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  1. #1
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    Default PVC piping in garage

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    The garage is "outside the thermal envelope" so it is outside. Does it freeze in your area?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  3. #3
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    PVC are usually not supply lines but drain lines. PVC is not rated for pressure. PVC lines are usually empty since waste would drain away so freezing should not be a problem.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  4. #4
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    At 4616 ft. altitude and with an average January temperature of 21 it would certainly be wise to insulate exposed piping of any kind in a garage, insulated walls or not.


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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    PVC are usually not supply lines but drain lines. PVC is not rated for pressure.

    Assuming the OP was referring to water lines (he stated "water supply lines"), I have to disagree with that, Bruce. PVC is very much rated for pressure (ASTM F2261) and is used extensively for water or fluid delivery.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    PVC are usually not supply lines but drain lines. PVC is not rated for pressure. PVC lines are usually empty since waste would drain away so freezing should not be a problem.
    Does not matter ... *ALL* plumbing lines outside the thermal envelope and above the freeze line are required to be protected from freezing, either with insulation or thermal heating tape or both - the freeze line is basically I-10 across Florida, into Texas, then up into California.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Actually the code does not say above the freeze line for DWV. The code specifies "above grade". Unless one wants to interpret "or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures" as above the freeze line. But I would think that the code would have stated "above the freeze line" if that was the intent. I guess they were thinking that water wouldn't stay in the pipe long enough to freeze.

    P3001.2 Protection from freezing.
    No portion of the above
    grade DWV system other than vent terminals shall be located
    outside of a building, in attics or crawl spaces, concealed in outside
    walls, or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures
    unless adequate provision is made to protect them from
    freezing by insulation or heat or both, except in localities having
    a winter design temperature above 32F (0C) (ASHRAE 97.5
    percent column, winter, see Chapter 3).


    We had a situation come up on a pvc sewer line just yesterday. It was 2" below grade. The inspector thought that it should be 12", which is our freeze line. We couldn't legally require this by the code. That is the benefit of being a HI rather than a code inspector.




  8. #8
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    Actually the code does not say above the freeze line ...
    Wayne,

    My use of "above the freeze line" goes along with my use of "the freeze line is basically I-10 across Florida, into Texas, then up into California.", which is different than the frost depth. I am referring to the line indicated in (see bold red text in the code section below).

    P3001.2 Protection from freezing.

    No portion of the above
    grade DWV system other than vent terminals shall be located
    outside of a building, in attics or crawl spaces, concealed in outside
    walls, or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures
    unless adequate provision is made to protect them from
    freezing by insulation or heat or both, except in localities having
    a winter design temperature above 32F (0C) (ASHRAE 97.5
    percent column, winter, see Chapter 3).

    When you look that up in Appendix D of the IPC you will see that is approximately along I-10 (Interstate Highway 10) - thus I refer to that as "the freeze line" ... north of that and you are required to protect all piping from freezing, south of that and there is no requirement to protect the piping from freezing - which has lead to many frozen and burst pipes in Gainesville, Florida ... which is well below "the freeze line" yet regularly gets freezing temperatures sufficiently long enough to burst pipes. I lived there for 20 years and repairing burst pipes for clients of my construction company was an on going venture every winter, mostly small work but several winters damaged entire apartment complexes and was repairs on a large scale (drywall ceilings, insulation, the piping, sometimes the drywall on the walls, the paint, the carpets, the furniture, everything got flooded).

    Thus, if your area ever gets freezing temperatures for longer than a couple of hours, *I* always recommended protection from freezing, even though the building department could not enforce it.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  9. #9
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    PVC can be used on cold water supply lines - BUT not PVC drain piping which is used for DWV only - CPVC on hot cold or drain. I live where supply lines in any un-heated room - storage garage or whatever that out side the thermal envlope or with out a heat supply need a heat source or to be brought within the thermal envelope.


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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    PVC can be used on cold water supply lines
    Most codes do not allow PVC to be used for cold water supply lines. Most codes only allow PVC to be used for the water service lines OUTSIDE the house, not inside the house (for pressure water piping).

    - BUT not PVC drain piping which is used for DWV only
    Huh? PVC is required to be Schedule 40, you have lost me - please explain.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Schedule 40 PVC can be used on cold water supply lines


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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    Schedule 40 PVC can be used on cold water supply lines
    Not in most codes.

    Not "within" a building.

    Maybe where you are, but, and as I said in my other post "not in most codes".

    Which code is applicable in your area?

    Instead of making a blanket statement like that, you probably need to specify which code does, because "most codes" do not allow its use inside.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    This is a age old issue in HI What code is in effect at the time of construction, how the LJHA enfored the code and as a service entrance it would be allowed inside and as a sprinkler supply it would be allowed

    the exceptions may be the rule


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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    This is a age old issue in HI What code is in effect at the time of construction, how the LJHA enfored the code and as a service entrance it would be allowed inside and as a sprinkler supply it would be allowed

    the exceptions may be the rule

    No, very few code ever allowed PVC to be used inside. For the water service to the building, yes, but not in the building.

    No reason to accept PVC inside ... unless you know for sure that you are in that weird code area which allowed its use inside.

    Even if in that area it is to your benefit to address it and point it out as PVC is prone to failures (which is why most codes never allowed it inside for supply and distribution). DWV inside? Yes, no problem (unless your area required cast iron - as a few did for many years while resisting to adopt PVC as being allowed).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Peck Listen to your self PVC is prone to faillure But it is allowed to be used as a Service entrance. Tell me why o wise one would the code allow the product as a SE if it is prone to faliure.

    And it can be used to supply a yard sprinkler inside.
    from the SE to the control box.

    Also How much SE can be inside before the code approve interior supply piping must be used.

    For a man who lost 10 Stoppers ( you might need a checkup) before i started in the HI business, I expect a more complte and correct statement.

    Important issue you are correct to point out for others is dont make blanket statements. That is valid, local codes are enforced differently across this nation and differet codes were adopeted at differetn times in the same locality.

    Using the most current code to inspect a home while it should be used as a reference, Many times all one can say is that by todays standards it is not correct. But I would not call that a defect as you have on many post.

    I enjoy posting to both clarfiy my thoughts and to mabe help others.
    NOT to blow my own horn. But to each his own


  16. #16
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    Peck Listen to your self PVC is prone to faillure But it is allowed to be used as a Service entrance. Tell me why o wise one would the code allow the product as a SE if it is prone to faliure.
    Van Houtan,

    Listen to yourself and think about things a bit too.

    Hmmm ... let's ... Oh, yeah, the "water service" pipe TO the building is ... Duh! ... OUTSIDE the friggin' building. You can think of that?

    Jeez.

    Okay, now what is the difference between "water service pipe" where PVC is allowed and "supply and distribution" piping where PVC is not allowed?

    Listen to yourself and think again, Van Houtan, ummmm ... oh, yeah, ... Duh! ... the "water service pipe" is OUTSIDE and the supply and distribution piping is INSIDE.

    Jeez.

    And it can be used to supply a yard sprinkler inside.
    from the SE to the control box.
    Duh, Van Houtan, that is OUTSIDE piping.

    Also How much SE can be inside before the code approve interior supply piping must be used.
    None.

    - WATER-SERVICE PIPE. The outside pipe from the water main or other source of potable water supply to the water-distribution system inside the building, terminating at the service valve.

    - P2904.4 Water service pipe. Water service pipe shall conform to NSF 61 and shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table P2904.4. Water service pipe or tubing, installed underground and outside of the structure, shall have a minimum working pressure rating of 160 pounds per square inch at 73F (1103 kPa at 23C). Where the water pressure exceeds 160 pounds per square inch (1103 kPa), piping material shall have a rated working pressure equal to or greater than the highest available pressure. Water service piping materials not third-party certified for water distribution shall terminate at or before the full open valve located at the entrance to the structure. Ductile iron water service piping shall be cement mortar lined in accordance with AWWA C104.

    If the water service pipe is also rated for water distribution (PVC is not) then the water service pipe may extend "inside the structure".

    For a man who lost 10 Stoppers ( you might need a checkup) before i started in the HI business, I expect a more complte and correct statement.
    No problem for or with me, just got busy and left them behind. Not worth going back to get them. Maybe you would have gone back to get them? Maybe you are perfect and never forget and leave anything behind?

    I'm not perfect, I forget things, I don't know everything. Some others seem to think they do know it all.

    Using the most current code to inspect a home while it should be used as a reference, Many times all one can say is that by todays standards it is not correct. But I would not call that a defect as you have on many post.
    So ... you do not call out missing GFCI protection in bathrooms for 1970 homes?

    Even though it has been duly recognized as being unsafe since 1975?

    NOT to blow my own horn.
    Your posts sure fooled me.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    "Peck Listen to your self PVC is prone to faillure But it is allowed to be used as a Service entrance. Tell me why o wise one would the code allow the product as a SE if it is prone to faliure. "

    Everything is prone to failure. But somethings are less prone than others. In this case PVC is more likely to fail than lets say CPVC. So the better choice is CPVC. Now if PVC fails in the front yard, not a really big deal, however if it fails in the walls, or under the house, then really big deal.


    "Using the most current code to inspect a home while it should be used as a reference, Many times all one can say is that by todays standards it is not correct. But I would not call that a defect as you have on many post. "

    How do you (or do you) report the following?
    a 20 year old roof, 15 year old water heater, 15 year old A/C unit
    They are all still working as intended
    or, ungrounded outlets
    These items may not (yet) be defective, but I think it good to mention them in the report.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Garages in "our" area, if the water pipes are in the garage shared wall with the interior and as long as the pipe is installed on the interior portion of the stud it doesn't need further insulating. If it is more to the garage side of the stud it needs to be pipe wrapped. If it is in the wall outside the thermal envelope it needs insulated.

    If it is drain pipes only the traps need insulated.

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  19. #19
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Peck: Our water service entrance come into the house typicaly in the crawlspace and or the basement. Typicaly we see the main shut off near this SE piping Indoors. Not outdoors as in some climates. This may be 3'' or 10' of pipe and at this point the SE pipe is in the house ahead of before the valve, so 50% correct as you read the code . Going back to the first post, the pipe was in the garage and he did call it a supply which should mean after the SE Main valve and your point is valaid. But i was giving reasons that one may see PVC in the house. If the garage was a tuckunder as on a raised ranch, than when built the valve may have been area garage - basemet. (all one room) But now the valve could be in a seperate room, becuase a wall was built to seperate the garage from the basement 10+ years after the home was built. I would never call this out as a defect. We do not stop PVC SE at the outside of the foundation wall and change piping.
    You also did not address the fact that it could be a lawn sprinkler feeder and that would be approved as a PVC pipe yes this is not a potable water supply but a sprinkler supply. This is not a un- common conditon in the mid-west and a blanket statement that is is a defect would be unreasanoable in my opinion. So conditions may exist here were it freezes and we have basments that PVC is in the building and accepted by the AHJ

    As to No GFCI in any house that does not have GFCIs where i would expect them today I would Say:
    "FYI
    - Although not always seen in pre-owned buildings, current safety standards recommend a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) at electrical outlets in "wet areas" such as: bathrooms, kitchens, garages, wet bars, the exterior, jacuzzi tubs, unfinished basements, etc. At least one or more of these locations lack GFCI protection. An electrician could install them at applicable areas as a safety improvement."

    I inspect in at least 32 different areas, cities, counties etc. That now have codes but did not in the past and i inspect in severals areas that still have no codes. To try to find out what code (if any) was addopted at what time and what is currently in efffect in each area is a matrix that i am not intrested in knowing. My statemet above tells my client my about the issue and a opinion for repairs of upgrades. This is true for many changes in construstion.




  20. #20
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    This may be 3'' or 10' of pipe and at this point the SE pipe is in the house ahead of before the valve, so 50% correct as you read the code .
    Houtan,

    'Tis not as *I* read the code, 'tis as THE CODE is worded.

    *YOU* may not like, or agree with, THE CODE WORDING, nonetheless, though, the CODE WORDING is there for all to read.

    The water service pipe IS ALLOWED INSIDE the structure *IF* ... this is the key part ... *IF* the service piping IS ALSO APPROVED FOR USE AS DISTRIBUTION piping in addition to be approved for use as water service piping, AND, IF NOT, then the water service piping WHICH IS NOT ALSO APPROVED FOR USE AS DISTRIBUTION piping is required to end outside the structure.

    It really is that plain and simple.

    Now, if one wants to use a water service piping *which is not also approved for use as distribution piping*, then they would have two code acceptable options: 1) transition to an approved distribution piping outside the structure at or before the entrance to the structure, run the approved distribution piping inside the structure to the shut off valve, then continue on from there with the distribution piping; 2) install the shut off valve outside the structure and terminate the water service only approved piping to the shut off valve outside the structure.

    Yes, it really is that plain and simple.

    Not sure what you do not understand about that, but anyone reading at an 8th grade or higher, possibly even lower, level should be able to understand that code section - it is written that simply.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Peck
    A JHA interpertation of the code on Millions of homes in the mid-west is as i described with PVC sprinkler supply piping and/or short amount of SE piping within the basement or crawlspace of the home.

    This is not a "weird" code area.

    I am just trying to give information to a fellow inspector that is real a usable in large part o the US


  22. #22
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    A JHA interpertation of the code on Millions of homes in the mid-west is as i described with PVC sprinkler supply piping and/or short amount of SE piping within the basement or crawlspace of the home.

    Houtan,

    And I keep asking for you to provide that code.

    Also, I suspect you mean AHJ.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  23. #23
    Cobra Cook's Avatar
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    Smile Re: PVC piping in garage

    There is two types of pvc piping, one is only for drain waste vent piping the other is for pressure which is stamped on the sides of each, up to 600psi. This is usually 1/2, 3/4 and up, the larger the pipe the less pressure. This type can be used for water supply lines but not hot water. In a garage it should be insulated conditioned or not.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: PVC piping in garage

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    PVC are usually not supply lines but drain lines. PVC is not rated for pressure. PVC lines are usually empty since waste would drain away so freezing should not be a problem.
    When you are above the "freeze line", which is basically I-10 across Florida to Texas and up to California, *ALL* plumbing lines outside the thermal envelope are required to be protected from freezing, either by heat tape, insulation, or both.

    That includes DWV lines.

    That is not always enforced, but it is in the IRC. There were, as I recall, a couple of states which amended that section of the IRC, but that would only apply to those states, leaving the actual IRC intact.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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