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Thread: Toilet Fatality

  1. #1
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    "A good-quality firearm also should not fire if it is dropped,"

    That was my first thought as I read it too ... the gun falls to the floor and goes off?

    Was the gun's aim just off and it was trying to shoot him? Might happen next time.

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  3. #3
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    I am asuming it is not a revolver. As far as a semi why would there be a round in the chamber. Sounds like wild bill to me. Even the auto it would have to be cocked. Cocking it could have happened getting caught on his clthes I guess. Just cause one has a conceled weapon permit it does not mean they should be walking around with a hand gun with one in the chamber. A split second can do that when needed.

    Fell out, hit the toilet on the way down, it cocked at that point then hit the floor just right and went off.

    He was probably about to hit someone and went and put a round in the chamber and just as it snapped back he had his finger depressed slightly on the trigger and bang.

    Either that just exciting himself in the toiulet playng with his 2 guns and one went off before the other


  4. #4
    Mauritz Nordstrom's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Toilet Fatality

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    As far as a semi why would there be a round in the chamber.
    That's the way many of us were trained. There's no mechanical reason to not have a round chambered with current pistols that have firing pin blocks. Training and proficiency also overcome the issue for those of us with older pistols.

    For example, current semi-auto pistols from the major manufacturers, for the most part, don't need to have an empty chamber because the firing pin is kept from moving forward until the trigger is pulled. For example, the Beretta 92-series pistols, S&W pistols, Glock pistols, etc., will not fire if they are dropped on their nose. These weapons will only fire if some nimrod sticks his finger in the trigger guard and pulls. Without that happening, the pistol is just a brick.

    The same concerns were addressed years earlier with revolvers. The current list of double action revolvers, for the most part, don't need to have an empty chamber in front of the firing pin when they are carried. However, over a generation ago (maybe a bit more) the single action revolvers were carried on an empty chamber simply because they could be dropped on their nose and discharged. The firing pin could strike the primer under those circumstances.

    I'm not into single action shooting, so I don't know if such a thing still needs to be done with the reproduction single action revolvers currently made. Perhaps the cowboy shooters still carry the reproduction Colts in that fashion. Again, I'm not sure.

    Even the auto it would have to be cocked. Cocking it could have happened getting caught on his clthes I guess.
    Actually, if it was a Series 70 Colt 1911, it could have discharged if it was dropped on its nose - cocked or not cocked. That's why Colt went to the Series 80, which people ended up not liking due to the firing pin block. Colt is again making the Series 70, but with a different bushing, because of a demand for the pistol. Otherwise, it's just like the older Series 70 but with a stronger firing pin spring to eliminate the nose drop discharge.

    Just cause one has a conceled weapon permit it does not mean they should be walking around with a hand gun with one in the chamber.
    Absolutely true! A CCW means nothing in terms of weapon proficiency. That's an entirely different issue that too many people ignore. They need to practice the right way to handle the weapon, not just practice, to keep their muscle memory up and their maintain confidence in their weapon and their own capabilities.

    A split second can do that when needed.
    I disagree in part. If someone is only comfortable and is proficient in this manner of carry, it's what they need to do. They need to feel comfortable and proficient if they're going to carry a weapon, otherwise they shouldn't be carrying it.

    However, you would be surprised how far an attacker can travel and get to you before the threat is recognized, an action decision is made, the action decision is acted upon, and in this case the additional action (chambering a round) is completed, and then the action decision is completed.

    For example, let's say there's an attacker with a concealed knife standing 25' from you across a large room. He has the advantage because he makes his decision to attack before you even perceive his action or perceive him.

    From the studies I've read, it will take on average .75 seconds for your eyes to send the message to your brain. Then, it will take another .75 seconds for you to understand what your eyes have seen and make a decision to act. Finally, it will take another .75 seconds for you to send that decision towards whatever action you chose. For example, you may want to flee instead of fight. In any case, that's 2.25 seconds before you present your defensive action or begin to flee.

    In that 2.25 seconds, do you think that the attacker will have been able to cross the room with his kife exposed? I bet you would be surprised at how far he would have progressed. It would place him right on top of you because he started with the element of surprise. He was ahead of your decision process because his decision to act had already been made and he was already acting on his decision.

    Now, how about adding another .5 to .75 seconds or so to chamber a round in your pistol. No matter ho long it takes, you're still well over 2 seconds or so as your weapon just clears leather, except you now have the business end of the attacker's knife "offending" your interior personal space.

    Fell out, hit the toilet on the way down, it cocked at that point then hit the floor just right and went off.

    He was probably about to hit someone and went and put a round in the chamber and just as it snapped back he had his finger depressed slightly on the trigger and bang.

    Either that just exciting himself in the toiulet playng with his 2 guns and one went off before the other
    IMO he didn't just "drop the gun," he wanted to play with something and he made the wrong choice. He was fiddling with it, perhaps unloaded it while doing some dry firing, reloaded it but forgot that he reloaded it, and then tried to dry fire again. At that point he had a big OOOOPs when he was shooting as some "fish in the barrel."

    The only thing he could do was to say, "but officer it dropped and it just went off." Unless somebody wanted to investigate an accidental discharge with only property damage where nobody was hurt, I'm sure they just let it slide.

    I think it just proves a good training practice is to keep you finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Here's the rules I follow:

    1) All guns are always loaded. It doesn't mean to keep them loaded. It means that if you're not sure if it's loaded or if you know it's unloaded, still treat it as though it's loaded. If you don't remember if it's loaded, check it.

    2) Only point your weapon at a target you're willing to shoot or destroy.

    3) Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready and willing to shoot.

    If he had followed those three rules, the toilet would still be alive. However, I guess I would add a rule 4 just for him.

    4) Don't play with your gun in a public toilet. It doesn't matter which gun applies.

    Okay, that's my opinion if anyone's interested. Take care all and "keep you finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot."


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    Talking Re: Toilet Fatality

    I agree with everything Mauritz just taught everyone...

    Except he didn't mention Kahr... and that's what I carry...

    We know why you fly: because the bus is too expensive and the railroad has a dress code...
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  6. #6
    Stephen Houmard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    I could do that, smash a toilet....when my wife makes her Chili.
    Lots of fiber
    I find this hard to belive, the gun went off by accident.

    Last edited by Stephen Houmard; 01-16-2009 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mauritz Nordstrom View Post
    IMO he didn't just "drop the gun," he wanted to play with something and he made the wrong choice. He was fiddling with it, perhaps unloaded it while doing some dry firing, reloaded it but forgot that he reloaded it, and then tried to dry fire again. At that point he had a big OOOOPs when he was shooting as some "fish in the barrel."
    Which supports my second thought (I posted my first thought about it):

    There is no "mess" on the floor, just pieces of the toilet. The CLEAN WATER spread out over the floor with the pieces. Which indicates he had already flushed it. Maybe he flushed it while still sitting on it?

    Besides, if he was turned around backward and hitching up his pants, wouldn't his butt have the pieces in it and not his arms?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Sorry. I am not buying the 3 second deal. If it took me 3 seconds thoughout my life to react I would have been dead a hundred times. Maybe now that I am older and half dead but in most of my life it would not have taken 3 seconds to percieve a threat and take it out. I may have been unlike others in my life but many things I have done required much faster reflexes. If he is going to take 3 seconds to take care of business what the hell is he carrying a loaded semi around with one in the chamber. The one in the chamber exclusion is a must unless he is on duty. The reason you don't have one in the chamber is because stupid accidents do happen. What if that a**hole shot someone in the stall next to him like your child. Ah, now I think you can overcome your one in the chamber crap and oh the gun just won't go off because it is not designed like that. That does not dismiss the vast amount of idiots out there that have hand guns that should not. How many accidents happen yearly. How many people are dead from things that OH, just could not happen. I like guns. I like the feel. I like the weight. I like the smell. I like the power. Problem is there are to many out there that own hand guns just for those reasons and no other. I also know that the only time I used one other than a couple of hunting trips was as a weapon. I saw all to many times what the receiving end of a gun does. I have seen rifles jamn in full auto and saw the mayhem that that caused to others, and not the bad guys. Sorry I have seen to many accidents happen in life and there is just no excuse.

    Not sayning it is not true in many cases but if this man is carrying a handgun then he better be a little quicker than just sitting there in a daze for three seconds.


    Yes. My belief he was playng with his 2 hand guns. The excitement to him to have one cold and one hot gun in his hands was too much for him and like I said one of his guns went off prematurely.

    I was being nice with all the other unlikely scenarios.

    Now. Thats my 2 cents worth.

    Please. Try not to make excuses for how things should work and are designed to not do. We are talking about an big explosion taking place in a confined, sealed chamber other than one end and when it blows out that unsealed end it reeks havoc. That toilet could have been someone and there should be an examination/investigation. If it is found that the gun is not defective he should be charged. Examples have to be made out of fools carrying loaded weapons around that make stupid mistakes. Especially someone that has a consealed weapons permit. The guy is a ass and should be treated as such. He should be much more intelligent than that. I also think there should be an IQ test done and can't be the son of his sister.

    Sorry about all that.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Good morning, Gents!

    Great thread! I was surprised to learn that several Home Inspectors on this board are ex-cops. As an active cop myself (having wrapped up one of the most boring shifts in history last night – except that I did manage to make a 75 year old man cry), I have to agree with everything Mauritz said. I understand Ted’s position, but I disagree with it, and I think that Ted would probably change his mind with some practical gunfighting training (not a class suited for everyone). I have carried concealed weapons for over 105,000 hours under a variety of conditions and virtually all of that time, there was a round in the chamber, “locked and loaded” and the safety was off (actually none of my handguns have a safety – that would slow things down).

    Having faced a variety of guns and knives, I can assure you Ted, 0.00001 seconds is way too long to wait to cock or switch a safety – way too long for a cop, and way too long for Mrs. Jones while protecting her kids in her home. The only weapons I have that have a safety are department issued shotgun and AR-15 in my cruiser (I'm too cheap to buy my own).

    An unloaded gun, in the hands of an honest, trained, law abiding citizen is known as an “hammer.” An unloaded locked up gun, is known as an financial investment. At least with an hammer, you can beat an assailant over the head.

    The news media never mentions it, and tries to ignore it (and even tried to deny it), but good decent armed Americans each year prevent more crime than do I and all my brothers in blue combined.

    If you are going to carry a gun, be serious and responsible about it. Know it, respect it, keep it clean, keep it ready, loaded, immediately accessible and make sure you too are ready and well prepared at all times you have it.

    Fear the government that fears your guns.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín

    BTW: I’ve never dropped my gun while in a public toilet, but I did drop my concealed handcuffs in a stall once. I can only imagine what the guy in the next stall must have been thinking as he stood next to me at the sink washing hands.

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG

    Last edited by Caoimhín P. Connell; 01-16-2009 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Added BTW

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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    from www.shootingwire.com

    Outdoor Wire Names Obama "Gun Salesman of the Year"

    In recognition of the unprecedented demand for firearms by nervous consumers, The Outdoor Wire has named President-elect Barack Obama its "Gun Salesman of the Year". For me, it was a simple fact of recognizing that without President-elect Obama's frightening consumers into action, the firearms industry might be suffering the same sort of business slumps that have befallen the automotive and housing industries.

    It's credit where credit is due. Mr. Obama has consistently voted against individual rights to firearms, appointed a re-tread Clinton administration full of gun banners, and made it plain to anti-gun groups that despite what he might say to the contrary, he's on their side That history, along with the unquestioned support of anti-gun organizations has spooked consumers into a buying frenzy for firearms that could be outlawed in another Assault Weapons Ban.

    Manufacturers are months behind on orders for semi-automatic pistols, AR-style rifles, and anything with so-called 'high-capacity magazines, buyers we've surveyed across the country seem to have a single explanation for their rush to purchase firearms - Obama.

    The buying panic is not limited to people you might be described as aficionados or even 'gun nuts'. Recently, I was in a gun store when a gentleman came and said he'd never wanted to own a gun before, but wanted to get one while he still could."

    Since the November Presidential election, firearms sales have been at unprecedented levels. For December 2008 the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) recorded a twenty-four percent increase in background checks for 2008 (1,523,426) over December 2007 (1,230,525).

    This follows a forty-two percent (42%) increase in November 2008, the highest number of NICS checks in the system's history. Those FBI background checks are required under federal law for all individuals purchasing firearms from federally licensed firearms retailers. In other words, gun sales have never been better.

    Sales are so good that on Tuesday, January 6, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) issued a notice to all federal firearms licensees that "an unprecedented increase in demand for ATF Form 4473 had run supplies low enough that dealers were temporarily given permission to photocopy the form until supplies caught up with demand. Completion of a form 4473 is required whenever a federal firearms licensee sells a firearm.

    As a journalist with more than two decades of national newsgathering experience, I've never seen anything approaching what he calls the "Obama effect". In fact, gun and ammunition sales are at such frantic levels that they have surpassed the panic-buying of Y2K or anything during the Clinton years when the first Assault Weapons Ban was passed. This time, he says, concerned consumers are buying guns and ammunition in anticipation of Obama Administration actions to prohibit certain types of firearms.

    In 1999, the fear was that computers would shut down, crippling the world. Those fears were unfounded. I don't think the fears of an Obama administration banning guns are unfounded. His record speaks for itself. He's never failed to support an anti-gun measure, despite saying he supports the Second Amendment.

    Moves to prohibit firearms sales would drastically impact a billion-dollar industry that is not only healthy, but pours more than one hundred fifty million dollars annually into conservation programs through an eleven percent tax collected on guns and ammo.

    The Pittman-Robertson Act provides the vast majority of funding for wildlife agencies at the federal, state and local levels and that money comes directly from the tax levied against gun owners. Damaging the firearms industry won't just put workers in the gun business out of work, it will severely impact wildlife and conservation efforts nationally. That damage could take decades to repair - if it can be undone."

    Choosing President-elect Obama as the Gun Salesman of the Year is a lot like a good-news, bad-news joke.His election has driven gun sales into the stratosphere, but his opposition to guns and gun ownership may be the biggest threat the industry has ever faced. If he puts scoring political points with anti-gun groups ahead of economic realities, he will be deliberately putting thousands of people out of work. I don't see that as an economic stimulus plan with much of a future."

    "Today, the facts are indisputable. Barack Obama has spurred gun sales in a time when the entire economy seems to be tanking. If that doesn't make him the gun salesman of the year - if not the decade - I don't know what would.

    - Jim Shepherd << author of the piece



  11. #11
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    and I thought the cops took all of Plexico's guns?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  12. #12

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Great piece Rick - timely and important.

    The answer to an emailer’s question: 31 = The number of rounds I carry on my person when I’m off duty; and that's not enough.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín


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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Mr. Connell,

    Does this look familar? Paid only 500. for it. Tough economics.

    rick

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  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Mr Connell


    "Ted would probably change his mind with some practical gunfighting training"

    ************************************************** ***
    Thats all I can say about that. Purposely not written.

    I said nothing about police or what one could be considered active duty/responsible humans. I was talking about the useless as* that blew away a toilet. He should not be allowed to own a gun. One mistake with a firearm from a man that more than likely did not need to be carrying one around anyway for the most part no matter what his business in life is is one to many. If he can blow away a toilet by accident can you only imagine what he could do on purpose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I for one am for guns in the right hands. He just deemed himself as a man with a gun that had no business having one. I repeat. I think you would think quite different in this matter if it were one of your loved ones that was blown away instead of the toilet. Shoot (no pun intended) I think you would think a little different if you lost a lung over the incident.

    One more point. You, for one, as an active duty cop should stop sounding like you are making excuses for people making mistakes with guns. There is no excuse. Unless he is a cop (FBI, CIA, Marshal, Secret service etc)there is no reason to have a round in the chamber. He already proved he not responsible enough to be carrying a hand gun around. My whole point on this and other post was for idiots such as him and no one else.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 01-16-2009 at 09:44 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Sweet! But - if I came home with one more toy without my wife’s permission, she may use it … on me.

    Mind you, she did buy me a Benchmade switchblade for Christmas!

    OK Ted - I respect your opinion. Like I said, I understand your point.

    Caoimh&#237;n

    Last edited by Caoimhín P. Connell; 01-16-2009 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Added comment to Ted.

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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Rick,

    Nah, that's for learners, you got to get one of these ...

    They are for sale.

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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rick,

    Nah, that's for learners, you got to get one of these ...

    They are for sale.
    Jerry, is 'that' the main panel? (Love the Sub)


  18. #18
    Rick Fifield's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Man drops gun in public toilet and goes off half cocked.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry, is 'that' the main panel? (Love the Sub)
    Nope, ... ... that's the "sub panel" everyone keep talking about.

    Just thought I would put that up there so if there was ever a hesitation about whether a panel was "a panel" or a "sub panel" all they would have to do is look up there ... if they are in on of those and see a panel which looks like that - yep, it's a "sub panel" alrighty, ... otherwise ... nope, it is not a "sub panel".



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Hello Jerry –

    Ya, well, tanks may be O.K. for you city fellers, but here in the mountains we need something a little more compact – something you can take fishing - you know, for squirrels and the like:



    And then when you old like me, and our eyes begin to fail, those squirrels can move pretty fast, and, you need something that puts out a lot of lead in a short amount of time – like 900 rounds per minute. Also known as the “spray and pray” method of hunting.




    Rick Fifield:

    Man drops gun in public toilet and goes off half cocked.

    That’s funny!

    Cheers!
    Caoimh&#237;n P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others. No squirrels were hurt in the making of this post… they didn’t feel a thing.)

    AMDG

    Last edited by Caoimhín P. Connell; 01-16-2009 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Cuz I'm an idiot and can't spell

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    Angry Re: Toilet Fatality

    Bragging about making a 75 year old man cry.... pathetic.. One wonders at what level of moronhood it takes for anyone to hunt animals with an automatic rifle or machine gun? “Spray and Pray”…. Doubly pathetic! Oh ya, I forgot.... a badge.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  22. #22

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Good morning, Jerry!

    Bragging? That’s curious – Last I heard, he’s recommending me for a commendation. Ah well, as my wife says: “How you see anything is how you see everything.” You see what you want to see, Jerry.

    Shucks - maybe, you’re just upset because the whole Global Warming Theory thing is falling apart. Probably caused by a bunch of cops as well, eh?

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín


  23. #23
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    I have a friend that has a 50 cal. Gun. that sucker is loud. Hes a very good shout with it... I think it would be a kick in the pants to shot a toilet with that thing. Be like dust in the wind...

    Best

    Ron


  24. #24

    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    We almost had to call Jerry Peck and borrow his tank thingy for this one. This big feller took out three dogs, a baby seal and cute little bunny with floppy ears before we managed to corner it and save the day (that's me on the right...)



    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    I have no problem with lawful folks owning, collecting, shooting and hunting with guns of all types (yes, all types). BUT, I think it's a right that should be revoked quickly, very quickly, if/when you start to show signs of mental instability and/or carelessness or disregard for the law as we have defined it.

    I applaud the police who carry guns and protect us and the people who teach others how to carry and use guns in a safe manner.

    Unfortunately, I believe there are many gun owners out there that never received the proper training/education or don't practice or maintain their skills enough to be justified in carrying around a loaded weapon of any kind. Too many feel that owning a gun is their god given right and don't feel that they need to contribute anything to the relationship.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Toilet Fatality

    Ted,
    You posted "Unless he is a cop (FBI, CIA, Marshal, Secret service etc)there is no reason to have a round in the chamber. "
    In every CCW class I have ever taken, every instructor has agreed that not having a chambered round could cost you your life. Street gun battles are usually over in 2.5 seconds. I NEVER carry a weapon without a round chambered and ready to just pull the trigger. Hopefully you live in a safe and secure place in Ft Worth, but here in Arizona where nuts walk around with all sorts of weapons, time is of the essence. I want to be and shall be the one that goes home to my family if confronted by one of these idiots.
    I agree that there are many folks that should not have weapons but unfortunately that is out of my control.

    Jeff


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