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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Questionable trap

    First, is this trap approved? Second, I was curious about your thoughts on this expansion tank. A rep for the home warranty company said it was inadequate for two fourty gal water heaters and it would have to be replaced for the water heaters to be covered. I am not familiar with expansion tank sizing requirements.

    Thanks
    Mat

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    First, is this trap approved? Second, I was curious about your thoughts on this expansion tank. A rep for the home warranty company said it was inadequate for two fourty gal water heaters and it would have to be replaced for the water heaters to be covered. I am not familiar with expansion tank sizing requirements.

    Thanks
    Mat
    .
    First is NO !
    * might be Approved for something just not any plumbing application.

    Second : Check the Manufactures Instructions for this Expansion Tank.
    *
    the warranty man can not over rule the Manufactures listing for any product.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  3. #3
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Mat is the water heater out of plumb?

    Best

    Ron


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    The trap/drain has to have a smooth interior. Those flexible connectors catch debris on the inside resulting in clogs and odors.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Second, I was curious about your thoughts on this expansion tank. A rep for the home warranty company said it was inadequate for two fourty gal water heaters and it would have to be replaced for the water heaters to be covered. I am not familiar with expansion tank sizing requirements.

    Thanks
    Mat
    I would say it depends. He would have to know the specs of the expansion tank and some other information regarding the operating temps of the water heaters and the static water pressure.
    Here's the spec sheet for one of the more popular manufacturers of this type of tank to give you an idea on what's involved in sizing. http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/MC4090%200...20Brochure.pdf


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    As others have said, the trap is absolutely wrong.

    First, it must be vertical, then is must not have that corrugated section - it must be smooth, then it also looks too deep - as though the installed the back black bend end-for-end - and with a trap too deep you will not get proper flow or scour through the trap, causing it to clog and block up.

    In addition to the comments by others regarding the thermal expansion tank, it should not be mounted from a tee fitting like that. It would be okay to hang from a tee which is facing down, but that installation places all the weight of the tank, and the water which will expand into the tank, hanging by leverage on that tee.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Thanks. Ron the water heater is ok, just the photo. Thanks for the help.

    Mat


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    That tank is not installed properly. It needs to be installed on the cold supply of the water heater after the shut off valve. That is why they where saying each water heater needs their own expansion tank. The picture here gives a good example, except it does not properly support the tank.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Ron, how are you supposed to disconnect that supply line when it is time to switch out the water heater? Did you mention that they should have some sort of union or means to disconnect for service?

    Dylan Whitehead

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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan Whitehead View Post
    Ron, how are you supposed to disconnect that supply line when it is time to switch out the water heater? Did you mention that they should have some sort of union or means to disconnect for service?
    Ah good eye. I did not notice that picture was missing the dielectric union. So yes their should be a union. When I was called to job it was to install a tankless system. I will update that picture to note their should be a union. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Ron

    EDIT Ok here is the updated photo

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    Last edited by Ron Hasil; 03-23-2009 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Ah good eye. I did not notice that picture was missing the dielectric union.

    That looks like a heat trap fitting, and to my knowledge they are all designed as and rated as dielectric fittings, meaning that no other dielectric fitting or union is required.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That looks like a heat trap fitting, and to my knowledge they are all designed as and rated as dielectric fittings, meaning that no other dielectric fitting or union is required.
    The plumbing inspectors do not recognize the dielectric nipples as a proper dielectric fittings. The plumbing inspector will quote Section 890.350 part (b) to you if you try telling him any different.

    Section 890.350 Unions

    Unions may be used in the drainage and venting system when accessibly located above ground. Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement. Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required.

    a) Drainage System. Unions may be used in the trap seal and on the inlet and outlet side of the trap. Unions shall have metal to metal seats except that plastic unions may have plastic to plastic seats.

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Ron,

    Hate to break this to you, but if that section is quoted as the reason to require a dielectric union and not accept a dielectric fitting, everyone is using that section wrong.

    Must be a Chicago/Illinois thing with NM cable/AAV/and now dielectric unions.

    I've highlighted the reason in bold red text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    The plumbing inspectors do not recognize the dielectric nipples as a proper dielectric fittings. The plumbing inspector will quote Section 890.350 part (b) to you if you try telling him any different.

    Section 890.350 Unions

    Unions may be used in the drainage and venting system when accessibly located above ground. Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement. Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required.

    a) Drainage System. Unions may be used in the trap seal and on the inlet and outlet side of the trap. Unions shall have metal to metal seats except that plastic unions may have plastic to plastic seats.

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.
    There is no REQUIREMENT FOR unions, that only states that "unions MAY" be used, and ... when used ... the union shall meet those requirements.



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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There is no REQUIREMENT FOR unions, that only states that "unions MAY" be used, and ... when used ... the union shall meet those requirements.

    You need to read that again Jerry.

    Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.


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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    You need to read that again Jerry.

    Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.
    Thanks Michael Larson, I was going to put the that whole sentence about unions shall be installed on water supply systems., along with the the other part you highlighted. The union does not have to be dielectric if you use a brass threaded union instead as part (b) of the code states.

    The other part I was going to point out to you Jerry is the part where it says Unions between copper pipe/tubingand dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union. Meaning the dielectric nipple is still a dissimilar metal still which will require either a brass fitting, or a dielectric union.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    You need to read that again Jerry.

    Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.
    Michael,

    Yep, I did not to read that again, didn't I.

    Oops! Big Time.

    (Hmm ... can I do a Watson and go back and change my post so as to reflect that I was not wrong?)

    Nope, already admitted I GOT TO LEARN TO READ, didn't I?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    Yep, I did not to read that again, didn't I.

    Oops! Big Time.

    (Hmm ... can I do a Watson and go back and change my post so as to reflect that I was not wrong?)

    Nope, already admitted I GOT TO LEARN TO READ, didn't I?

    We all fail to read things sometimes. I know I do it more often than not.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Thanks Michael Larson, I was going to put the that whole sentence about unions shall be installed on water supply systems., along with the the other part you highlighted. The union does not have to be dielectric if you use a brass threaded union instead as part (b) of the code states.

    Yep, Michael was on that mark with that 2x4 upside my head, however, ...

    The other part I was going to point out to you Jerry is the part where it says Unions between copper pipe/tubingand dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union. Meaning the dielectric nipple is still a dissimilar metal still which will require either a brass fitting, or a dielectric union.
    Ron,

    You are mostly correct but not completely correct as (let's see I can do it better this time ) ...

    b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.

    Which means there is an option to use those INSTEAD OF the metal to metal as that would fulfill the "or be a dielectric type union".

    Okay, now check that and see if I got it right 'this time'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Jerry, happens to me when I read to fast.

    No harm no foul.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    The plastic unions they are talking about are those used for joining plastic pipes. Key words isexcept that plastic to metal unions meaning plastic pipe to metal pipe unions. Like going from cpvc to copper or galvanized pipe, also from well pressure tanks that have plastic fittings from the well system to copper piping.

    Only time I run into plastic water piping up here in the Chicago area is in the suburbs where there are well systems still. The local codes in them towns state after the pressure tank the rest of the home must be piped in copper or galvanized pipe.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    The plastic unions they are talking about are those used for joining plastic pipes. Key words isexcept that plastic to metal unions meaning plastic pipe to metal pipe unions. Like going from cpvc to copper or galvanized pipe, also from well pressure tanks that have plastic fittings from the well system to copper piping.

    Only time I run into plastic water piping up here in the Chicago area is in the suburbs where there are well systems still. The local codes in them towns state after the pressure tank the rest of the home must be piped in copper or galvanized pipe.

    Are you saying it is not allowed to use a plastic union with threaded transitions to metal pipe? Where does it say that?

    Like going copper (pipe) to CPVC (union) to copper (pipe), nothing wrong with that is there?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Questionable trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Are you saying it is not allowed to use a plastic union with threaded transitions to metal pipe? Where does it say that?

    Like going copper (pipe) to CPVC (union) to copper (pipe), nothing wrong with that is there?

    If the municipal code allows for it I guess not. Thing is up in Du Page, Cook, Kane, Will and a few other counties they do not allow CPVC piping in potable water systems. The Illinois code allows for it which is the bare minimum of the code Counties, Townships, and Cities can make their code stricter. For example the Illinois code says the water supply line must be at least 36" deep or deeper to be below the frost line. Cook County revised that to read at least 60" deep or deeper to be below the frost line.


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