater.

While he was walking out to his vehicle to leave and we were talking, I showed the picture on my camera to him. He said a few more curse words and grabbed a red tag.

He hadn't seen these items either.

Jerry Peck · #10 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Stanley

Jerry, How do those nipples work and what is the consequence of not installing them?

Someplace I had, but cannot find it now, cut-a-way drawings and photos of heat traps showing their inner workings.

Here is all I can find right now.

The way they work, though, is there are plastic 'floats' (for lack of a better word) inside them which:

For the cold heat trap, rises (the float is lighter than the water) and seals off the top of the inlet opening so heated water cannot circulate up and out of the water heater through the cold water inlet. Yet, when hot water is needed, the pressure of the incoming water easily pushes the float down, allowing water to enter the water heater.

For the hot heat trap fitting, the float sinks (the float is heavier than the water) and seal off the bottom of the outlet opening so water cannot circulate up and out of the water heater through the hot water outlet. Yet, when hot water is needed, the pressure of the incoming water easily lifts the float off its seal at the bottom, as this float is in a cage (in the cut-a-way I saw, it may just have waterways grooved into the fitting to allow water to go around the float) and cannot go all the way to the top of the hot heat trap, letting water flow around it.

The hot and cold are different, and each must be installed properly oriented with its arrow pointing in the direction of water flow.

Richard Stanley · #11 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 05:24 PM

Iteresting. Thanks.

Jerry Peck · #12 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 05:31 PM

Richard,

I forgot to answer the part about "what is the consequence of not installing them".

The energy codes require them to reduce the stored heat loss of the hot water in the water heater by stopping the natural convention flow through the water pipes.

Lose that hot water and you have to pay to re-heat it.

Other than being a code violation and the loss of efficiency, nothing happens by not having them installed.

Richard Stanley · #13 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 05:38 PM

I suspect you meant convection. Could the lack of a nipple be why sometimes I find the cold inlet pipe very warm or even hot near the top of the heater? Code violation??

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 04-26-2007, 08:38 PM

"I suspect you meant convection."

Yes I did, but I used a real word, so spell check said it was okay. Who I to argue with spell check?

"Could the lack of a nipple be why sometimes I find the cold inlet pipe very warm or even hot near the top of the heater? Code violation??"

Not the lack of a nipple, the lack of a heat trap.

The old fashion way to make a heat trap is to come up out of the water heater about 9" or so, elbow the pipe horizontally for 6", elbow the pipe down for 6", elbow the pipe back out horizontally.

Now CONVECTION will not get past the heat trap as the hot water rising basically stops at the top of the loop. Yes, there is some loss of heat radiating from the pipe which is looped, and that is replaced with more heat as it radiates the heat and cools slightly, but the greater heat loss from the CONVECTION flow is stopped.

The heat trap nipples reduce that heat trap loss down even more.

If you have a single story house where the pipes come up out from the floor, to the water heater, then back down to the under the floor (slab, crawlspace or basement), you have a built-in heat trap. If the pipes, even just one, goes up from the water heater, that's when you have a heat loss problem and need heat traps. BUT, the heat trap nipples DO reduce heat loss even from that built-in heat trap by eliminating the heat loss from the pipe. That heat loss is lost (wasted) energy and is why it is in the energy codes.

This is from the IECC (International Energy Conservation Code).
- 504.4 Heat traps.Water-heating equipment not supplied with integral heat traps and serving noncirculating systems shall be provided with heat traps on the supply and discharge piping associated with the equipment.

Code violation? Yes, most likely, if there is an energy code in force and if there is not hot water re-circulating system (the heat traps would be useless with a hot water recirculating system, well, the cold inlet one would be okay, but there would be no need for the hot heat trap, and, in fact, it might make a noise similar to water hammer whenever the pump was running).

Richard Stanley · #15 (**permalink**) 04-27-2007, 07:39 AM

Thanks again.

Eric Shuman · #16 (**permalink**) 04-29-2007, 10:54 AM

Rick Wrote:

"That picture was more or less taken and shown to the city inspector who had put a green tag on the water heater.

While he was walking out to his vehicle to leave and we were talking, I showed the picture on my camera to him. He said a few more curse words and grabbed a red tag."

An excellent analogy to tell the builders when they argue with your client about how they don't need a third party inspection because the city inspector has already been there and everything passed! I am so sick of hearing the superintendents tell people this.

Last month I had a client tell me that the builder refused to replace a window that needed to be safety glass because " the city inspector did not write it up so it wasn't a problem."

I gave the client the phone number for the B.O. office and told the client that at the walkthrough to ask the builder to call the city inspector right then and there and see what they had to say about this.

The builder replaced the window.

Eric

Dom D'Agostino · #17 (**permalink**) 04-29-2007, 01:34 PM

FYI:

Some water heaters have built-in heat traps and do not require those external nipples. I am not stating that this pictured unit is one of those models, just pointing out that the devices may be present (internally) in some tanks.

Since the majority of those flexible water heater supply lines (as seen in the photo) are sold in a kit with heat traps included in the package, just seeing the loose nipples nearby isn't necessarily wrong.

Dom.

Jerry Peck · #18 (**permalink**) 04-29-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

Some water heaters have built-in heat traps and do not require those external nipples.

I know, I have a builder who is getting his plumber to have the manufacturer send a letter stating that built-in heat traps are in that model AND serial number water heater.

This is because, the "installation instructions" show item 16) Heat Traps*, and then states *Optional as required.

The plumber insists, though, that the installation instructions are wrong, that the heat traps are internal.

I say 'Get a letter from the manufacturer stating that this model number and serial number has built-in heat traps, or install the ones which were supplied "optional"'.

I'm waiting on that letter, waiting, ...