Thread: CPVC as a supply?

It appears that the supply line from the meter is CPVC. I've never seen that before and it seems a lot on the cheap side... just wondering if there is any reason they can't use it?

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Originally Posted by Reis Pearson

It appears that the supply line from the meter is CPVC.

Looks like PVC.

Not a problem when used for the water service pipe OUTSIDE the structure.

That think looks too far down to reach, is it?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Looks like PVC.

Not a problem when used for the water service pipe OUTSIDE the structure.

That think looks too far down to reach, is it?

Does a PVC water main that runs into a crawl space and then transitions into something else qualify as 'outside' the structure? Or, is it literally outside the foundation and perimeter walls?

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Does a PVC water main that runs into a crawl space and then transitions into something else qualify as 'outside' the structure? Or, is it literally outside the foundation and perimeter walls?

This is a can-o-worms and I'm not sure you will find agreement on this!

There was some new language added to the IRC in 2006. I'll just post the relevant bit:

P2904.4 Water Service Pipe. ... Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure.

Let's look at the valve:

P2903.9.1 Service Valve. Each dwelling unit shall be provided with an accessible main shutoff valve near the entrance of the water service. ...

IRC seems to have gotten away, somewhat, from "outside" and "inside" but the "at" and the "near" are still a bit confusing leaving some room for different interpretations. Around here, on newer homes, it is normal to have the service piping running through the crawl to a main shut-off in the under stairs closet or the back wall of the garage. Frankly, I'm not sure if there is a totally clear definition of where the "service" ends and the "distribution" begins. BUT...we simply don't seem to use PVC for service around here, so it's never been an issue...although I've had to occasionally call PVC where it is, clearly, distribution piping.

From a purely functional point of view, I don't see the harm in having PVC for the cold water service within a crawl or the footprint, up to the main shut-off, as long as it's insulated and adequately protected from damage (UV, physical, etc). Still, it wouldn't be my choice of material.

And, of course, you may be on a different code (UPC) or have local rules. Ultimately, I would probably give the local AHJ a call if it did come up.

FYI.. This is NC code I had to transcribe, as I don't have it on disk like others, to convience builder the access could not be screwed and painted shut. That's why the under line....

2006 North Carolina Plumbing Code

606.1 Location of full-open valves. Full-open valves shall be installed in the following locations.

2. A full-open valve shall be located either outside the building within 5 feet (1524 mm) of the foundation wall in a readily accessible valve box, in the crawl space within 3 feet (914 mm) of the crawl space access door or within the building in a location where it may be accessed without the use of a ladder or a tool.


Here in Mecklenburg Co. the PVC can not enter the foot print of the building. CPVC can.

Matt,

It's got to terminate outside of the structure (PVC). This is according to a plumber friend. Here is a link to the 2008 OPSC (OR plumbing specialty code)-- based on the UPC ......
The 2008 Oregon Plumbing Specialty Code (OPSC) is based on the following:

• The 2006 Uniform Plumbing Code, Chapters 2 through 11, 13, 14, 15 and 16; and Appendices A, B, D, E, J, and I.

• The 2002 edition of NFPA 99C, Medical Gas and Vacuum Systems Standard.

• Oregon amendments.

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Also, here is a link to the rest of OR codes
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Just an FYI for OR inspector's. Electric water heaters are allowed to be installed at floor level as is written directly into the code. (508.14)(http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/.../Chapter_5.pdf

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Just an FYI for OR inspector's. Electric water heaters are allowed to be installed at floor level as is written directly into the code. (508.14)(http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/.../Chapter_5.pdf

Thanks Brandon... did that just change in 08?

Matt,

I believe that the bars adjacent to that code reference indicate a technical change (based on memory). I don't have a copy of the old code to see what it said.

I can't seem to find where it spells out where the PVC service pipe needs to end-- if you find it, will you let me know?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That think looks too far down to reach, is it?

It's reachable if you don't mind your face in the dirt!

Thanks everyone... the line does terminate just outside the foundation wall and tranistions from the valve to copper as it enters.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Matt,
I can't seem to find where it spells out where the PVC service pipe needs to end-- if you find it, will you let me know?

It's in the tables of allowed uses of pipe. Like "under a foundation" PVC is not one of the "allowed" pipes where CPVC, PEX, copper etc are allowed.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Does a PVC water main that runs into a crawl space and then transitions into something else qualify as 'outside' the structure? Or, is it literally outside the foundation and perimeter walls?

Matt,

As others have answered, it needs to be changed from PVC to CPVC (or other approved material) before it crosses under the footing or through the foundation wall.

Re: CPVC as a supply?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore
Matt,
I can't seem to find where it spells out where the PVC service pipe needs to end-- if you find it, will you let me know?


It's in the tables of allowed uses of pipe. Like "under a foundation" PVC is not one of the "allowed" pipes where CPVC, PEX, copper etc are allowed.

Wayne,

The only reference I am seeing to "foundation" is under 609.3.2.

I am assuming that the table you are referring to is table 6-4
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/.../Chapter_6.pdf

I saw that table, but it does not seem to say where the supply pipe and fittings must terminate.

I'm pretty sure I am missing something---- can you point me toward the correct table or location.

Brandon, I think Wayne is referring to IRC P2904.5.1, but that only addresses "inaccessible water distribution piping under slabs" and not service piping under or through perimiter foundations.

If you are looking for a quotable "code" that states simply, clearly and unequivocally where service ends and distribution starts, good luck. UPC Definitions don't help much as they don't have one for the service pipe. IRC is a bit clearer in the Definitions...

Water Service Pipe. The outside pipe from the water main or other source of potable water supply to the water-distribution system inside the building, terminating at the service valve.

OK, so according to the IRC the service pipe ends at the service valve (main shut-off). That makes sense. The rest is a bit of a head scratcher. On one hand it says "outside pipe" but, on the other, it says it terminates at the service valve (which we know can be inside).

Thanks Richard.

Time to call some plumbers....

I did find this on- line: Residential Guide for Plumbing

They are based on the UPC and actually spell it out:

J. WATER PIPE AND FITTINGS
1. Shall be of brass, copper, cast iron, galvanized malleable iron, galvanized steel or other approved pipe. All malleable iron water fittings will be galvanized.
2. PE or PVC pipe can be used for water distribution outside a building. (Exception - not to be run under slabs, sidewalks, porches or beneath buildings, etc.)
3. Galvanized pipe will not be buried.

a. Must be 6 inches above ground level.
b. Buried galvanized pipe will be approved, factory coated pipe and cut and threaded portions will be wrapped with factory tape.

LOL...I'm not so sure that helps.

A: It's only for one county in Colorado.
B: This line...2. PE or PVC pipe can be used for water distribution outside a building. (Exception - not to be run under slabs, sidewalks, porches or beneath buildings, etc.) (My bold) That sounds more like the feed to an irrigation system rather than the service piping.

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

OK, so according to the IRC the service pipe ends at the service valve (main shut-off). That makes sense. The rest is a bit of a head scratcher. On one hand it says "outside pipe" but, on the other, it says it terminates at the service valve (which we know can be inside).

Richard,

That's not the conundrum it first appears to be.

Simply put:

- The water service pipe terminates at the shut off, which is "allowed to be" inside the structure.

- PVC is "allowed to be" used for the water service pipe.

- PVC is "allowed to be" used outside the structure but "NOT allowed to be" used inside the structure.

- PVC is "NOT allowed to be" used "all the way" to the shut off valve if the shut off valve is inside the structure.

That is no different that "allowing" PEX to be used throughout the house water distribution system, but "NOT allowing" PEX to be used within 6" of the draft hood, which then requires a short piece of pipe of such material, such as copper, which "is allowed to be" used within 6" of the draft hood.

- PVC is "NOT allowed to be" used "all the way" to the shut off valve if the shut off valve is inside the structure.

Hey Jerry, how're you doing?

I almost hate to do this, but I'm bored, it's been slow here and I'm babysitting my dog (knee surgery). Where does it actually say that? I keep going through the UPC and IRC and I can't find anything that isn't fairly wide open to interpretation.

So, I try to figure out the intent. That, it would seem, is to keep PVC being used for distribution due to it not being heat stable. I can see not wanting it for any distribution as it would be too easy to mix up hot and cold, transfer heat at fixtures, ducts, etc. I'll repeat, I don't see the harm in it up to the service valve, outside or in, but I'm really not on a mission to prove that. Whatever the AHJ says would be just fine with me.

Richard,

It says it in the code.

Read the allowable uses for PVC and where it can be used.

*ALL* requirements must be met, and if one requirement is more stringent that another, the most restrictive shall apply.

That means you can use PVC for the water service, all the way to the valve ... unless ... the valve is inside the structure, because PVC is only allowed outside the structure. That means that, *IF* you want the valve inside the structure, you either need to use something other than PVC all the way, or, use PVC up to the structure, then change over to another material which is approved for use inside the structure.

It's as simple as saying you are allowed to use #14 AWG copper for circuits in a house, and you can use a 20 amp breaker if you want too. Of course, if you want to use a 20 amp breaker, you will not be able to use the #14 AWG for that circuit. Or, you could locate the shut off valve outside the house (i.e., use a 15 amp breaker) and all is cool with using the PVC (i.e., using the #14 AWG).

Same thing. The code gives you some choices, you make one choice and abide by the requirements governing what is used in your choice. Don't like the restrictions your choice places on you? You are free to make another choice, you can use #12 AWG instead of the #14 AWG you were going to use.

Heck, the code will allow you to use CPVC all the way to the valve and locate the valve outside the structure (i.e., you could use #12 AWG and install a 15 amp breaker) - your choice, just abide by the requirements cover your choice.

It really is that simple.

LOL...I'm not so sure that helps.

A: It's only for one county in Colorado.
B: This line...2. PE or PVC pipe can be used for water distribution outside a building. (Exception - not to be run under slabs, sidewalks, porches or beneath buildings, etc.) (My bold) That sounds more like the feed to an irrigation system rather than the service piping.

Shoot, I posted that link because I liked the way they spelled it out. I didn't even catch the "distribution" part. I am pretty sure their intent was for it to be written as supply/ distribution

It says it in the code.

Read the allowable uses for PVC and where it can be used.

I have, and all the tables state that PVC is allowable for Service piping. They don't mention inside or out.

*ALL* requirements must be met, and if one requirement is more stringent that another, the most restrictive shall apply.

No problem but, again, the most stringent restriction I can find is that it is not allowed for distribution piping.

That means you can use PVC for the water service, all the way to the valve ... unless ... the valve is inside the structure, because PVC is only allowed outside the structure.

I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to be a pain, but where exactly is that stated in the codes? I've looked, looked again and again. IRC, UPC, even the 2000 IPC. Can't find it.

The closest thing I can find is actually in that older IPC which states "Plastic water service piping shall terminate within 5 feet inside the point of entry into a building."

BTW...didn't we have this same dance a few years ago?

FYI... I ran into a plumber friend today and ask him a few Q. about Schedule 40 CPVC. Some areas North of San Francisco the soil has some kind of an acidic effect of copper pipes. The soil will eat up copper in less then a year. so some of the city AHJ Has in code the areas that require the CPVC plastic Over copper.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

I have, and all the tables state that PVC is allowable for Service piping. They don't mention inside or out.

From the 2008 IRC. (underlining is mine)

- P2904.4 Water service pipe.

Water service pipe shall conform to NSF 61 and shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table P2904.4. Water service pipe or tubing, installed underground and outside of the structure, shall have a minimum working pressure rating of 160 pounds per square inch at 73°F (1103 kPa at 23°C). Where the water pressure exceeds 160 pounds per square inch (1103 kPa), piping material shall have a rated working pressure equal to or greater than the highest available pressure. Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure. Ductile iron water service piping shall be cement mortar lined in accordance with AWWA C104.

Table P2904.4 Water Service Pipe - Includes PVC.

Table P2904.5 Water Distribution Pipe - *DOES NOT* Include PVC.

"Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure"

Yes, we did go through this a while ago, and I can't believe you've forgotten it all.

You follow the above?

PVC *IS NOT* approved for "water distribution" pipe.

Pipe which *IS NOT* approved for "water distribution" must terminate "at the entrance to" the structure ... not "inside the" structure, "at the entrance to" the structure.

Not sure what you could not follow in it LAST TIME, not sure why you forgot it, and not sure what you cannot follow in it THIS TIME either???

You make as lousy of a dance partner as I do, so I don't know why you keep choosing to dance with me??

He likes to look into your eyes

Best

Ron

You make as lousy of a dance partner as I do, so I don't know why you keep choosing to dance with me??

Because you let me lead you big goof! Once last twirl and I'm done.

Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure.
"Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure"

Nope. Not convinced. I might sound like President Clinton but it depends on how you define "at". How many valves are actually located AT the entrance if you take that to literally mean the stem wall. They're just outside or just inside, not hard up against the foundation. So why not just say "shall terminate before entering the structure"?

My feet hurt and I'm going to rest. Save me a spot on your dance card for...oh...say 2013.

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

Nope. Not convinced. I might sound like President Clinton but it depends on how you define "at".

Okay, William Jefferson, define "at the entrance to" the structure - see drawing.

Originally Posted by Richard Moore

So why not just say "shall terminate before entering the structure"?

It does.

Well,

I can't dance, but I'm with Richard on this one. Ya know, people would understand building code better, if it was written more clearly.

Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure.

This should say: before the entrance, at least if they wanted the PVC outside the footing.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

I can't dance, but I'm with Richard on this one.

So ... which letter would you chose?

I'll ask the question another way: I hand you a balloon which is already blown up, there is a door drawn on it with 'Entrance' written above it.

Now I hand you a pin and ask you to place the pin "at the entrance to" the balloon.

Did the balloon pop or are you still holding the blown up balloon with the pin at the door with 'Entrance" above it?

I just do not see what is so difficult about that wording.

Some wording, yes, I would and do agree that it could be clearer, but here, it says "at", not 'in' or 'through', but "at". Then it says "the entrance to", not 'inside the entrance'.

I'll ask the question another way: I hand you a balloon which is already blown up, there is a door drawn on it with 'Entrance' written above it.

Now I hand you a pin and ask you to place the pin "at the entrance to" the balloon.

I would say "at the entrance" would be dead center in the rubber... At the entrance to a door would be on the threshold (middle of wall plane). Otherwise, you are technically before or near the entrance

Some wording, yes, I would and do agree that it could be clearer, but here, it says "at", not 'in' or 'through', but "at". Then it says "the entrance to", not 'inside the entrance'.

I'm not working off of the IRC in my state. Can you show me where it is clear in my code posted... I gotta go to work, so I can't do any research right now.

Jerry,
I am guessing the code commentary does not clear this one up. If that is the case, it is up for interpretation. I still haven't called my plumber buddy to get a definitive answer as to why Oregon does not allow it to run into the crawlspace. We are debating just to debate. I already know it is not allowed in OR, but why???

Let me read your post again later. Sometimes, I get a different interpretation each time I read it.......

Jerry,

I choose "B" in your drawing (obviously from my last post). Since that is the case, the pipe will have to terminate outside the structure so a connection can be made. I don't know many plumbers who want to connect fittings under a footing.....

Or, is there something saying that fittings can not be placed directly beneath a footing???

Why B)? Why (as you said in your other post) in the middle of the plane?

"The structure" begins at the outside wall of the foundation wall.

When measuring a structure for any number of reasons, you measure the outside perimeter, not the center of the foundation wall.

What you are saying, then, is that "the structure" does not need the outside half of the foundation wall? Then why build it?

When you have a boat, and that boat "structure" has a hull, which keeps water out from the outside surface of that "structure", the hull is not damaged until something passed half way through it?

I just do not understand the difficulty in grasping "at" "the entrance to".

Here is another example: The old fort in St. Augustine, Florida is made from large stones (Coquina) cut from the ground, the wall are very thick (14 feet at their base and 9 feet at the top).

If I were to ask you to put your finger on the entrance to the structure anyplace around those walls, you would drill half-way in? What, then, did you just drill through, if not "the structure"? The point at which the drill "entered" "the structure" would be at the outside perimeter.

Brandon, sorry for the delay on your response but according to the code you posted here is what I have found. Then the table specifies what is allowed where.

Look in Chapter 2 of the definitions.

Building Supply:The pipe carrying potable water from the water meter or other source of water supply to a building or other point of use or distribution on the lot. Building Supply also shall also mean water service.

Water Distribution Pipe: In a building or premises, a pipe that conveys potable water from the building supply pipe to the plumbing fixtures and other water outlets.

In Table 6-4 under Water Disposition PVC isn't noted as one of the allowed uses "in a building".

So as far as "water" is concerned I would say the building supply ends at the exterior of the foundation, the very outside portion of the foundation wall and the water distribution pipe begins at that point.

Thanks Wayne, and Jerry.