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Thread: TPR extension

  1. #1
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default TPR extension

    I was hoping someone could help me with a TPR extension question. Unfortunately I dont have a pic of it because the pipe was probably 10 feet long or more and it had several elbows in it.

    The situation was, the extension came out of the tank and then down via a few 90 elbows, then ran along a wall to the other side of the room. It then had a couple more elbows before eventually discahrging into a sump pump crock. I was unable to see the end of the pipe as the lid was bolted to the concrete floor.

    I was under the impression that you had to see the end of the extension and that it should not have any elbows in it. And is it even allowed to empty into a sump pump crock?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Brian,

    The requirements for the T&P relief valve discharge line have changed during the past couple of code cycles.

    The 'old way' - it was this way for many years - was that the T&P discharge line had to:
    - drain dry (be slope downhill)
    - have not more than 4 elbows in it
    - not be longer than 30 feet
    - have the end 6" above grade
    - discharge to the outdoors or to a floor drain (wording to that affect)

    The 'new way' is that the T&P discharge line must end in the same room or space as the water heater is in, and it gets more complicated from there.

    I prefer the 'old way', but the code addresses them through the 'new way'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    I like the new way. had one the other day that the plumber stuck the pipe in the floor that went into an inaccessible sub-area.

    The new way has the pipe in view. so if something is wrong you know before its to late.

    Best

    Ron

    Last edited by Ron Bibler; 11-26-2008 at 12:37 AM.

  4. #4
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Hmmm is all I have to say to that as well. And what might have been wrong with the old way for it to be changed. Hmmmmm.


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    And what might have been wrong with the old way for it to be changed.

    Old way: Water drains to exterior, draining water causes no problems, the home owner knows about it because the draining water is hot water and they now have less hot water, so, the call the plumber to find out why they have less hot water.

    New way: Water drains to interior, flooding house and causing damage. If homeowner does see water draining from the line they ... no, they do not call the plumber, we all see what they do, they cap that sucker off so it does not leak.

    The theory for changing it was that the homeowner would see the water and call the plumber, yeah, right, the homeowner see the water and they know what to do, they stop the leak.

    I like the old way.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    OK so is the answer to my questions "is it ok to drain to a sump pump crock? and is it ok to not be able to see the end because it was in a sealed crock?" Im thinking no on both, but not sure what to advise the client on this one.

    Keep in mind that this will be my first actual solo paid inspection so I wanna make sure I get this one right.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Congradulation on your first fee paid Inspection, with this ecomony dont give up your day job, as sales are way down. I had to chase Hurricanes with fema to make a little additional money because of slow home sales.good luck


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomas View Post
    OK so is the answer to my questions "is it ok to drain to a sump pump crock? and is it ok to not be able to see the end because it was in a sealed crock?" Im thinking no on both, but not sure what to advise the client on this one.
    Correct. It does not met either the old way or the new way, and, to my knowledge, it was never allowed that way. At the very least it would have required an air gap above the sump, minimum 6" and maximum 6" (yeah, * 6 inches*).

    Keep in mind that this will be my first actual solo paid inspection so I wanna make sure I get this one right.
    Congratulations.

    And, yes, you will be correct that *it should not have been done that way*.

    Which is different from *you will not get any flak over stating that*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    OK thanks jerry, I appreciate it. I didnt think it was correct so I will just advise him as such.

    Fortunately, for me, I am able to ride out the slow times for a bit longer than someone that depends on more inspections. I am a stay at home dad so I was not in the work force for 2 years prior to HI. So now, any income is good income for me. At some point, I will want to make this a full time thing but for now, its ok being part time.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Brian if you don't have a killer web-stie going now. Get one and start working on first in line in you are. pic you city name as the domain name
    center. A good web-stie is so key to get inspection from buyer and home owners.

    Best

    Ron


  11. #11
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Jerry,

    I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room? The 2006 IRC still says it can terminate outside (P2803.6.1) Is there a plumbing code that makes the "room requirement"? Thanks! Everyone have a nice holiday!


  12. #12
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    For the left coast guys and gals:
    CPC-2007- 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to The outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152mm) above the ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

    (I underlined the new section per the 2007 California Plumbing Code.)


    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
    Jerry,

    I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room? The 2006 IRC still says it can terminate outside (P2803.6.1) Is there a plumbing code that makes the "room requirement"? Thanks! Everyone have a nice holiday!

    Bob,

    Read P2803.6.1 (your reference) .2

    (underlining is mine)
    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Brian,
    Congratulations on your first inspection. I had my first paid inspection in September. I was glad it was a simple inspection, ranch on a slab with electric heat and hot water. Apparently I did a good job, buyers wanted some of my cards to give to their friends. Oh,and the best part was the check didn't bounce.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Jerry,

    What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?


  16. #16
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by David O'Keefe View Post
    Brian,
    Congratulations on your first inspection. I had my first paid inspection in September. I was glad it was a simple inspection, ranch on a slab with electric heat and hot water. Apparently I did a good job, buyers wanted some of my cards to give to their friends. Oh,and the best part was the check didn't bounce.

    Thanks David...congratulations to you too on your first one. Have you had any other jobs yet?

    I hope I did a good job as well. It took me awhile because my flow isnt down pat just yet but I think it went well anyway. Mine was fairly easy too as it was a split level that was all electric with no central a/c/heat pump.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    I think that there is some confusion in the meaning of discharge and terminate.
    The "New Way" also says the discharge pipe shall not cause personal injury or structural damage.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Jerry,

    I have a question for you. What code requires the TPR drain to discharge in the same room?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Bob,

    Read P2803.6.1 (your reference) .2

    (underlining is mine)
    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

    I believe if you read that section/sentence, it states the discharge pipe "air gap" should be in the same room as the water heater, not the discharge.

    Dom.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
    Jerry,

    What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?
    Sometimes there is just an oops in the thinking when things are redone. They do not always account for all scenarios. This is one of those cases where I just go with the norm or old way until all questions and unit locations are addressed. You cannot go changing anything unless those scenarios are addressed. To much else to consider. What if it is in a closet. Does a separate drain have to be installed with an air gap between the termination and drain. What if it is in a cellar. Does a separate drain and drainage system have to be installed or do you just blow it on the floor with the pipe stopping six inches above the floor. To much to consider and to much possible expense. Yes a leaking TPR valve may not get noticed until the next time you mow the grass but it will be noticed. Not all humans are idiots and most will see that a plumber corrects the concern. Sometimes the thinking community just over and out thinks themselves. Sometimes that is the problem with people just sitting around having a think tank situation. Sometimes things are better left the way they are.

    I was not going to give my 2 cents until I saw all other posts on the matter. Drain it to the exterior and leave it alone. Maybe a leak every several years. So what. It will get repaired.

    JMO


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
    What does 2803.1.5 mean when it says discharge to the outdoors? The air gap in the room and the drain continues outside? What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    I believe if you read that section/sentence, it states the discharge pipe "air gap" should be in the same room as the water heater, not the discharge.

    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

    - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system. (Jerry's note: Means that "it may" be connected to the drainage system, just "not directly connected to" the drainage system, it needs an air gap.)

    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater. (Jerry's note: The discharge pipe discharge through the air gap, and ends there at the air gap, after the air gap is an indirect waste receptor, which has a drain line which, if using an air gap, then drains to the outdoors.)
    - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap. (Jerry's note: Obvious what that say, do not reduce the valve outlet down to a smaller size.)
    - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment. (Jerry's note: Shall serve only that one relief valve.)
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area. (Jerry's note: The discharge pipe may discharge to the floor, to an indirect waster receptor - 2. above -, or to the outdoors - if the water heater is installed outdoors.)
    - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage. (Jerry's note: Regardless where it discharges to, it is not allowed to cause personal injury.)
    - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants. (Jerry's note: Means you are not allowed to hide it, which brings up the question: are water heaters now allowed in closets where the discharge is not readily observable by the occupants?)
    - - 8. Not be trapped. (Jerry's note: That one is obvious.)
    - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity. (Jerry's note: If it is not trapped, then it must drain by gravity, which means slope downhill.)
    - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor. (Jerry's note: The termination must be within 6" of the floor or water receptor to control the discharge and help prevent it from injuring the occupants.)
    - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping. (Jerry's note: So no valve, cap or other device can easily be attached.)
    - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings. (Jerry's note: Nothing to restrict or impede the flow.)
    - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. (Jerry's note: Be of materials suitable for use with potable hot water).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Drain it to the exterior and leave it alone. Maybe a leak every several years. So what. It will get repaired.
    Ted,

    I agree.

    With the valve open and flowing, the danger is going, the pressure is gone, the hot water is being cooled by the incoming cold water. When it leaks enough, there will be almost no hot water, THAT is when they call the plumber.

    The way it is being done now, they just simply cap it off to stop the leak.




    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

    Jerry,

    I'm not going to read all those paragraphs and sift through your parentheticals to try to understand what you're saying. And it's not really necessary.

    Bottom line, discharge air gap is not a discharge exit.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Bottom line, discharge air gap is not a discharge exit.

    Dom,

    Not wanting to read the complex information is what stymies you sometimes. When you do not read it all and only quote a part you think is applicable, you put yourself in the position of being incorrect because, if you were to read the entire thing, you would clearly see the requirements ARE quite clearly stated.

    Bottom line is the discharge terminates IN THE SAME ROOM AS THE WATER HEATER.

    "2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater."

    It only "terminates in the same room" through an air gap when it "terminates into the air gap".

    Thus, if continued on out of that room, the discharge terminated at the top of the air gap, which then discharged into the waste receptor at the bottom of the air gap, which then drained ("discharged") out somewhere else - "outdoors" is one of the options for that drain pipe to "discharge".

    From the air gap, is is no longer that same "discharge pipe" as, by code, that "discharge pipe" has *just terminated* ... at the air gap. The pipe at the bottom of the air gap is a different animal.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Happy Thanksgiving Jerry.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    2006 IRC Commentary says:

    "The do’s and don’ts for relief valve discharge pipes are extensive, as illustrated by the list of 13 items. Relief valves are emergency devices that are not intended to operate continuously. Any discharge must not go unnoticed, because discharge from a relief valve indicates that something is seriously wrong with the system. The termination of a relief valve discharge must be visible for observation so that corrective measures can be taken as necessary. If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system. The diameter of the discharge pipe must not be reduced or be less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. To maintain the rated capacity of the valve, the developed length of relief valve discharge piping is limited by the valve and/or appliance manufacturer’s instructions. Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors. Note that in all cases, the relief discharge pipe must discharge through an air gap before extending beyond the room in which the valve is located. The discharge pipe must terminate close to the floor level to prevent harm to building occupants (see Commentary Figure P2801.5). Water must not be allowed to discharge where it can cause structural damage. Discharge piping must drain by gravity and must not be trapped within the relief piping system. Standing water in the discharge line could freeze or cause corrosion damage to the valve mechanism. To discourage the installation of a cap, plug or valve, the code prohibits the installation of threads on the outlet end of such pipe. A relief valve discharge pipe cannot serve any other purpose or connect to any other piping because this could compromise the function of the relief valve."

    Also see: Watts Water Safety and Flow Control Products - balancing valve, ball valve, butterfly valve, check valve, relief valve, temperature gauge

    Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building.

    Aaron


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Aaron,

    Elvis *has* left the building , whenever you see him, you are seeing an impersonator.

    The same with the discharge line, the "old way" has left the building, the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" in that it now requires an air gap before the discharge leaves the room the water heater is in.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    2006 IRC Commentary says:

    "The do’s and don’ts for relief valve discharge pipes are extensive, as illustrated by the list of 13 items. Relief valves are emergency devices that are not intended to operate continuously. Any discharge must not go unnoticed, because discharge from a relief valve indicates that something is seriously wrong with the system. The termination of a relief valve discharge must be visible for observation so that corrective measures can be taken as necessary. If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system. The diameter of the discharge pipe must not be reduced or be less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. To maintain the rated capacity of the valve, the developed length of relief valve discharge piping is limited by the valve and/or appliance manufacturer’s instructions. Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors. Note that in all cases, the relief discharge pipe must discharge through an air gap before extending beyond the room in which the valve is located. The discharge pipe must terminate close to the floor level to prevent harm to building occupants (see Commentary Figure P2801.5). Water must not be allowed to discharge where it can cause structural damage. Discharge piping must drain by gravity and must not be trapped within the relief piping system. Standing water in the discharge line could freeze or cause corrosion damage to the valve mechanism. To discourage the installation of a cap, plug or valve, the code prohibits the installation of threads on the outlet end of such pipe. A relief valve discharge pipe cannot serve any other purpose or connect to any other piping because this could compromise the function of the relief valve."

    Also see: Watts Water Safety and Flow Control Products - balancing valve, ball valve, butterfly valve, check valve, relief valve, temperature gauge

    Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building.

    Aaron


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    "Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

    This indicates that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.


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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Stanley View Post
    "Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

    This indicates that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.
    Richard,

    GREAT CATCH!

    That is what it is saying the reason is.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Stanley View Post
    "Relief valve discharge piping must not be exposed to freezing temperatures because freezing water could block the pipe and disable the relief valve. The relief valve must first discharge through an air gap into an indirect waste receptor located in a heated space, which, in turn, discharges to the outdoors."

    This *indicates* that the units will no longer be allowed to be installed in un-heated attics, garages, exterior compartments, etc.
    But it does not mean you cannot have it in unheated spaces. It "indicates". Freezing climates, maybe. Temperate climates should not matter. There is enough heat escape in attics in temperate climate where this is not a concern. If I still lived in Mass I would not put my water heater in an attic or garage that is not heated anyway. So, by saying that it has not changed at all.

    If you still run the discharge to the exterior the end of the pipe where it exits the home is exposed. Again if you live up north this is not a good idea anyway and usually does not happen. So in that case nothing has changed. More temperate climates would not affect it so this has not changes either.

    Discharging through an air gap I can only think this was added is to possibly cut down end of line pressure, maybe. Not quite sure what that is all about.

    A little edit

    Aaron said "not entirely"

    "Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building."


  29. #29
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Elvis *has* left the building , whenever you see him, you are seeing an impersonator.

    The same with the discharge line, the "old way" has left the building, the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" in that it now requires an air gap before the discharge leaves the room the water heater is in.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    JP:

    An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room". However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.

    Don't be so eager to jump on people until you at least take the time to actually read and think about what they say. Especially not me.

    If you reply to this with one of your typical Tolstoyian mainfestos, you'll have to wait until this evening for a reply. I have two inspections in a deluge today and time is short.

    Aaron


  30. #30
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP:

    An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room". However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.

    Don't be so eager to jump on people until you at least take the time to actually read and think about what they say. Especially not me.

    If you reply to this with one of your typical Tolstoyian mainfestos, you'll have to wait until this evening for a reply. I have two inspections in a deluge today and time is short.

    Aaron
    Thats funny....tolstoy!


  31. #31
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    2006 IRC Commentary says:

    "If a relief valve discharges to a drainage system, the discharge must be an indirect connection through an air gap to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Discharging through an air gap I can only think this was added is to possibly cut down end of line pressure, maybe. Not quite sure what that is all about.
    First, if discharging to the drainage system, it is for, as stated in the commentary, "to prevent backflow from potentially contaminating the potable water system", and, if not connected to the drainage system but run to where there could, under any circumstance, be a similar contamination, the air gap is there for that. In fact, if you just dump it to the floor and leave the pipe 6" above the floor (as wanted by Watts to make sure there will be no pressure build-up), then you have created the air gap anyway.


    Aaron said "not entirely"

    "Back to the code, the "old way" has not entirely left the building."
    And that is why I said "- the "new way" allows for an impersonation of the "old way" -"

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    An argument could easily be supported that an attic or a garage is not a "room".
    One could, and they would then face the response that, if the attic, garage, crawlspace, etc. is not a "room", then those spaces will be considered as "outdoors" (they are considered "outdoors, not "indoors"), in which case one would only need to look at the listing and labeling for approval or rating for installation "outdoors" ... ... and they are not listed or labeled for installation "outdoors" .

    However, that is not what I was referring to. Also, if you will take the time to actually read my post, you will see that I did not disagree with you regarding the air gap, though I do disagree with the ICC's "thinking" that resulted in the wording there. What I was referring to is that the manufacturer's instructions regarding the discharge tube length, bends, etc. remains with us.
    Understood, and that is not what I was disagreeing with. The manufacturers' requirements and limitations "are in addition to" those in the code, thus, while the discharge line must be terminated in the same room as the water heater, if that is a very large room, then the manufacturer's limitation would apply.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  33. #33
    Bob Spermo's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    I would like to know how under the new rules would you install a TPR drain on a water heater in an attic!


  34. #34
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Bob, I don't see anything that would preclude installation in the attic so long as you have the air gap visible and before the drain leaves the "room" or attic.
    I don't know of any municipality that has adopted the latest version of the IRC yet, but we will see how the AHJ interprets it soon enough.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  35. #35
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    "5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area. "

    I'm trying to picture a scenario that compies with the above when the unit is installed in an attic or garage. Picture please??

    In the large majority of the country, water can freeze in an attic. Maybe not Hawaii or Key West. Actually, it can get pretty damned cold on top of those volcanoes.


  36. #36
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    One could, and they would then face the response that, if the attic, garage, crawlspace, etc. is not a "room", then those spaces will be considered as "outdoors" (they are considered "outdoors, not "indoors"), in which case one would only need to look at the listing and labeling for approval or rating for installation "outdoors" ... ... and they are not listed or labeled for installation "outdoors" .

    This already occurs with many of the builders stating that, for one isolated example, the ducts for exhaust fans can be terminated in the attic space because it is "outside the building envelope". "Building envelope" being interpreted by them as the conditioned space of the house. Of course, they stop short of terminating gas appliance vents in the attic space, but have no valid explanation as to why, given their specious set of definitions. Like building officials with their perennial selective code enforcement habits, builders have a selective set of definitions to suit any occasion.

    Understood, and that is not what I was disagreeing with. The manufacturers' requirements and limitations "are in addition to" those in the code, thus, while the discharge line must be terminated in the same room as the water heater, if that is a very large room, then the manufacturer's limitation would apply.
    "In addition to" is a term here that I cannot agree with. If only by its position within the code itself I feel that the manufacturer's installation instructions, where they regard an appliance's listing, take precedence over the code:

    "R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
    The codes and
    standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the
    requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such
    reference. Where differences occur between provisions of this
    code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this
    code shall apply.

    Exception:
    Where enforcement of a code provision would
    violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or
    appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s
    instructions shall apply."


    Now as to the ICC's unfortunate wording of this little gem, terminating the discharge tube in any space (room, if you will), in my opinion, is a mistake. Exterior termination is the only way to at least partially insure that:

    "6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal
    injury or structural damage."

    Placement of the water heater in the attic, in a closet, or in any place where the homeowner is not likely to be observing on a regular basis seems to me to negate:
    "7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable
    by the building occupants."

    But, I could write a very long book on the number of not only seeming but very real and blatant contradictions resident in any particular versions of the IRC. It only seems to get worse with every new version. I have yet to see the 2009 version, because I refuse to buy a hard copy, but it is likely even less integrous than the 2006 model . . .

    As usual, it's always a pleasure to trade words with you JP,

    Aaron



  37. #37
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Exception:
    Where enforcement of a code provision would
    violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or
    appliance,


    Aaron,

    Therein lies the catch.

    Doing what the manufacturers "allows" and what the code "requires".

    In this case, the manufacturer "allows" certain things, while the code "requires" certain other things.

    Example: If the manufacturer "allows" the discharge line to be up to 30 feet long with no more than 4 elbows, those requirements are not "violated" by a code requiring the discharge line to be 3 feet long, with one elbow (I know, that is not what the code requires, I am just giving an example). In this case, installing to code *does not violate* the manufacturer's listing and labeling or its installation instructions.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    [/left]


    Aaron,

    Therein lies the catch.

    Doing what the manufacturers "allows" and what the code "requires".

    In this case, the manufacturer "allows" certain things, while the code "requires" certain other things.

    Example: If the manufacturer "allows" the discharge line to be up to 30 feet long with no more than 4 elbows, those requirements are not "violated" by a code requiring the discharge line to be 3 feet long, with one elbow (I know, that is not what the code requires, I am just giving an example). In this case, installing to code *does not violate* the manufacturer's listing and labeling or its installation instructions.
    [/left]
    JP:
    No one is arguing that, in this particular instance, installing to code violates the manufacturer's installation instructions. So then, why are we discussing it?

    Aaron


  39. #39
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP:
    No one is arguing that, in this particular instance, installing to code violates the manufacturer's installation instructions. So then, why are we discussing it?

    Aaron

    Because I thought that was the reason you posted the code reference you did ... that it was violating the MII to install to code ...

    Besides, the code says "Water heaters shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  40. #40
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Because I thought that was the reason you posted the code reference you did ... that it was violating the MII to install to code ...

    Besides, the code says "Water heaters shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code."
    JP:

    But, in fact, the reason for my post was not to make any such point. It was merely to state that not all of the "old way", as you say, was done away with in the "new way" of doing TPR drain line things. That's all, I swear it.

    Jeez! I'm glad you are just a mere Peck. A Bushel of that stuff would be just too much!

    Aaron


  41. #41
    Bernardo Golner's Avatar
    Bernardo Golner Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Brian,
    I'm happy I missed all this enriched knowledge exchange, because the thanksgiving weekend with family, I got lost in the arguments and honesty I don't recall (may because ignorance) any water heaters TPRs in those classic russian novels. Sorry, never imagined the codes linked to a Tolstoy's manifesto (is there any?)
    Almost sure you got your answer, anyway taking this inspection as my own, I would modesty report that this piping is not meeting code (any known by me) and also is not meeting manufacturers directions (any known by me).
    Between us "common sense", perhaps from the Tolstoy's "scientific positivism" , flow blocked because so many elbows, no "visible" discharge are basic enough to report to homeowner, suggest to get a well known local "licensed, bonded and insured" contractor to re route the piping, meeting both common requirements code an manufacturer directions, if this is an existing house should be some code exceptions to easy the way.
    Regards.
    Bernardo


  42. #42
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    "Tolstoy's "scientific positivism""

    Excellent!

    Aaron


  43. #43

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    For the left coast guys and gals:
    CPC-2007- 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to The outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152mm) above the ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.

    (I underlined the new section per the 2007 California Plumbing Code.)
    I've been following this Code for many years. Nothing new here. The only option is to use a Watts 210 to shut off the gas. Never found a good solution in this case for electric though.
    Dana "on the left coast"

    True Professionals, Inc. Property Consultant
    877-466-8504

  44. #44

    Default Re: TPR extension

    This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
    Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
    Can someone explain to me what this could be.
    Thanks


  45. #45

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Manzoor Husain View Post
    This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
    Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
    Can someone explain to me what this could be.
    Thanks
    To flush the spiders out of the line??

    True Professionals, Inc. Property Consultant
    877-466-8504

  46. #46
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Bostick View Post
    To flush the spiders out of the line??
    Dana:

    Regarding your signature concerning political correctness:

    Ruth Perry traces the term back to Mao's Little Red Book. According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist censorship, it was used by the political right in the United States to try to discredit the Old and New Left.

    Aaron


  47. #47
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Dana:

    Regarding your signature concerning political correctness:

    Ruth Perry traces the term back to Mao's Little Red Book. According to Perry, the term was later adopted by the radical left in the 1960s, initially seriously and later ironically, as a self-criticism of dogmatic attitudes. In the 1990s, because of the term's association with radical politics and communist censorship, it was used by the political right in the United States to try to discredit the Old and New Left.

    Aaron
    Aaron,

    You are, of course, referring to this:
    "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an mainstream media,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
    You, I and others know that there is a center, a left, and a right, and the center is really just the right of the left and the left of the right, so, there really is just a left and a right, all boiling down to the fact that, while the left delude themselves into thinking the turd has a clean end which they can use to pick it up by, the right deludes themselves into thinking the entire turd is not dirty to start with, thus, they put it on their plates and pass it around the table, realizing that there is no difference between ingesting a turd and expelling diarrhea of the mouth.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  48. #48
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    the right deludes themselves into thinking the entire turd is not dirty to start with, thus, they put it on their plates and pass it around the table, realizing that there is no difference between ingesting a turd and expelling diarrhea of the mouth.
    JP:

    Very well said.

    Aaron


  49. #49

    Default Re: TPR extension

    WOAH! did this thread take a left turn or what?
    LOL, Dana

    True Professionals, Inc. Property Consultant
    877-466-8504

  50. #50
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Dana Bostick View Post
    WOAH! did this thread take a left turn or what?
    LOL, Dana
    Dana:

    Right you are.

    Aaron


  51. #51
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    jerry,
    well said my steaming colleague.


  52. #52

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Re: TPR extension
    This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
    Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
    Can someone explain to me what this could be.
    Thanks

    Any other ideas


  53. #53
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Manzoor Husain View Post
    Re: TPR extension
    This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
    Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
    Can someone explain to me what this could be.
    Thanks

    Any other ideas
    Other than just plain wrong, I can't think of another description. Where did the tubing terminate?

    Aaron


  54. #54
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Manzoor Husain View Post
    Re: TPR extension
    This a somewhat related subject. I was inspecting a house last week and came across this installation on the water heater.There was a tee on the discharge pipe from the TPR valve, located about halfway down the vertical drop. A reducer on the tee connected a small bore "PVC" flexible pipe about 1/4"dia. to the valve on the cold water line of the water heater.
    Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show.
    Can someone explain to me what this could be.
    Thanks

    Any other ideas
    Manzoor - That sounds very bizarre. I have no explanation. It's wrong, of course.

    On a probably unrelated note, if you would go to the UserCP in the upper left and fill in your location (Town/City, State/Country, etc.), it could be helpful in responding to your questions.


  55. #55
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    As with John and Aaron, I have no idea what the concept was behind what they thought they were doing ... but agree that it is wrong, plain wrong, and it needs to be removed and the T&P line replaced.

    My 'stranger than fiction' thought on what it might be was (but, why would anyone do this or think this is beyond me) that was a 'flushing line' connected to the cold water inlet to allow cold water to 'flush out' the T&P line, or, even stranger than that, the line was a 'bleed line' to bleed some of the discharging water back to the cold water side - now that is bazaar. Told you it was stranger than fiction.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  56. #56
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Maybe a rigged bleed line to allow the "winterizing" of the water lines?
    No matter what it is though, it is not allowed under any circumstances.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  57. #57
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    My 'stranger than fiction' thought on what it might be was (but, why would anyone do this or think this is beyond me) that was a 'flushing line' connected to the cold water inlet to allow cold water to 'flush out' the T&P line, or, even stranger than that, the line was a 'bleed line' to bleed some of the discharging water back to the cold water side - now that is bazaar. Told you it was stranger than fiction.
    JP: Could be run to the master suite's bidet or the kitchen vegetable sprayer as a warning to the occupant that the TPR has acctuated.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    What do you do when the water heater is in the attic like much of Texas?
    Around here the Water heater is in a pan. The TP is a couple of inches above the pan. The pan drains to the exterior.

    I have seen a few new homes lately that the wh is in the crawl space. At the foundation wall the tp line stops over a funnel that is terminated to the exterior. Thought that was a little extreme. Why you can't plumb straight out the foundation I have no clue...........

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  59. #59
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    UPdate on the TPR extension...My client had the TPR extension looked at by a roto rooter plumber and he signed off on it as it being a solid setup that needed no changes. Apparantly the many 90 degree elbows and the length of the pipe and it being discharged into a sealed sump pump crock was satisfactory to him. Fine by me, as long as he signed off on it as being ok!


  60. #60
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomas View Post
    Fine by me, as long as he signed off on it as being ok!
    Brian,

    That plumber probably said "Nothing wrong with that, I install them like that all the time."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  61. #61
    Brian Thomas's Avatar
    Brian Thomas Guest

    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Brian,

    That plumber probably said "Nothing wrong with that, I install them like that all the time."
    probably does! At least i shouldnt have to worry about it coming back on me now


  62. #62
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Todays inspection had me pause to think through this installation.

    Electric water heater installed in crawlspace next to foundation wall. TPR either does not have a discharge pipe or it is less than 1 inch in length. TPR discharges directly into 1.5 inch PVC pipe that passes through foundation wall to the exterior.

    The TPR actually discharges into the elbow so if it ever discharges it will probably splash more out than will flow down the pipe. The water will end up in the crawlspace.

    There is an air gap between the TPR and PVC pipe and the pipe exits to the exterior. Waddya think? Reportable defect?

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
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  63. #63
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    it's wrong. cut off the pvc 90 and use whats left for a sleeve for extending a compliant line.


  64. #64
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Compliant? How does PVC comply for hot water and protection from UV rays on the exterior of the structure?


  65. #65
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    Default Re: TPR extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    TPR discharges directly into 1.5 inch PVC pipe that passes through foundation wall to the exterior.

    There is an air gap between the TPR and PVC pipe and the pipe exits to the exterior. Waddya think? Reportable defect?

    First, yes, write it up - PVC cannot be used for ... er ... okay it "CAN BE" used for that because you have a photo of it, so I will re-phrase ... PVC *is not allowed to be* used for that use, it will soften and melt.

    Second, there is no "air gap", that is an "air break", except that it is not even and "air break" - that's the closest thing I can think of that it is too ... wait a minute ... just thought of something closer ... that is - "All wrong!"

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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