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Thread: CSST on report

  1. #1
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default CSST on report

    Whenever you folks find CSST installed without a 6awg copper bond wire, do you put that defect in the electrical section or plumbing/mechanical section of your report?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Nope.

    Almost always (if not always) the CSST is bonded through rigid gas piping sections it is attached to, or back at the meter (I said 'almost always' as 'I guess' you could have CSST run all the way back to the meter ... but then ... the meter would likely have the bond at it).

    Now, if none of the gas piping is bonded, that's a different story altogether. In which case, the answer would be 'Yes.'

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Speeking of CSST I have inspected an abnormal amount of the stuff that is not protected in the attic near the HVAC or water heater. I use to never find it unprotected. Now it seems things are getting a bit slack. The last three new homes I found it where it could be easily walked on. One you had to lift your foot way up to step over it. Another crossed right over the corner of the pull down stair opening.

    Oh yeah. other than bonded to the black gas pipe I never see it bonded directly with its own wire.


  4. #4
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    The rigid gas "black pipe" is only required to be bonded by the EGC of the circuit likely to become energized. So if you have rigid feeding a small boiler that has a 15A circuit, you will only have a 14awg EGC connected therefore satisfying the code.

    The Gastite CSST requires a 6awg copper bonding wire so the approved connection for the rigid does not meet the minimums for the CSST.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    I almost never find it bonded properly, so yes I call it out and include links to more information since this is new territory to many folks even in the trades.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    The rigid gas "black pipe" is only required to be bonded by the EGC of the circuit likely to become energized. So if you have rigid feeding a small boiler that has a 15A circuit, you will only have a 14awg EGC connected therefore satisfying the code.
    This same discussion happened recently, and as I recall, the answer was: It depends."

    The Gastite CSST requires a 6awg copper bonding wire so the approved connection for the rigid does not meet the minimums for the CSST.
    Show me where you get both your statements from.

    Thanks.

    By the, you asked about "find CSST installed without a 6awg copper bond wire" and answered with "Gastite CSST requires a 6awg copper bonding wire ". I looked through my Gastite manual (2008) and did not find that listed as you state it. Could be my 2008 manual is out of date already? Also looked through my TracPipe (Omegaflex) and did not see it there either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    http://www.gastite.com/include/langu.../TB2008_01.pdf

    Technical Bulletin #TB2008-01
    Electrical Bonding of Gastite® CSST July 15, 2008

    ...The bonding conductor shall be no smaller than a 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. The
    bonding jumper shall be attached in an approved manner in accordance with NEC Article 250.70 and the
    point of attachment for the bonding jumper shall be accessible. Bonding/grounding clamps shall be installed
    in accordance with its listing per UL 467and shall make metal-to-metal contact with the piping. This bond is
    in addition to any other bonding requirements as specified by local codes...


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  8. #8
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    And for Parker brand

    http://www.parker.com/literature/Par...r_2007_web.pdf

    The wire gauge for bonding must be sized, at a
    minimum, for the full amperage available through the electrical service (per NEC&#174 and no smaller than a 6
    AWG copper wire.

    Jerry, you may want to subscribe to technical bulletins so that you are up to date on current installatiion requirements.


  9. #9
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    And for Parker brand

    http://www.parker.com/literature/Par...r_2007_web.pdf

    The wire gauge for bonding must be sized, at a
    minimum, for the full amperage available through the electrical service (per NEC®) and no smaller than a 6
    AWG copper wire.

    Jerry, you may want to subscribe to technical bulletins so that you are up to date on current installatiion requirements.
    I always love these statements

    "This design manual provides basic guidelines to follow in the design, installation, testing, repairing or use
    ("Application") of fuel gas piping systems using Parker Parflex™ corrugated stainless steel tubing, systems
    and related accessories ("CSST"). The Application procedures must comply with local building codes. When
    local codes do not exist, Application must comply with the National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54
    (USA) or Installation Codes Canadian CGA B149.1 and B149.2. Please see the entire Parflex System Design
    and Installation Guide for complete instructions."


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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Jeff,

    There was a big hullabaloo about those clamps shown in those guides as not being listed and labeled for that use (NOT listed and labeled for clamping on those nuts), thus the point of connection for those clamps had to be moved to a point where those clamps were listed and labeled to be used - to the rigid gas piping ... *not* on those nuts used for assembly of the gas piping.

    Nonetheless, my other question (you may think of it as a statement) was:
    By the, you asked about "find CSST installed without a 6awg copper bond wire" and answered with "Gastite CSST requires a 6awg copper bonding wire ".
    Unless you have read each and every CSST manufacturer's installation instructions and they all require that 6 AWG bonding conductor, your question should not have been all encompassing regarding , as you asked, "Whenever you folks find CSST installed without a 6awg copper bond wire".

    I am sure you will respond with something like 'Boy, you sure are being picky.', and to that I respond 'Yeah. Have to be, statements we make are used to help others, and mis-statements we make either make other write things up incorrectly or confuse others (heck, even confuse ourselves).

    Ask me how I know ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    So, anyway. The question was about WHERE on your report you place this information and not one person has answered the question. Once again, simple question without an answer to the actual question.

    Now for the reason behind the question. It has become debatable as to who is responsible for the bonding. Some electricians say it is not their job and it is the job of the pipe/csst installer. The pipe installers are saying they are not qualified to tie into electrical systems.

    I thought that since the industries fight over responsibilities, we may need to think about where we put it in our reports. There is not a right or wrong answer here, just sharing information as to where we place a defect on a report.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    We have an option section with a gas line section under that. We also have a seperate electric section and with out the prticular gasline section I would be it in the electric concidering it deals with the service and branch circuits. Under the service section is where I put bonding and grounding.


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    Default Re: CSST on report

    I always list it in the plumbing section since I talk about the gas service there. I have also had trades argue over who is responsible, but I would think that they could work together to make it happen.

    Not my problem now. It is a defect and now someone needs to make it right.

    If it weren't for lawyers, we would never need them.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    I too place it in the electrical section under bonding and grounding.

    As an FYI, I check with 4 manufacturers of CSST and 3 out of 4 require the minimum 6awg copper bonding wire. The fourth referred to bonding per NFPA 54 which is essentially the same language as the NEC.


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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Both sections could be appropriate, but "neither" applies in TX since we are required to use the state mandated format which breaks down the report by system with the Gas Line as an Optional system just like swimming pools, septic systems, etc. NOT in the "plumbing/mechanical" sections. (I did not make the form, I just use it)
    In reality it is "electrical bonding" that plumbers are not qualified to do so it would fall to the electricians to perform the electrical bonding to all systems that require it.
    You have a good point though, both trades point the finger at the other and neither gets it done around here.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  16. #16
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Very interesting Jim. Amazing how a state can mandate how the report is broken down into sections.


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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    So, anyway. The question was about WHERE on your report you place this information

    ALL "electrical" goes in the "electrical section".

    I did not answer that as, to me, that has always seemed obvious.

    If the pool bond is missing, does it go in the pool section or in the electrical section?

    My reports were geographical/systematical in that I inspected geographical and entered the information geographically speaking (indicating where I was and what I was looking at), then the information went into the report two ways: 1) the entire description, including defects, of where I was and what I was looking at went into the report regarding the geographical location; 2) the defects also went to a defect section in each system of the report, with the geographical location and what I was looking at leading off the defect.

    Back to your question and here is an example:

    Looking at the gas meter on the left side of the house and there is a bond wire at the meter, and the bond wire is not connected. That would all go where I put the gas stuff. The bond wire being disconnected would also go to the electrical section, starting off as Gas Meter, Left side - bond wire not connected to the interior gas piping system (or whatever wording you want to use).

    That way, the "electrician" knows the bond wire for the interior gas piping system is *not connected* and that he can find that on the left side at the gas meter.

    Just the way I wrote my program to work, but it made sense to me to do it that way.

    The client can look at the report and see that the gas meter is on the left side and that the bond wire is not connected, no need to look through the report to find the electrical section and search for that - it was all at one location for them.

    All of that was done automatically when I clicked the 'OK' button to enter the information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Very interesting Jim. Amazing how a state can mandate how the report is broken down into sections.
    It makes it nice and tidy. With a formatted reporting system one would expect that every home inspector must follow it. No questions at least on the areas that need to be touch on. Any report software has to conform to this formatting.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    I should open up one of those Texas report files on my 3D software and take a looksy


  20. #20
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    I should open up one of those Texas report files on my 3D software and take a looksy
    I am about to send you an email with the new trec form. It is a draft of the new form


  21. #21
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Thanks, i will download and take a look. I recently installed the Ver11 and don't know if there are any new Tx forms on that one. I never had a reason to open one up and look at it.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    If I find that the gas in general is not bonded I insert the following:

    · Repair: The natural gas piping should be bonded to the electrical system to help dissipate the static charge that can build up in the gas lines due to the high flow of gas. A licensed plumber or electrician should be enlisted to correct this. This is particularly important when CSST is utilized in the piping as a lightning strike will actually burn holes through the thin walls of the pipe and allow for a possible explosion.

    Should the black pipe be bonded, I do not recommend further bonding because the CSST will conduct electricity bac to the bond on the black pipe.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Randolph View Post
    If I find that the gas in general is not bonded I insert the following:

    · Repair: The natural gas piping should be bonded to the electrical system to help dissipate the static charge that can build up in the gas lines due to the high flow of gas. A licensed plumber or electrician should be enlisted to correct this. This is particularly important when CSST is utilized in the piping as a lightning strike will actually burn holes through the thin walls of the pipe and allow for a possible explosion.

    Should the black pipe be bonded, I do not recommend further bonding because the CSST will conduct electricity back to the bond on the black pipe.
    Not arguing that this is not possible, but that is not the purpose of bonding the gas piping according to the code.
    Sorry, but that must be more inspector lore and it just sounds dumb.
    Again, it may be possible, may be a concern in gas plants, etc. but I have never heard of this in a residential setting.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  24. #24
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    RE: Texas 7A-1 Report Form (actually 7A-0 as well).

    Location of bonding requirement statement for CSST:

    There is nothing that says you can't put the same comment in multiple locations. I've been known to do that more than once. Has been discussed many times in multiple CE classes I've been to over the years.


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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Randolph View Post
    If I find that the gas in general is not bonded I insert the following:

    · Repair: The natural gas piping
    Do you have separate comments for LPG (Propane) and LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas)?

    If not, I would delete the word "natural" from there.

    Plus, as Jim said, that (lightning) is not the reason gas piping is bonded. Like water piping, gas piping is bonded to ground in case it becomes energized (such as by a hot wire coming in contact with it, etc.).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Plus, as Jim said, that (lightning) is not the reason gas piping is bonded. Like water piping, gas piping is bonded to ground in case it becomes energized (such as by a hot wire coming in contact with it, etc.).
    Not what I was talking about Jerry. Lightening is THE reason for the hubbub on CSST and the reason for the heavier bonding wire required.
    I agree with you on Iron pipe though.
    My main thought was about the "to help dissipate the static charge that can build up in the gas lines due to the high flow of gas" comment.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  27. #27
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Not what I was talking about Jerry. Lightening is THE reason for the hubbub on CSST and the reason for the heavier bonding wire required.
    ... "or the heavier bonding wire"

    I am talking about, and thought he was talking about, the reason FOR BONDING the gas piping ... which is not lightning, but being energized by some other means.

    I agree with you on Iron pipe though.
    It's the same reason for bonding all gas piping.

    I know the hullabaloo came about because of lightning strikes, but using a heavier bonding wire is NOT going to stop or reduce that. The problems with CSST and lightning happens before the lightning current ever reaches the bonding wire, by then, those holes are still burned into the CSST.

    I have not researched that enough to know more than that, *but I suspect* that to solve the problem with CSST and lightning one would have to run the bond wire the entire length of the CSST, and that just ain't gonna happen. Even then, the CSST may be hit as the bonding wire and the CSST are not in metallic and electrical contact with each other, there is that covering around the CSST, and the bond wire is allowed to be insulated, meaning you could have arcing going back and forth between the CSST and the fully length bonding wire, actually making the problem worse - just my thoughts on it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Kienitz View Post
    RE: Texas 7A-1 Report Form (actually 7A-0 as well).

    Location of bonding requirement statement for CSST:

    There is nothing that says you can't put the same comment in multiple locations. I've been known to do that more than once. Has been discussed many times in multiple CE classes I've been to over the years.
    Anything to do with gas or electric combined I put in both areas. HVAC and WH for sed traps I put in all areas.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Jerry, I understand your opinion.
    The manufacturers require the bonding in response to lightening strike damage and the lawsuits.
    Now it may not be effective in alleviating damage from lightening, but it is the reason for the increase in bonding requirements over the standard bonding required on all metal piping systems.

    One company makes a product called "Counter Strike" that may be close to what your thought are on the subject.

    http://www.gastite.com/include/langu.../TB2008_01.pdf
    Proper bonding and grounding will reduce the risk of damage and fire from a lightning strike. Lightning is a
    highly destructive force. Even a nearby lightning strike that does not strike a structure directly can cause all
    electrically conductive systems in the structure to become energized. If these systems are not adequately
    bonded, the difference in electrical potential between the systems may cause the charge to arc from one
    system to another. Arcing can cause damage to CSST. Direct bonding and grounding as set forth above will
    reduce the risk of arcing and related damage over a non direct bonded system.


    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  30. #30
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    Default Re: CSST on report

    Jim,

    That document addresses what I referred to in my post below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There was a big hullabaloo about those clamps shown in those guides as not being listed and labeled for that use (NOT listed and labeled for clamping on those nuts), thus the point of connection for those clamps had to be moved to a point where those clamps were listed and labeled to be used - to the rigid gas piping ... *not* on those nuts used for assembly of the gas piping.
    Note that the document you linked to specifically prohibits the clamps placed where they were in the document Jeff linked to (with the clamps on the CSST connection nuts).

    The document you linked to requires the connection point to be *between* the meter and the CSST - not at either (meaning it could be from the piping leaving the meter to the piping which the CSST connects to, any where in between those two points - which may only be a 2" long nipple.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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