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  1. #1
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    Default Why Two Shutoffs?

    I see this a fair amount of times, but not usually in a newer house. Why do they have two gas shut offs at the fireplace? Wouldn't one be enough?

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    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    I've never seen (2) shut-offs myself. Is it possible that one is for LP and another Natural gas. Just a thought.

    rick


  3. #3
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    Cool loglighter?

    If you have a log lighter you would need a shutoff upstream then a metering valve downstream. Are these two valves different mfrs.? The shutoff should be quarter turn while the metering valve would be a stem rising valve, which takes about 21 throws of the wrist.
    HTH,
    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    That is exactly when I see them, on log lighters. Yes, when operating them (which I rarely ever do), one shuts off quickly and the other turns for a lot longer. I never counted up to 21, but it's a while more.

    Why do they want two? The metering one to control the amount of gas, and the other one just for a quicker shut off? Or, is a metering valve not officially allowed as a gas shut off valve?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    Bob,

    Is this some new requirement of having the valve with the quarter turn shut-off? I've never seen this in our area.

    Thanks for all your input.

    Rick


  6. #6
    Nolan Kienitz's Avatar
    Nolan Kienitz Guest

    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    How about three ??

    A house (3-years old) I did last Saturday had two fireplace units. Here is the breakdown for the shutoffs for each F/P. Both units were factory/pre-fab, gas-log kit only.


    1. Shutoff on wall at left side of F/P.
    2. Shutoff below F/P via access panel at bottom of firebox.
    3. On/Off/Pilot control as part of manifold.

    I've seen the above quite often. Usually its only the shutoff under the access panel next to the On/Off/Pilot control.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Kienitz View Post
    How about three ??

    A house (3-years old) I did last Saturday had two fireplace units. Here is the breakdown for the shutoffs for each F/P. Both units were factory/pre-fab, gas-log kit only.

    1. Shutoff on wall at left side of F/P.
    2. Shutoff below F/P via access panel at bottom of firebox.
    3. On/Off/Pilot control as part of manifold.
    I've seen the above quite often. Usually its only the shutoff under the access panel next to the On/Off/Pilot control.
    There are really only two shut off valves for the gas "to" the appliance.

    First there is the "service valve" to shut the gas service (supply) off to that appliance for "servicing" - has nothing to do with "emergency" shutting down. It *is not* intended to be used for a gas log lighter metering valve.

    Second, where applicable, is that gas metering valve Bob described, it is intended to "meter" or "adjust" the flow of gas to the gas log lighter. It *is not* intended to be used for the service shut off valve.

    Any valves on the gas appliance itself do not shut the gas off 'before' the appliance and therefore are simply 'operation' valves.

    Bob, how did I do on that?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    Bob,

    Question for you upon re-reading IRC G2420.5. (question is related to my bold and underlined text)
    - G2420.5 (409.5) Equipment shutoff valve.Each appliance shall be provided with a shutoff valve separate from the appliance. The shutoff valve shall be located in the same room as the appliance, not further than 6 feet (1829 mm) from the appliance, and shall be installed upstream from the union, connector or quick disconnect device it serves. Such shutoff valves shall be provided with access.
    - - Exception: Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in vented fireplaces shall not be prohibited from being installed in an area remote from the appliance where such valves are provided with ready access. Such valves shall be permanently identified and shall serve no other equipment.
    - - G2420.5.1 (409.5.1) Shutoff valve in fireplace. Equipment shutoff valves located in the firebox of a fireplace shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions.

    That does not say "operational valve access", that says "valve access".

    What do you think?

    Added with edit: I went back and read the Commentary and it is referring to "operational access", not "valve access". In my opinion, the code language needs to be re-written to clarify that it means "to provide operational access" to the gas shut off valve.

    Given that so many leak, as you have reported in the past, giving "access to the valve" is not a bad thing to require.


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 03-12-2009 at 07:45 AM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
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    Cool Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    JP, I think we're on the same wavelength (twilight zone?)

    The service shutoff valve needs "access" so the service tech can find it and operate it. The gas piping connections would come under concealed piping where flare fittings, for example, are not allowed. The code refers to ANSI Z21.15 for shutoff valves, and most AHJs now consider that to mean only quarter turn ball valves with a non-displacing valve seat. That means those old ground key brass jobs with the nut and washer should be replaced, too. FYI, these shutoffs must not leak more than 20cc/hr at 30mmHg a 60*F.

    The second downstream valve is as you describe.

    Nolan, I follow you on the first two shutoffs, although only one is required by code. However, are you referring to the gas combination valve control knob as another 'shutoff'? Sure, that's the effect they have but they are not treated that way in the code.

    I've heard of the multiple shutoffs in Texas many times. I think you have some AHJs who cannot read their code books. Heck, the IRC even shows a shutoff in the lower valve compartment of a Heat & Glo 8000 direct vent as being perfectly acceptable since it provides "access". Only when you get more than 6 feet away must it have "ready access", which is what would typically require a key valve in the floor or wall or one located remotely that meets the three criteria: serves only that one appliance, is clearly labeled as such, and has "ready access".

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  10. #10
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Why Two Shutoffs?

    JP, I think we're on the same wavelength (twilight zone?)
    Bob: If you are on JP's, you are definitely in Rod Serling territory.

    I've heard of the multiple shutoffs in Texas many times. I think you have some AHJs who cannot read their code books.
    Bob: That would be ALL AHJs in Texas. Went to the "W" reading school, they did.


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