Thread: Homeowner trying to decide on roofer, shingles, felt, ice guard, ventilation, options

Thanks for allowing me to read posts here. Bought this house in NE Ohio Oct 2012, worn out roof is on top of two other roofs. I'm getting CertainTeed Landmark Pro Max Def shingles, trying to decide between DiamondDeck underlayment with Winterguard High Tack/High Temp or skip DiamondDeck and just put HT/HT over everything. Roofer would install new bathroom fan/vent, ridge vent, too, also The EdgeVent, because my little house, built '57, has no soffits, only dormer vents. Attic sq ft is approx 920, 5-6/12 pitch.

Price: $11,750.00.

With HT/HT on 3 ft only, DiamondDeck over the rest, which the roofer says would actually be fine for me, for $10,930.00, but I think he might come down a little on that one.

Another roofer wants to install Atlas Pinnacle, unspecified ice guard 6' wide, five gravity vents to add to the current one.

Price: $4,675.00. That roofer says his company installs 1500 roofs per year, all of which makes me question how well trained his army can possibly be.

Because I love my house, and especially its setting, I'm inclined to bite the bullet and pay the big bucks.

I'm here just to see what I can see. This is a choice I must make for myself, but I'd very much welcome anyone's insight. Both roofers offer drip edge and chimney flashing...

I've learned what ASTM 1970 means, which is more knowledge than I ever wanted

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Some guys just charge a lot more than others. A client of mine just got two quotes for replacing a service panel. The higher quote was double the lower and the lower bid was from an excellent electrician. Guys with big crews often will give more competitive bids just to keep their guys busy and paid. The company that roofed my house was in that situation.

It's ok to ask for references, but a company won't give you a reference from an unhappy customer, so I always take references with a grain of salt. Presumably, you are doing this with permits and inspection, so you have that protection. You sound like you know quite a bit about roofing so you can see what is going on too. (It appeared to me that the company owner that roofed my house, told his crew that I was a home inspector, because they seemed to be taking more care than I usually see with roofers)

Why only two bids? I think I got six for my house.

And finally, what is your gut feeling? Who do you have the best feeling about?

Sounds like you are comparing a Yugo to a Lexus..... You need to try and find another roofer who will spec the same as the first. How many squares of shingles are being quoted?

920 sq ft attic, 6/12 pitch, maybe 12 square for the roof with overhang. Any valleys? Valleys and ridges add to the cost a bit.

Big thanks to Lon, Scott, and John. With 3 princes, who will rule the kingdom next?

4 ridges and 2 valleys. I didn't count the garage or front porch; total floor space is 1,152, not 920. Garage has no attic, so no ridge or soffit vents needed. I love my house, but it is T-I-N-Y !!

4 valleys, 3 ridges. Garage is attached but roof is at level different from house, so no valley formed there.

The number of squares is not noted.

Permits and inspections are included in both proposals.

I only told you about the 2 plausible proposals. I had one that offered IKO but attached no contract for my review at all, one that wanted remove the gravity vent and cover the dormer vent but did not mention soffit venting, and one from a storm chaser. Five should be enough, but in this case, it is not. I just got off the phone with Certainteed and more names of Select ShingleMasters. One is coming tomorrow at 4pm and another will call me back to schedule.

My gut says to go with the expensive one because not only are all his certifications and insurance statements at his web site up to date, but he has been kind of tireless in answering my endless emails. At this point, if I didn't see at least the one who has already made an appointment for tomorrow, I'd feel I'd let myself down.

You guys didn't say $11,750.00 is way out of line, and that was a primary question I had for you. But please, any additional insight is hugely appreciated.

What would we (I) do without Google? Waste a lot of money, that's what.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

920 sq ft attic, 6/12 pitch, maybe 12 square for the roof with overhang. Any valleys? Valleys and ridges add to the cost a bit.

I posted a group answer to my 3 replies, maybe nobody saw it, don't want to clog board... In any case, I neglected to mention re John's reply that there are no overhangs. That's why the high-priced roofer wants to install the product called TheEdge, which would create soffit vents where there are no soffits.

Thanks,
Bernard

That price would be quite high in this area, but I know prices vary greatly from region to region.

Higher price does not equal better quality. The tradesman who runs his own business can produce far superior work to the company that has a showroom, salesmen, secretaries, etc...

but this does not mean that the cheapest price is the best deal, you have to do your due diligence, which it seems you are. 

I would think $11 Thousand US Dollars for a 1200 sft house is to put it mildly Robbery!

$4 gs would be about right for 25 year 3 tab including the tear off.

Originally Posted by Chris McIntyre

That price would be quite high in this area, but I know prices vary greatly from region to region.

Higher price does not equal better quality. The tradesman who runs his own business can produce far superior work to the company that has a showroom, salesmen, secretaries, etc...

but this does not mean that the cheapest price is the best deal, you have to do your due diligence, which it seems you are. 

Thanks for your response, Chris --

I see I neglected to mention a big-ticket element of the $11,750.00 proposal: installation of ShingleVent II baffled ridge vent to form a system with TheEdgeVent soffit vents (There are no overhangs anywhere.)

Proposal also includes a "Premium Fascia Protection System," which for me would be Certainteed Winterguard in the High Tack/High Temp film version (which as I mentioned before would go over the whole roof -- felt omitted). For the fascia, 2-3" of HT/HT would be rolled over gutter board and then covered with 3x3 metal for UV protection. Also he would reflash chimney reglet style and other flashing as needed, replace plumbing collars.

That's about it, except for normal (I hope) stuff like cleaning up.

You can see that I am trying to justify paying a high price, mainly because this guy is the only one of five candidates who is remotely plausible. Except I do have an appointmt tomorrow with someone new. Another company I called today never did call back to schedule. All these guys are Select ShingleMasters referred to me by Certainteed.

Thanks again for your comments.

Bernard

Originally Posted by Bernard Spunberg

Thanks for your response, Chris --

I see I neglected to mention a big-ticket element of the $11,750.00 proposal: installation of ShingleVent II baffled ridge vent to form a system with TheEdgeVent soffit vents (There are no overhangs anywhere.)

Proposal also includes a "Premium Fascia Protection System," which for me would be Certainteed Winterguard in the High Tack/High Temp film version (which as I mentioned before would go over the whole roof -- felt omitted). For the fascia, 2-3" of HT/HT would be rolled over gutter board and then covered with 3x3 metal for UV protection. Also he would reflash chimney reglet style and other flashing as needed, replace plumbing collars.

That's about it, except for normal (I hope) stuff like cleaning up.

You can see that I am trying to justify paying a high price, mainly because this guy is the only one of five candidates who is remotely plausible. Except I do have an appointmt tomorrow with someone new. Another company I called today never did call back to schedule. All these guys are Select ShingleMasters referred to me by Certainteed.

Thanks again for your comments.

Bernard

Bernard, Bernard, Bernard,

Flashing is part of a re-roofing job.
Ridge & Soffit Vents would add about $ 750 tops to a 1200 SF home.

Did you get the Undercoating, Diamond Glass Protection and Stain Guard Package with your last New Car purchase ?

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

I would think $11 Thousand US Dollars for a 1200 sft house is to put it mildly Robbery!

$4 gs would be about right for 25 year 3 tab including the tear off.

,
Thanks very much, Billy, for your response.

I would getting a lot more than 3-tab shingles, but I don't want to throw my money away, either. Just out of curiosity, I think I will drive to their office tomorrow, just to see...

I'm 60, lived in a 1-room apartment in San Francisco for the last 22 years. I saved and invested. Didn't have a specific plan for my money, just knew I needed it. Then I discovered real estate in Ohio. I bought this house in October 2012. It was $53K, structurally sound but needed new windows and furnace. Because of the quarter-acre, bounded by a stream and forest, all of which I plan on making even more beautiful than it already is, it would be maybe $1.5 million in San Francisco.

I love my house and I intend to live in it for the rest of my life. Because of the move I made, for the first time in my life, I want my life to last for a long, long time.

I'm trying to do the right thing but I don't want to be stupid about it.

Thanks to all.

Bernard

Originally Posted by Bernard Spunberg

,
Thanks very much, Billy, for your response.

I would getting a lot more than 3-tab shingles, but I don't want to throw my money away, either. Just out of curiosity, I think I will drive to their office tomorrow, just to see...

I'm 60, lived in a 1-room apartment in San Francisco for the last 22 years. I saved and invested. Didn't have a specific plan for my money, just knew I needed it. Then I discovered real estate in Ohio. I bought this house in October 2012. It was $53K, structurally sound but needed new windows and furnace. Because of the quarter-acre, bounded by a stream and forest, all of which I plan on making even more beautiful than it already is, it would be maybe $1.5 million in San Francisco.

I love my house and I intend to live in it for the rest of my life. Because of the move I made, for the first time in my life, I want my life to last for a long, long time.

I'm trying to do the right thing but I don't want to be stupid about it.

Thanks to all.

Bernard

Cost for 40 feet of ridge vent is less than 100 bucks.Wimsatt Building Materials - AIRVENT SHINGLEVENT II 4' BLACK
Soffit vent material is $2 to $3 bucks a lineal foot.
Best,
Billy

Originally Posted by Bernard Spunberg

4 ridges and 2 valleys. I didn't count the garage or front porch; total floor space is 1,152, not 920. Garage has no attic, so no ridge or soffit vents needed. I love my house, but it is T-I-N-Y !!

4 valleys, 3 ridges. Garage is attached but roof is at level different from house, so no valley formed there.

The number of squares is not noted.

Permits and inspections are included in both proposals.
.
.

You guys didn't say $11,750.00 is way out of line, and that was a primary question I had for you.

First, you need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, i.e., number of squares to number of squares, then roofing material to roofing material.

$11,750.00 for an 1,152 square foot house is, well, as a customer years ago told me when I was contracting (she was talking about a competitor's estimate for the same work I was estimating for, they were quite a bit higher than I was) 'I don't mind paying a good sum for what I am getting, everyone needs to put their kids through college and plan their retirement ... just don't expect ME to put your kids through college AND provide for your retirement on this one project.'

She was 72 years old and had decided to take up flying the year before, she had her pilots license and loved to go out flying with her friends or by herself, just shows an old dog is never to old to learn new tricks (her words) ...

Don't put the roofers kids through college yourself and keep some for your retirement, you may want to learn a new trick then.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

Cost for 40 feet of ridge vent is less than 100 bucks.Wimsatt Building Materials - AIRVENT SHINGLEVENT II 4' BLACK
Soffit vent material is $2 to $3 bucks a lineal foot.
Best,
Billy

Billy --

Wow.

Maybe I should go with the very first guy who came to me.
Remove existing roofs
Replace plywood as needed (not included but would be $4.95 per 1"x8"x1')
Install drip edge to gutter edges and rake boards
Install Ice Guard 6' up roof from edge of gutter -- Atlas Pinnacle, I guess
Install Ice Guard in valleys 3' wide
Reflash chimneys with black or brown pre-baked aluminum tucked inside mortar joints and seal flashings
Install new soil stack flashings and seal rubber gaskets
Install synthetic underlayment (unspecified brand-- I guess I fell just a little in love with Certainteed Winterguard High Temp/High Tack)
Install 7" undercourse with self-sealing strip on rakes and eaves
Install 5 12"x12" gravity vents -- No ridge or edge vents. I asked about this and didn't really understand the answer. Maybe I should insist on them. Maybe his crew doesn't know how to install them -- correctly.

I forgot to say Atlas Pinnacle Pristine shingles.

Salesman says his company installs 1500 roofs per year. Plausible? Can all those workers be adequately trained?

Are you sitting down?

$4,675.00.

Can it be true? Can it be good? I drove out to some houses he said he roofed -- in some VERY fancy neighborhoods. Nice sightseeing expedition. Couldn't really tell anything.

Thank you again -- for your candor, especially.

Bernard

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

First, you need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, i.e., number of squares to number of squares, then roofing material to roofing material.

$11,750.00 for an 1,152 square foot house is, well, as a customer years ago told me when I was contracting (she was talking about a competitor's estimate for the same work I was estimating for, they were quite a bit higher than I was) 'I don't mind paying a good sum for what I am getting, everyone needs to put their kids through college and plan their retirement ... just don't expect ME to put your kids through college AND provide for your retirement on this one project.'

She was 72 years old and had decided to take up flying the year before, she had her pilots license and loved to go out flying with her friends or by herself, just shows an old dog is never to old to learn new tricks (her words) ...

Don't put the roofers kids through college yourself and keep some for your retirement, you may want to learn a new trick then.

Thanks very much, Jerry, for your response.

The roofer's kids will need psychotherapy. Who is going to pay for that?

So difficult for a layman to know the difference between significant upgrades in quality and worthless excess. But somebody else just gave me a hint. Billy mentioned Wimsatt Building Materials. I could call and get the real prices for this stuff...

Thanks, again.

Bernard

Bernard, et.al.,
So man people want to make a guessing game out of getting a quote for work. You want to make a decision based on specific criteria. That is the apples to apples comparison. So many ask a contractor to provide a quote and then try to make a comparison of the bids. The problem is that it is like herding cats, the go in every direction. So what can you do to make sense out of the mess?

1) Find out what you need.
2) Have the contractor tell you what they think you need and see how it lines up with your interpretation for work needed. A good contractor will inform and educate you about the job.
3) If you have a list of specifications for the work, give it to the contractor so his quote will reflect what you want done. He can separate out any other materials and labor above your specifications and show it as an additional cost for that work.
4) If you have a quote (detailed specifications of labor and material) that you are considering then make a copy of those labor and material specifications and send it to the contractors that have offered you quotes and ask for their revised quote based on the new specifications.
5) Now you are able to look at the work realistically. Apples to apples.
6) Price is secondary to quality. Price does not determine quality. Some sell a job fostering the belief that the outlandish price reflects their quality, otherwise why would it be so high. Some sell on the basis of cheapest price in town. Which may provide an excellent job based on the bulk of the workers are illegal aliens being paid next to nothing. Which becomes a moral issue on their exploitation and your participation.

You may come across a contractor that says that you need something other than what you are specifying for it to be a quality job. The contractor should be able to explain why it is necessary, not just sell you on additional services. If it makes sense you can then go back and ask the other contractors that you are interested in for an adjusted quote based on the additional items.

Opinion on your quoted prices;
- The price of $11.7k vs $4.5K is to much of a swing. $11K seems high for house size.
- Ice and Water Shield on first 3ft is an industry standard now. 6ft is not bad in that it provides additional insurance against potential. I like 6ft, sort of belt and suspenders concept.
- Ice and Water Shield in valleys is an industry standard. I like it covered with 24" of alum and the valley woven over that.
- Ventilation is extremely important. You may need more than original construction method, get now rather than try later. Make sure that if alterations are performed it is a total functional system, not just a look good and fuzzy feeling addition.
-Flashing, drip edge and so one is mandatory and industry standard.


Some caveats;
- You may be dealing with a salesman and not the actual contractor.
- Roofer without a tan, think twice. Look at their hands. Clean, white with a manicure think twice.
- Make absolutely sure that every aspect of the work is written into the contract. If they say it make them write it into contract. If they balk, then bid them a good day and move on, end of discussion.
- Absolutely no more than 1/3 down, 10% with contract and maybe up to 23% the day job starts. Balance 30 days after completion and subject to being inspected by someone of your choice.
- Look very closely at any financing agreement.
- Have some one that knows roofing look (with a camera) at work as it is progressing. Start of shingling (exposed deck, laying of Ice and Water Shield) and 1/2 way into job.
- Caution about pricing on deck rot replacement. A little can add up to a big price.
- Finial payment only after corrections have been done to your satisfaction.
- If the contractor needs money to buy materials they may not be the contractor for you. Many contractors like many businesses today are, subject to major event, on the edge of a cliff. You don't want to go over the edge with them. Friday they were solvent and Monday its bankruptcy.
- Make sure they have insurance, liability and worker comp.
- If you have Home Owners Insurance, check with our company to see if you are covered against workers claims from a job accident on your property.
- If you feel uneasy think about asking for a "performance bond".

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Bernard, et.al.,
So man people want to make a guessing game out of getting a quote for work. You want to make a decision based on specific criteria. That is the apples to apples comparison. So many ask a contractor to provide a quote and then try to make a comparison of the bids. The problem is that it is like herding cats, the go in every direction. So what can you do to make sense out of the mess?

1) Find out what you need.
2) Have the contractor tell you what they think you need and see how it lines up with your interpretation for work needed. A good contractor will inform and educate you about the job.
3) If you have a list of specifications for the work, give it to the contractor so his quote will reflect what you want done. He can separate out any other materials and labor above your specifications and show it as an additional cost for that work.
4) If you have a quote (detailed specifications of labor and material) that you are considering then make a copy of those labor and material specifications and send it to the contractors that have offered you quotes and ask for their revised quote based on the new specifications.
5) Now you are able to look at the work realistically. Apples to apples.
6) Price is secondary to quality. Price does not determine quality. Some sell a job fostering the belief that the outlandish price reflects their quality, otherwise why would it be so high. Some sell on the basis of cheapest price in town. Which may provide an excellent job based on the bulk of the workers are illegal aliens being paid next to nothing. Which becomes a moral issue on their exploitation and your participation.

You may come across a contractor that says that you need something other than what you are specifying for it to be a quality job. The contractor should be able to explain why it is necessary, not just sell you on additional services. If it makes sense you can then go back and ask the other contractors that you are interested in for an adjusted quote based on the additional items.

Opinion on your quoted prices;
- The price of $11.7k vs $4.5K is to much of a swing. $11K seems high for house size.
- Ice and Water Shield on first 3ft is an industry standard now. 6ft is not bad in that it provides additional insurance against potential. I like 6ft, sort of belt and suspenders concept.
- Ice and Water Shield in valleys is an industry standard. I like it covered with 24" of alum and the valley woven over that.
- Ventilation is extremely important. You may need more than original construction method, get now rather than try later. Make sure that if alterations are performed it is a total functional system, not just a look good and fuzzy feeling addition.
-Flashing, drip edge and so one is mandatory and industry standard.


Some caveats;
- You may be dealing with a salesman and not the actual contractor.
- Roofer without a tan, think twice. Look at their hands. Clean, white with a manicure think twice.
- Make absolutely sure that every aspect of the work is written into the contract. If they say it make them write it into contract. If they balk, then bid them a good day and move on, end of discussion.
- Absolutely no more than 1/3 down, 10% with contract and maybe up to 23% the day job starts. Balance 30 days after completion and subject to being inspected by someone of your choice.
- Look very closely at any financing agreement.
- Have some one that knows roofing look (with a camera) at work as it is progressing. Start of shingling (exposed deck, laying of Ice and Water Shield) and 1/2 way into job.
- Caution about pricing on deck rot replacement. A little can add up to a big price.
- Finial payment only after corrections have been done to your satisfaction.
- If the contractor needs money to buy materials they may not be the contractor for you. Many contractors like many businesses today are, subject to major event, on the edge of a cliff. You don't want to go over the edge with them. Friday they were solvent and Monday its bankruptcy.
- Make sure they have insurance, liability and worker comp.
- If you have Home Owners Insurance, check with our company to see if you are covered against workers claims from a job accident on your property.
- If you feel uneasy think about asking for a "performance bond".

Hello, Garry --

A lot of people will benefit from your response. Thank you.

I met with another roofer today. I'll meet with another tomorrow -- my last, no matter what. I think that will make 7. The high-priced guy and the ones from today and tomorrow are all Select ShingleMasters I was referred to by Certainteed.

Your advice is good, so following it comes naturally. The only two really credible estimates -- out of the 7! -- I have are itemized, with optional upgrades listed separately. It's easy to see who is charging how much for what.

The only thing you didn't mention is that I do have some power. I see nothing wrong in requesting a discount, especially on significant upgrades.

The guy today is asking $8K for the same stuff the other guy was asking $10,930.00 -- that's subtracting Certainteed Ice Guard High Tack/High Temp over the whole roof, which I've finally come to realize is a bad idea.

So I'm going in the right direction.

Thanks again --

Bernard

Originally Posted by Bernard Spunberg

The guy today is asking $8K for the same stuff the other guy was asking $10,930.00

So I'm going in the right direction.

Bernard

Bernard,

Had 60 Squares 25 yr , 18 inch lap on the under lament , Ridge vents , added apr 12 soffit vents with tear off, metal chimney flashing, new vent boots, cleanup for 7k.

Include the price of dumping three layers of old shingle plus rental for a bin for most part of a week. With ridges, valleys and the size, $8 G is in the park, IMO.

At 62 years old, it would not make sense for me to spend the money for a 40 - 50 year roofing system I won't be around to enjoy. In this region, for $4,000 you could get a "Cadillac" roofing system and for $2,250 you could get a standard 30 year roofing system. I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Darrel Hood

At 62 years old, it would not make sense for me to spend the money for a 40 - 50 year roofing system I won't be around to enjoy. In this region, for $4,000 you could get a "Cadillac" roofing system and for $2,250 you could get a standard 30 year roofing system. I hope this helps.

What if you have heirs to your estate and would like to increase its potential value? Your additional 50% paid now will have an increased return on investment in 10 to 20 years when the house is sold as part of the estate. Lets say by example you upgrade from a $5K job to a $8K job and in 15 yrs the the $5K job is now $15K. So for $3K you have a $7K net pre-tax return. Assuming that the job has 20yr life left. Depending on where and how you invest money the % will vary, but you know that Labor and Materials are guaranteed to go up at a greater rate than a conservative investment. Just a thought....for some to play with.

Now in 10 yrs with another 10+ million Illegal Aliens accepting below min wage jobs, the job labor cost may actually be less than it would be today. So go figure that scenario....

just some food for thought...

Two years ago at my house and barn. 55 squares of CertainTeed Impact Resistant dimensional shingles for $18,000 with strip off of old layer.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

What if you have heirs to your estate and would like to increase its potential value? Your additional 50% paid now will have an increased return on investment in 10 to 20 years when the house is sold as part of the estate. Lets say by example you upgrade from a $5K job to a $8K job and in 15 yrs the the $5K job is now $15K. So for $3K you have a $7K net pre-tax return. Assuming that the job has 20yr life left. Depending on where and how you invest money the % will vary, but you know that Labor and Materials are guaranteed to go up at a greater rate than a conservative investment. Just a thought....for some to play with.

.

A 10 to 20 year old roof adds value to a house ?
* I'll make a note of that as a Roof Ages it increases the Property Value.
** a house has to have a Roof, Walls, Doors, Windows, Bath,Heat or it's not a house.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

A 10 to 20 year old roof adds value to a house ?
* I'll make a note of that as a Roof Ages it increases the Property Value.
** a house has to have a Roof, Walls, Doors, Windows, Bath,Heat or it's not a house.

A roof always adds value, just as not having a roof detracts form value

Concept was that when the house comes up for sale at 15 yrs into a 40yr shingle the cost of replacing the roof does not reduce its market value. If you value the house and the roof will need to be replaced in the next 5 yrs it will reflect in the prices offered.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

A roof always adds value, just as not having a roof detracts form value

As does carpeting but they are both a diminishing return on investment.

[QUOTE=Garry Sorrells;228960]What if you have heirs to your estate and would like to increase its potential value?

That reflects the need for a personal choice of strategy. Some folks aim all their efforts toward a large estate. Some folks think life and their last dollar should disappear at the same time.

[QUOTE=Darrel Hood;228997]

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

What if you have heirs to your estate and would like to increase its potential value?

That reflects the need for a personal choice of strategy. Some folks aim all their efforts toward a large estate. Some folks think life and their last dollar should disappear at the same time.

One way to be remembered is to go out owing everybody big. Bernie Madoff will be remembered for at least two generations.

Billy S.,
Carpet if in good condition and the buyers like it adds value. Carpet in good condition but the buyers hate it (and will have to replace it) is a devaluation to the property. The roof is a functional item to the property. If in good condition with many years (15+) a factor of the house's market value. Since it is not a short term projected expense for the buyer.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Billy S.,
The roof is a functional item to the property. If in good condition with many years (15+) a factor of the house's market value. Since it is not a short term projected expense for the buyer.

Maybe they Like Old Roofs in Maryland. ( Not here.)

The only roofing systems I could image that might out live a declining return on Investment is not bought at the Big Orange Box.