HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion

Just thought ya'll might like to see how you are being bashed by HVAC guys.

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Keep the fire in the fireplace.

Do you have the user name and password to get onto this site?

I created a username and password on the site and still cannot access it. The area in which the post appears is for "pros only".

I could not get in either

I got in to the point where I can apply to be a member of the Professional Technical section, but you must have at least 30 posts to even apply for that, along with other crap.

They bash others, then prohibit those others from responding. Like Groucho said, I would not want to be a member of any club who would allow me in (or something like that).

Oh well.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

Do they all think that leaving the secondary port on the airhandler cabinet plugged up is ok? Many around here need to figure out what that is for.

Odd. If we're all so dumb, how come corrections frequently need to be made...... by them?

Would that make them......... dumber?

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix

I am not condoning the actions of anyone who lumps an entire group into one category. (unless it's liberals...) The fact is that these fellows may have been exposed to home inspectors or home inspector reports that are laughable.

More than a few really crappy home inspectors are out there, stealing from the public. It's a fact.

It'll get worse with licensing unless the remaining states put some teeth into the requirements. It's a transient profession where only a small percentage of aspiring inspectors stay in the profession long enough to gain any proficiency.

Some have been in for years and still know nothing, or worse, they know that they're screwing the client for the realtor's sake.

It's hard to get mad at people when they may be right.

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Chad Fabry, Rochester, NY
StructureSmart Home Inspections, Inc.
www.structuresmart.com

jmac00
Professional Member Join Date: May 2000
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Posts: 1,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by hearthman

jmac, you ought to rethink using such harsh language talking about killing people. This is now a permanent record of you. Not cool threatening people. Now, who's the dope???


Yep, we have a wall of shame. We bash our own, because MOST OF US take a great deal of pride in our abilities and our industry. The very fact that if we "screw up" people could actually DIE !!!!! is why we complain about "hacks" When a home inspector screws up, the only thing that happens is you walk away with the clients money and NO RESPONSIBILITY.


oooh reeeally??? what part of what I said is NOT-TRUE?? and WHO exactly did I threaten???? print it out and send it to your lawyer.......dope??????????

If someone in our trade doesn't check for gas leaks, BOOM, no more home....PEOPLE DIE. If someone in our trade jumps out a safety, temporarily , on an "emergency basis" and leaves the system running so the home owner can have heat while the tech goes to get a part, and the house catches fire....people could DIE !!!!! wHAT PART OF THAT is to complicated for you

If anyone has a problem with what I wrote, PLEASE point it out to me

You keep telling everyone that Home Inspectors are "GENERALISTS". Well for generalists your boys come off as "all knowing" and that what ever an inspector says is etched in stone and should not be questioned.

You guys don't get sued for "deal breaking" you get sued for being incompetent. Home inspectors get sued for shooting there mouth off about stuff they have no clue what they are talking about. Like a furnace

If people want there home "inspected" they should do four things

1) Hire a structural engineer
2) hire plumber
3) hire insulation company
4) Hire a HVAC company

in the long run they will probably save money.
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Sorry, I didn't notice this was posted in the Professionals section, which is not accessible to the public at large. I'll try to move the discussion there to a publich thread and see if we can get them to comment there. Reallly nasty people over there. I know any one of you could spend an afternoon showing pics of stupid stuff HVAC guys did. A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. I just hope we can refrain from stooping to their level and keep the dialogue professional. Stand by and I'll post a link where you can follow this.
Bob

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Keep the fire in the fireplace.

Home Inspectors - HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion

Keep an eye on this thread for awhile and let a few voice their opinions. Then, if you want to, you can post a few pics of some of the crap ya'll find. I have pointed out on HVAC-talk.com and on HeatingHelp.com that you guys send them referrals to correct problems you find yet they continue to bite the hand that feeds them. Not good business or ethics on their part.

Anyway, I'm all about everybody raising the bar and learning from each other without getting nasty. I hope everyone from here who responds to them keeps it professional and objective.

Thanks guys.
Bob

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Keep the fire in the fireplace.

And I used to think Penguins were cute!


I doubt that this guy has ever had his opinion changed on anything, by anyone. People that can generalize in such a negative way based on limited actual experience just aren't worth the time of day. So...why bother? You'll find a few bad, and noisy, apples in any bunch.

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Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services - www.rainspect.com
Seattle, Washington

I think the work we have seen these guys do in past we don't have to worry about our jobs.

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This space is now available for sale or for lease. Contact your broker if interested. Serious inquiries only.

Yes, Chad. And there are more than a few crappy HVAC licensees out there, too. I'm not generalizing about anyone (including conservatives.) I'm saying that anyone who bashes an entire group in a general manner is ignorant. Some persons can be educated out of their ignorance. It has been my experience that those persons whose ignorance is at a level that they openly espouse it cannot have their opinions changed.

These are the persons my former comments were aimed at, Bob. I'd like to always keep my conversations on an upper level. Some persons don't deserve that level of respect. They cross that line when they insult me, not when they question me. Ignorance and bullying go hand in hand. Neither can exist unless they are tolerated.

In any endeavor there are bad, average, good, better, and best performers. Why should anyone expect our industry to be any different?

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix

I would think if you were going to hire some one to look at four things I would cross off the insulation company and hire an electrical contractor.

I guess since these are AC guys, they are more concerned with insulation than electric.

And they would pay a lot more than 4x the cost of an HI and still not have all of the home inspected.

Followed this link here from Bobs post on H talk.

Hope I can be of help down the line as I don't think stereotyping any class of trade is fair.

Thanks for the link Bob would have never known this site existed.

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Measured Performance more than just a buzzword

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Jerry McCarthy
Construction Consultant
www.expertbuildingconsultants.com

Welcome David R.

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix

Yes Welcome David.

Well welcome to you as well Bill.

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Measured Performance more than just a buzzword

Thanks for the welcome Thom.

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Measured Performance more than just a buzzword

i admit that i bashed hi's in that thread. you have to be a pro member to get there. i wish all home inspectors would just call a hvac tech and for me its 85 dollars for a service call and one hour, i can check the sys and tell you every thing you need to know in that time frame. why not?

Why not call a plumber, electrician, structural engineer, roofer, etc. etc. etc?

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Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. -Robert Orben, magician and author (b. 1927) / www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

Chris EthridgeChris, it comes down to economics. Yes, we could arrange to have all the appropriate trades meet us at the property and get 6 or more specific reports to report back to the client, but at what price?
I'll bet it would be substantially more than what the average home inspection fee is in most locations.
Another cost is time, the average home buyer, inspector, or even Realtor do is not willing to commit the time it would take to schedule 6 or more tradesmen at separate times (since no tradesman I know is willing to drop what he is doing to do an inspection for less than $100). Heck, in the summer time in Texas, I doubt I could get a competent HVAC guy to even call me back during the standard 10 day option period. Those guys are working 12 hour days 7 days a week just to keep people going. Same with roofers after our last wind / hail event.
The home inspector is a generalist who is hired to be an independent source of information for the client. We have no dog in the hunt, most inspectors won't or can't (prohibited by law, not ability) do repairs on anything we inspect.
Most tradesmen expect there is a problem that they will get a chance to get paid to repair when they are called, and rightfully so, we all have to make a living. The point is HI's perform a service to their client and sometimes it rubs the tradesman the wrong way, but sometimes the "tradesman" needs it. If there is a reason behind the disagreement, by all means, teach us, otherwise, be glad we refer out business.
I personally have standard verbiage in my report about recommending annual service, etc. I also recommend calling for that annual service during the slow season so that the tech has more time to do a thorough job, anything wrong with that? ALL HI's recommend competent professionals for repairs, anything wrong with that?

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Jim Luttrall
www.MrInspector.net
Allen, Texas 75002

Some of those HVAC techs from that forum have joined as new members and are already offering great input.

They should be a great source of HVAC information to add to those among us who are already HVAC techs and experienced in that field.

Welcome to THE home inspectors forum, David R, Mr Bill, and Chris.

Just one other thing though, on this forum, everyone uses their real names, so we kind of 'get to know each other'. Many forums, like the HVAC one references, use 'screen names'.

When I noticed that, I used the screen name 'inspector007', as I now do code inspections instead of home inspections.

You will find that many of the inspectors here are contractors of various trades, and, several are certified code inspectors (some in more than one discipline), we even have a Building Official or two here.

Thank you for joining us and coming over 'to the dark side'.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

Jim nice post! but in my opinion we need to just leave it the way it is, why because you guys "HI" go into the job unbiased we "A/C" Service Company's and all other trades if we went in we would be condemning everything we could to make a dollar, heck by the time we left the prospective Home Buyer would not want the home. We also need you guys because you do help us make money and most of the time when I go do a repair on a job after you guys have been there, I don't have to do any convincing just repair, replace and get a check and move on what's hard about that? nothing and I love it. Bottom line is we all each other and your right I get lots of referrals from HI folks and I really do appreciate it.

I appreciate that Mr. Bill, having been in the HVAC trade years ago, my experience tells me there is pretty sharp disagreement even within the trade. (There is a lot of cussing and discussing what the last guy did and why it was all wrong)
I guess this goes with the territory in lots of trades, opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. Hopefully, we can help each other out and we can all go away a little wiser!
Jim

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Jim Luttrall
www.MrInspector.net
Allen, Texas 75002

etc nothing. the only thing you guys should call an expert on is havc. anybody with any sense and a litte training can do the rest. elec,plumbing,roofing its all simple. most problems within other trade parameters are over obvious. hvac experience is something you cant learn ina class. leaks in plumbing are easy to see. as with roofs pull out a ladder and get up there and look at it. electric problems? pull the panel turn everything on in the whole house and check for voltage drop. hey maybe a ground fault tester too. 50 bucks. structural engineer, is the house level. crawl under the house and bring a level. 9 out of ten major problems can easily be identified. none of these other trades need as much training and experience as hvac. period. oh yea on another of yalls threads a guy said he could determine that a sys needs to be replaced. how? he doesnt even have a meter. think guys and be for real by the way i have worked 12 days straight 137 hours in two weeks i dont over charge people either.

"the only thing you guys should call an expert on is havc. anybody with any sense and a litte training can do the rest. elec,plumbing,roofing its all simple."

Chris, this blurb along with the rest of your post is a joke, correct?

Damn Crisco, that's some impressive stuff there. Sounds like you're ready to take an on-line exam right away!!

You might wanta try and attend one of them thar klasses an figger out what needs capitalizun, speelen check and whut dudn't.

By the way, that ole boy you are cussin and discussing regarding another thread where "a guy said he could determine that a sys needs to be replaced. how?"--That feller, like alot of folks here have probably seen as many a/c systems as you have. So... please, see if you can be just a little more condensending. Osmosis my boy... osmosis.

how? You ask... well, to answer with your own statement:
"anybody with any sense and a litte training can do the rest."

See, sounds pretty stupid when someone else says it...

Here is another nugget from your post that sounds like it was authored by a less than reliable source;
"the only thing you guys should call an expert on is havc"
Maybe you ought to hold off on that on-line test for a while...

Contrary to your perception, there are not just fart-smellers in this profession... there are also some smart-fellers (neither of which I profess an affilliation).

For more information on the above post... please refer to Jerry McCarthy's diagonistic review.

Rich

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Hello Gentlemen. Nice to see everyone is trying to get along.

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Stupid should hurt!

Chris Ethridge,

I hope your were joking on this. If so, please make use of the smilies on the right hand side of the typing box so that there is no misunderstanding.

It is a little bit, no, make that a lot more complex than that.

In my opinion as a HI, the electrical system(s) is a lot more complex then the AC system and there's more to plumbing and roofing than just leaks. Not to mention the other 1000 things that get looked at in the span of about 3 hours.

Yep... your affixed emoticom was well placed.

Pretty goofy huh?

By the way, welcome to the board John. Good to have you contributing. Hope your initial impressions were those of levity and not so much seriousness...

Rich

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Thanks Richard. I came here to learn/teach and compare notes. A little levity and good natured ribbing makes the above mentioned much easier I think. I look forward to getting to know everyone here.

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Stupid should hurt!

Hi Chris,

I must chime in to your post. First. I'd like to say "Bravo" to you in the defense of your industry, I think we all harbor a place where we all fit in.
Chris, please don't think I am bashing you in what you say but only offering what I beleive many others in the HI industry will agree with. So, that said, I have included parts of your post and a perspective that perhaps you may not be thinking of.

"Chris Ethridge" anybody with any sense and a litte training can do the rest. elec,plumbing,roofing its all simple. most problems within other trade parameters are over obvious.

"PM": All aspects of the home are taken into consideration for inspection, specifically, looking at a home beyond curb appeal, does it lean, are there areas out of symmetry, siding conditions etc..That said, once we determine if there are influences affecting the home, we need to determine, is it structural, is it geological, is it roofing, the builder or general contractor? Siding, is it a siding specialist, are there issues with the vapor barriers causing the siding to fail from the inside out? Chris, I only make mention of these as they are items that not each one of us has an extensive back ground in, hence, we call in a specialist in that field.

"Chris Ethridge" leaks in plumbing are easy to see.

"PM": Hmmm, is it plumb? Is it in per UPC / IRC? Does the home meet the requirements for backflow? Is the venting sufficient for the whole home, is the venting correct for the 140k BTU's in the garage, are the vents in place for supply air? Is the potable water supply installed to prevent cross connection? Hmmm? Is this just a little about nothing??? I think not.

"Chris Ethridge" electric problems? pull the panel turn everything on in the whole house and check for voltage drop. hey maybe a ground fault tester too.

"PM": What is UFER? What is lateral? What is the distance requirement for over head wiring clearance near a window area? Are panels clean, do they show overheating, are they double tapped? Is there a 30 amp disconnect at the A/C? Does the furnace have a kill switch in the immediate vicinity?
How about over current protection?

Chris, I think the opportunity to learn from what each other has to offer will greatly improve both industries, (HI & HVAC), that said, "How do we each walk away better off than when we arrived?"

Good luck, and thank the HI the next time you get a call because the split system in a home is in need of service as it was called out for its imperfections by the HI.

Pat Martinez
EBI Signature Inspections, LLC
Vancouver, Washington

Welcome John.

But before you get to know me too well, you should know, God this is hard to say. I...I...I don't have a meter. There. I've said it. I feel so much better now. I hope we can still be friends.

On a more serious note, if I get a meter will it tell me when a 13 years old rusted out piece of crap can be repaired to reliable condition or when a 13 year old piece of crap should be replaced? I've got some extra cash from ripping off people 8 times a week or so for the last 9+ years. I'm willing to spend up to $50 bucks for it.

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix

I guess I'll let it slide this time.

Unless you get one of them new fangled talkie meters....um... ....no! A 13 year old piece of crap, shucks that has at least 20 years left on it. I'll just sign you up with a service agreement, and I'll come by once a week to change out some parts for ya. You'll have a new system in no time!

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Stupid should hurt!

You correct Jim, and for the record I came here to learn and hopefully help you guys if there is something in question that could have went either way on your jobs were I could key in my opinion, and realize my opinion is just that because codes are written in black and white we all can find out what the code is just by reading.

You guys will also have to remember I am from Houston and the codes and requirements are going to differ from many cities, so I would not have a clue on codes required by other municipalities.

I joined to work with you guys and I am not here to make any one look like a little man that kind of attitude divides and I am not that kind of a person, we should all engage in using our knowledge as a whole to benefit all here. Well it's warm and humid in Houston today and I have calls to get to you folks have a great! day.

Mr Bill wrote:
"I joined to work with you guys and I am not here to make any one look like a little man that kind of attitude divides and I am not that kind of a person, we should all engage in using our knowledge as a whole to benefit all here. Well it's warm and humid in Houston today and I have calls to get to you folks have a great! day."

You sound like they type quality individual that we not only want to associate with on a professional level, but also the type we'd like to have as a neighbor.

By the way... I can't wait for the summer either . The attics around here are regularlly 135-145 degrees. At least I don't have to deal with the humidity that the folks in Houston do... Yikes!! Talk about sweat boxes!!

Be safe...

Rich

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

ok maybe you are right a person that has never swong a hammer in his/her whole life cannot see the the things that are common sense to me. thank you for enlitening me to that. i ran duct work since i was 11 during the summer time and when i quit school at 15 (like an idiot i might add) i continued working extemely hard untik my dad the owner of the company gave me 1 chance to learn service. you guys are right, i may not know all of the technical bs to make some corparare owner of us inspect believe me but you know what... i am willing to bet my paycheck that i know twice as much about how a house is built than he ever will, and i dont know half as much as most people. i guess growing up in construction has made me angry at people that cant swing a hammer and try to come in and say with all there online classes that somrthing isnt right. i havent seen a single HI that i liked personally or professionally. if there is one in SE VA that you think will change my opinion then please tell him to call ace heating and air yorktown va 8726670 and ask for the owners son chris. now can any of you people tell me how a home inspector can say a unit needs to be replaced without any hvac service experience

Chris said........"now can any of you people tell me how a home inspector can say a unit needs to be replaced without any hvac service experience".

Allow me to introduce exhibit "A" Mr. Ethridge. By the way, I've never done any HVAC work outside of home inspections in my life.

You've got yourself a lot of anger built up there Chris. Relax. I've seen plenty of shoddy HVAC work during my inspections but I don't paint all HVAC guys with the same brush because of it.

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ok you are absolutly right. i just need to calm down with this hi thing. i just wish that i woulnt cringe when someone says they had an hi out and this,this and that. as i get older i am told this will get better. i will learb to like hi's. i guees everything my dad taught me isnt Gods law. things have changed since 1960 when you started dad. my opinion has changed in the two days of being here. i do have a problem with anger, and it gets old. i just cant keep my mouth shut. i did good for a long time now its coming back. its hard to work for cusomers that i wouldnt talk to ever. i need to stop judging i need to go to sleep. 11 tickets tommorow. we are swamped 3 weeks out with changeouts, 2 months with our costom builders. tis theseason.

Chris if you don't get the anger under control you might not have to worry about carrying on the legacy of the family business.

More than likely a heart attack or high blood pressure will get you first.
Watched this go down first hand.

Get a good handle on that while you are young & you will prosper beyond your wildest dreams.

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Measured Performance more than just a buzzword

Chris,

All I can say is "WOW"!! I was speechless reading your posts.

I get calls several times a month from guys wanting to get into home inspection. They almost always start out like your post. "I grew up in construction and was framing houses while still in diapers...." "I know more about houses than anyone else in the world...even my pappy".

I too, grew up in a construction family, and while I started going on jobs while in grade school, I didn't really do much work until high school. Now I managed to get myself that contractors license, even got a piece of fancy paper that said I could draw houses for a living. I even got a job with the enemy "The Building Dept. I thought I knew a hell of a lot about houses, how they were built, how they were supposed to be built, and even had my hands in building a few.

When I decided to get into home inspections I found out quickly that I did not know one thing. How a house falls apart! (I actually use a blurb in my brochure about this).

If you think that any jack-leg can inspect a house, I suggest you give it a try. Download a Standards of Practice from ASHI or NAHI and give it a whirl. While the SOP's are just the basic requirement, most inspectors far exceed them while doing their inspections every day.

While you may know HVAC, and consider yourself an expert, I imagine there are at least a few basic home inspection things that I could trip you up on (but I'm not going there).

As far as telling someone a HVAC unit needs to be replaced....I really don't think many of us actually tell someone to do that. We more than likely tell them it's at the end of it's expected life, and/or there are significant defects that would make it better to replace than just fix it. I mean, you can put new parts in old crap and keep it running, but is that really doing anyone a favor?

How about this scenerio...25 year old heat pump, coils are corroded and full of holes, the compressor sounds like it has rocks inside of it when it started, but quits after 20 seconds. The wires to the heat strips are scorched and melted and the blower bearings have about 1" of side play in them. I thnk replacement is more in order than try to replace parts and call it a new unit.

Welcome to the forum by the way.
JF

Unlike Jack, I don't have a fancy piece of paper which states I can draw anything, much less a house ... ... but ...

I have a fancy piece of paper which says I can building *anything*, however big, however tall. So, if Jack draws it, I am allowed to build it.

Then I became a "home inspector" ...

Holy crapola! I soon learned what I, and all other builders and contractors, were DOING WRONG ALL THOSE YEARS.

Well, I say I "soon learned", the truth is more like "I soon learned that I would have to continue learning about all that I had been doing wrong and how it should have been done, 'cause the hat I wore now said 'Inspecta Fella' instead of 'Bubba da Builder'.

Then I started studying codes ... crimeny, all the information handed down from 'old world craftsman' to 'new world craftsman' was great knowledge and excellent construction knowledge, it just did not "meet code".

So here I is now, a retired "Home Inspecta Fella" turned into a "Code Inspecta Fella" with a firm grip on "we don't know nuttin' yet".

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
www.AskCodeMan.com

John S. has a realy great signature that simply states;

"Stupid should hurt"


That sillly-ass statement by the poster above, would indicate that individual is being permanently tortured... that one pegged the meter off the scale.

Richard

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

[quote=Richard Rushing;5416]John S. has a realy great signature that simply states; "Stupid should hurt"

It does. I bought a $900 patio cover once because the pitch was too low for shingles and I completely missed it. It was new construction and my brain jsut didn't let me see it. Now, no matter what I inspect, I see it as at least 10 years old

That sillly-ass statement by the poster above, would indicate that individual is being permanently tortured... that one pegged the meter off the scale.

Please be more specific so that I know which of my quotes to look up...and use again.

[quote=Jack Feldmann;5391] I too, grew up in a construction family.... and while I started going on jobs while in grade school, I didn't really do much work until high school. I thought I knew a hell of a lot about houses, how they were built, how they were supposed to be built, and even had my hands in building a few.....When I decided to get into home inspections I found out quickly that I did not know one thing. How a house falls apart! (I actually use a blurb in my brochure about this).

Builder: "Okay, Mr. smart guy. How many houses have you built?"
Response: "Not nearly as many as your subcontractors, I'm sure. But I think you're asking me the wrong question. Why don't you ask me how many houses I've been a part of rebuilding because of poor habits at the time of construction?"

[quote=Jack Feldmann;5391] As far as telling someone a HVAC unit needs to be replaced....I really don't think many of us actually tell someone to do that. We more than likely tell them it's at the end of it's expected life, and/or there are significant defects that would make it better to replace than just fix it. I mean, you can put new parts in old crap and keep it running, but is that really doing anyone a favor?

Much better said than I did. Actually, I never tell anyone to do anything. I make suggestions and tell them why I have my opinion. Telling them to do it is the job of a code official. The irony has not been missed. I can be sued for suggesting something. A code official and the authority can't be sued for telling the person to do the same thing. Is this a great country or what?

[quote=Jerry Peck;5401]...Then I became a "home inspector" ...Holy crapola! I soon learned what I, and all other builders and contractors, were DOING WRONG ALL THOSE YEARS.

Which is why I use my current signature line.

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix