Hi everyone. I have been writing up any panels that have specific manufacturer labels stating "Use only ....... brand breakers type ....... " when I observe that different brands are installed. I have been getting beat up by the electricians in my county that this is not correct, and there are breakers that interchange in many different panels. County inspectors don't appear to have to deal with this since most all new construction have brand new panels with the same breakers. Is there any specific (NEC) information that I can print to back up that this may be voiding liability of the manufacturer in the event of any problem with their panel? Any info is greatly appreciated. I am new to the site and very impressed with the knowledge that all the inspectors pass on to those of us that are still absorbing alot in this industry. Thank you

Are inspection referrals from past clients important to you? If so, click here to get even more referrals!

Technically speaking, If the manufacturer says only use our breakers then you are suppose to go by the manufacturers directions. Do you have to write them up if there is a breaker in the panel that has been tested for use in that panel but is not of the same manufacturer. I would not.

You must use what is rated for that panel. If what is in there is UL listed then I personally do not see a problem with it.

__________________
Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

Jody,

PDF is from Square D's builders grade panel.

Let Them Show You in Writing that the Installed Breakers are Correct.

*see Warning at the bottom of page 2.

Attached Images

40271-419-04.pdf (260.8 KB, 36 views)

__________________
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Thanks Ted and Billy. I have been taking that stand, Billy. Let the electrician put it on his letterhead that it's an acceptable situation. I have been Googling for some info and I just read on a forum chat room from 1999 a statement from an engineer at Square D on this subject. He stated that you should only use Square D breakers in their panel( as printed) and that Square D will take the position that the liability for the panel has been voided. I still would like to know if there is anything in the NEC or some other authority about this. I just don't understand why in the hell it is so hard for electricians or do-it-yourselfers to follow recommendations and warnings by manufacturers? Thanks again for your replies.

I hope Jim doesn't mind me posting this here:
I wrote this in 2005:

I’d advise treading carefully when condemning off-brand breakers. Sometimes, it’s not a violation.

If a breaker manufacturer pays for it, Underwriters Laboratories will test and “classify” one manufacturer’s breakers for use in another manufacturer’s panel. These breakers are known – not surprisingly – as “classified breakers.” From both a safety and a code perspective, these breakers are perfectly acceptable to use in the panels for which they’re listed. When you buy them, the breakers come with a long list of panels that are acceptable to put them in.

Check out the UL guide for these breakers at http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=DIXF.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Ci rcuit Breakers, Molded-case, Classified for Use in Specified Equipment&objid=1074081964&cfgid=1073741824&versio n=versionless&parent_id=1073

Cutler Hammer, for instance, makes some particular classified breakers that UL says are acceptable to put in GE, Siemens, Murray, Thomas & Betts, Square D (both Homeline and QO) and Crouse Hinds panels. (Note to Chris: Not all Cutler Hammer breakers are classified as compatible with Square D, only some of them.) Check them out at http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/SA00304001E.PDF

As for warranties, every panel manufacturer, it seems, has similar language warning of the dire consequences that will result if another manufacturer’s breaker is used in their panel. The most curious of these is Cutler Hammer. (We make breakers that are classified for use in practically every other panel out there, but if you use someone else’s breaker in our panel, our warranty is void!) Talk about cheeky. The thing about all of this warranty voiding is that it may not be legal. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Acthttp://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm#Magnuson-Moss specifically prohibits a manufacturer from requiring the use of their own replacement parts when safe and effective alternatives are available from other manufacturers. I suppose that, to know for sure, this will someday have to be tested in court. I’m not holding my breath.

- Jim Katen, Oregon

This is two replies on the National Electric Code Internet Connection forum that I referred to earlier.

From: Stauffer
Dear Mike: UL tests and rates circuit breakers by one manufacture (such as Murray) for use in other manufacturers' panelboards (such as Square D). I believe this is called "classification."
The bigger, more reputable manufacturers hate this practice and always have, but UL does it nevertheless. Therefore, I believe the panelboard manufacturer's warning label is merely a scare tactic, and that anyone can install a properly classified breaker in another brand of panel.
Of course, there probably are breakers that are mechanically compatible with other brands of panel but that have not been classified for use in them. (Classification, like listing, costs money.) This is a grayer area for which I have no good, short answer. I guess a careful, liability-minded electrician or contractor would check his UL listing directories before installing a Brand "A" breaker in a Brand "B" panel.
BROOKE STAUFFER, Director, NECA Codes and Standards
From: pauleyj@squared.com
Mike: Seems you had a wide variety of comments. Most seemed to indicate that the practice of installing something that the panelboard manufacturers label clearly prohibits would be putting yourself way out on the limb.
Square D's position is simple. Our panelboards are clearly marked with what circuit breakers are permitted to be installed. Installation of anything contrary to that marking will void our warranty and we will certainly make that point loud and clear should something go wrong with the installation. This is not only based on our listing, but also takes into account the 40+ years of design and application expertise our engineers put into the circuit breaker/panelboard combination.
I have seen many comments that indicate that this is only a "scare tactic,” etc. However, keep in mind that the product standards have, for many, many years, required that the panelboard be marked with the circuit breakers that are permitted to be installed, and for good reason. When manufacturer “A” says that their breaker can be installed in manufacturer “B” catalog XX-XXXX panelboard, I wonder which version of that panel they were talking about. The version made in 1998, 1993, 1989, 1985, 1980, etc? Keep in mind that the catalog number might be the same, but the design changed many times. This is where the panelboard manufacturer spends a great deal of time, making sure that things are compatible. Manufacturer “A” would have no idea what the "history" of that product was through all those years.
The vast majority of electrical inspectors (and electrical contractors) will tell you that they go by what is marked on the panel. Do anything else, has too many variables.
Jim Pauley, P.E.
Square D Company

I've also found some googled replies on various forums from over the years where a person is stating their electrician pointed out wrong breakers in a panel. The homeowner then states that they had the home inspected two years ago when they bought it and that was not called out by the inspector. The electrician then replied that most home inspectors don't know what to look for and he should have had the house inspected by licensed trades contractors who are more knowledgeable!

PDF #1 Has NEC code reference numbers if needed.

PDF # 2 Shows the information on the Breaker (printed label on the side ) to consider if it is a UL " Classified Breaker"

Only way I can see to verify if the in question breaker is UL Rated ( way beyond my scope as a HI ) would be to pull the breaker to confirm it's on
" The List. "
.

Attached Images

	ul_question.pdf (187.8 KB, 16 views)
	01_28.pdf (49.2 KB, 15 views)

__________________
It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Once again, thanks for all the info. Knowledge is king!!!!

Brandon, the first 2 links didn't work for me. Did anyone else have this problem?

It's always a violation ... and it may not be.

That is the best answer.

The panelboard manufacturers test *their* breakers in *their* panelboards when the panelboards are tested, listed and labeled *and that labeling* rules for that panelboard.

UL does, however, "Classify" breakers made by one manufacturer for use in other manufacturers panelboards, and those breakers go through rigorous testing.

The catch is:

a) To follow the listing and labeling *of the listed and labeled panelboard*, only the breakers specified for use in that panelboard on that panelboards labeling are allowed to be used in that panelboard. LU says so. It really is that plain and simple.

b) To follow the listing and labeling *of the classified breakers*, they can be installed in any panelboard included in their compatibility list. UL says so. It really is that plain and simple.

c) The manufacturer of the panelboard which has *other than their own* breakers in it will deny any warranty coverage on that panelboard should anything happen. That means that the deep pockets will be gone should anything happen. Just read what Jim Pauley with Square D stated: "Square D's position is simple. Our panelboards are clearly marked with what circuit breakers are permitted to be installed. Installation of anything contrary to that marking will void our warranty and we will certainly make that point loud and clear should something go wrong with the installation." It really is that simple.

Huh? "It really is that simple."? Yep.

If you want to replace your deep pockets for those of the manufacturer of the panel, go ahead and 'not write them up'.I'm sure that Siemens (as one example) will gladly step in and back you should a problem occur when their breakers are installed in a Square D panelboard and Square D backs out of the picture. Just call them and ask them. And, by the way, if they do say they will back you - get it in writing.

Then ask your attorney if you can rely on that to protect you. I suspect your attorney's response will be something like 'Possibly, but you will likely have to sue them to get them to back up their letter.'

Just how deep are your pockets? Do you want to take the chance and find out?

Jim Katen, Oregon says: "it’s not a violation" (using a classified breaker within their compatibility list even though the breaker is being used in a panel which does not list that breaker in its listing and labeling)

Jerry Peck, Florida says: "it's a violation of the panelboard listing" (using breakers not included in the listing) and "it's not a violation of the breaker classification" (using classified breakers within their compatibility list)

Jerry Peck, Florida also says: "if you put one 'it is a violation' and one 'it is not a violation' together, you still have one 'it is a violation' "

If the electrician want to overrule you, tell them to get it in writing from the AHJ.

If the AHJ states it is okay in writing, don't change your report, but keep that letter in your file and put it with your report, for both you and your client - your client may need it when they go to sell. The AHJ can overrule you, let them, but remember: they can't be sued, you can. "It is still a violation."

In my opinion, if UL wants to allow breakers in a panel other than those tested, listed and labeled for the panel when the panel was tested, listed and labeled, ... let UL change the wording on the original panel listing and labeling and state: "or any breaker UL classifies in the future for use in this panel". In which case, it would no longer be a violation.

But, I have to wonder just how many manufacturers of panelboards would test and list and label to that revised wording, knowing that they would have no control over the breakers to be used in their panel.

Square D? I seriously doubt it.

Siemens? I seriously doubt they would want Square D to make breakers for their panels and for those Square D breakers to be installed in their panels. I suspect they would take the same stance that Square D is taking.

Added with edit: Think of it this way - If you take two pure breed dogs and mate them, will you get a pure breed dog? Of course not, you will get a mutt. Neither parent will take responsibility for the damages done by the mutt.

Same thing when combining a different brand breaker in a panel not listed and labeled for that breaker. Neither manufacturer will take responsibility for damages.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Thanks to everyone for your advice. Jerry, my AHJ doesn't seem to have an opinion. The local inspectors refer me to licensed electricians in the county. They only seem to see new construction panels. Funny how all the breakers in the new construction panels are the same brand as the panel! Have a great weekend.

Sorry Ken,

The links are from 2005........ they must not exist any longer. I didn't check them prior to posting.