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  1. #1
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    Default How many is too many

    Is there a limit to the number of 90 degree bends allowed in a TPR discharge pipe (in this case 5).

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    Default Re: How many is too many

    I don't have the IRC with me, but I think it is 4.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    4 - started writing that up around 1990 as they were all 5, 6, 7 or more. That was back when they were run directly outside.

    Says it on the tag on the T&P valve, also in the information from Watts with the valve (which is also on the tag).

    The code does not address that.

    However, if there are even 4 elbow it likely does not meet the current requirements to terminate in the same room or space as the water heater is located in.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Jerry, where does it say that it has to terminate in the same room or space as the water heater? My 03 IRC say "shall be piped full size separately to the floor, to the outside of the building, or an indirect waste receptor located in the building."


  5. #5
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    However, if there are even 4 elbow it likely does not meet the current requirements
    Quote Originally Posted by imported_John Smith View Post
    Jerry, where does it say that it has to terminate in the same room or space as the water heater? My 03 IRC say

    There it is: your 2003 is not "current".

    From the 2006 IRC.
    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
    - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    - - 8. Not be trapped.
    - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
    - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
    - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
    - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    He has drip legs on the water heater and the furnace. How about that

    Best

    Ron


  7. #7
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    He has drip legs on the water heater and the furnace.

    Sediment trap.

    And properly configured too!

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    2006 IRC


    G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap.
    Where a sediment trap is not
    incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment
    trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff
    valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The
    sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in
    the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device

    approved as an effective sediment trap.

    Question
    Why downstream?
    I don't think I've seen them much different that as shown.
    Those may not be as close as they could be but I think they look close enough.



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  9. #9
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve

    Question
    Why downstream?
    The sediment trap is installed downstream of the equipment shut off valve to allow the equipment shut off valve to shut the gas off to the equipment, remove the cap on the end of the sediment trap to empty the trap, re-install the cap, then turn the gas back on - checking for leaks at the removed and replaced cap.


    Otherwise, if the trap is installed upstream of the valve, the entire gas system would need to be shut off to empty the sediment trap.


    as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical.

    Those may not be as close as they could be but I think they look close enough.



    Those could be considered to be as close as "practical", although not as close as "possible" (which is not required), the intent being to allow for debris in as much of the gas line as practical to become trapped in the sediment trap, and to provide for as little gas line as practical after the trap.


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Thank you for your answer Jerry

    I don't recall EVER seeing the sediment installed downstream. Most times there is a flex line connected to the shutoff. In the photo it shows, sediment trap, shutoff, then equipment. This is how I,ve always seen it.
    I just never thought of it as being wrong before.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    In the photo it shows, sediment trap, shutoff, then equipment.
    Rick,

    The photo shows shut off valve, sediment trap, then the equipment (for the water heater anyway).

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    Default Re: How many is too many

    How do I post a photo??????????????

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Forgot the annotated photo.

    Rick,

    Down below the message area, down below the 'Submit' and 'Preview Post' buttons, is the 'Upload Photos' button.

    A window will open and you upload your photo(s) there, remember to click the 'Upload' button after selecting your photos. If you don't do this, your photos will not be "uploaded".

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Jerry
    Looks like you anticipated my next question.

    Now for the photo

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Ah, but the area where I work hasnt adopted the 2006 code yet.

    Is this in the International Plumbing Code?

    The way I read it though it is still allowed to discharge to the outside. Does this implies that it has to drain into a pan and then the pan discharges to the outside?

    It seems like the intent is that if it drains to a plumbing system it has to go through an air gap in the same room as the water heater. It looks like it is acceptable for it to drain to the outside (as long as its not in an area subject to freezing).


  16. #16
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_John Smith View Post
    Ah, but the area where I work hasnt adopted the 2006 code yet.

    Is this in the International Plumbing Code?
    Yes. Same wording in the 2006 IPC.

    The way I read it though it is still allowed to discharge to the outside. Does this implies that it has to drain into a pan and then the pan discharges to the outside?
    Sort of, but not exactly.

    It seems like the intent is that if it drains to a plumbing system it has to go through an air gap in the same room as the water heater. It looks like it is acceptable for it to drain to the outside (as long as its not in an area subject to freezing).
    The intent is that it discharge in the same room as the water heater.

    From that point, it may either enter the plumbing system or (in areas not subject to freezing) go outside.

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    I'm still not getting it. It says "The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

    It looks like they are providing options (where they can be applied)

    - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jerry
    Looks like you anticipated my next question.

    Now for the photo
    It looks like the vent on the AC condensate drain is on the wrong side of the trap. Some manufactures have a printing mistake on their installation instructions where they want the vent installed between the drain pan and the trap. Just put your hand over the vent and you will feel conditioned air coming out through the vent wasting money.

    As to the sediment trap, almost every manufacture requires it to be installed just ahead of the controls. This is important because the warranty companies will use this as an excuse not to repair the equipment. Not installed per manufacturer recommendations, warranty is void. I routinely call out missing sediment traps.

    Brad Deal


  19. #19
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_John Smith View Post
    I'm still not getting it. It says "The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:

    It looks like they are providing options (where they can be applied)

    - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    Read it this way:
    From the 2006 IRC.
    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    - - #1. shall Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
    - - AND #2. shall Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - AND #3. shall Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
    - - AND #4. shall Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
    - - AND #5. shall Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    - - AND #6. shall Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    - - AND #7. shall Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    - - AND #8. shall Not be trapped.
    - - AND #9. shall Be installed to flow by gravity.
    - - AND #10. shall Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
    - - AND #11. shall Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    - - AND #12. shall Not have valves or tee fittings.
    - - AND #13. shall Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

    Now to put it all together into one sentence:
    "P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall: 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system; AND 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater; AND 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap; AND 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment; AND 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area; AND 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage; AND 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants; AND 8. Not be trapped; AND 9. Be installed to flow by gravity; AND 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor; AND 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping; AND 12. Not have valves or tee fittings; AND 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1."

    Now let's take the two you are referring to:
    "AND 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater; ... AND 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors."

    That means the discharge from the T&P relief valve SHALL discharge through an air gap in the same room as the water heater AND the discharge from the receptor below the air gap SHALL (is allowed to do any of the following) discharge to the floor OR to an indirect waste receptor into the plumbing DWV lines OR to the outdoors.

    Note that the discharge from the relief valve is into an air gap in the same room as the water heater, next note that the discharge on the other side of the air gap (the water discharging out of the relief line WILL be going through air to SOMETHING) has 3 choices: 1) the floor; 2) into the DWV system; 3) outdoors.

    Yes, while discharging to "the floor" sounds silly, dangerous, can damage stored items, become a hazard to the occupants, or damage the structure, IT IS ALLOWED TO DISCHARGE TO THE FLOOR ... as long as it DOES NOT violate #6 ... which causes problems with discharging to the floor in many cases. That is almost like saying you can spray water in someone's face - as long as you do not spray them in the face.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Thanks for your patience Jerry. Im still trying to visualize it, but just cant seem to comprehend it. If it discharges to the outdoors (#5) and isnt in an area subject to freezing, why cant it just discharge to the outdoors, through a garage wall or such? I see garage installs a lot in my area.


    Maybe I can get some type of education from those Nacho guys or the anointed Imperial Grand Poobah Meister of electricity............



    Now how does one really test a garage door operator ????????????


  21. #21
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_John Smith View Post
    Im still trying to visualize it, but just cant seem to comprehend it. If it discharges to the outdoors (#5) and isnt in an area subject to freezing, why cant it just discharge to the outdoors, through a garage wall or such? I see garage installs a lot in my area.
    Think of it this way:
    1) The relief valve discharges into the discharge pipe.
    2) The discharge pipe discharges ... is required to ... discharge into "air", i.e., an "air gap", which is simply a "gap of air".
    3) The discharging water simply MUST go someplace.
    4) "Someplace" is allowed to be: a) "the floor"; b) "into a DWV through being collected in a "waste receptor"; c) "to the outdoors"
    5) In 4) c) "to the outdoors" could mean several things, including the water - as long as it was approved for outdoor installation - being "outdoors" and the discharge simply discharging "to the outdoors", or it could mean the discharging water is collected by a "waste receptor" and then piped "to the outdoors" - one example of this is when the T&P relief valve discharge pipe discharges through an air gap to the water heater drain pan, which then drains to the outdoors. Not really the best way to go about doing it, but it is done frequently. There are reasons for AHJ not to allow it, and reasons some AHJ do allow it. I believe over time more AHJ will not allow it, but that remains to be seen.

    Does that help any?

    Now how does one really test a garage door operator ????????????
    Define "test" and what you are "testing for".

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Thanks Jerry. I still cant grasp it, but hey its code.

    Just kidding about the garage door operator. I can just imagine the cringes as people think the dreaded testing of the door operator is resurfacing.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    I called the locals about this very thing (Town of Summerville - suburb N of CHS) on new construction built iaw 2006 IRC. They are continuing to allow 4 turns en route to the outside termination (not much freezing here)

    Check with the AHj for the area the new construction is in before you write it up... (another of life's hard lessons learned)

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Requirements 1 through 13 for the discharge pipe regulations are new in the 2006 IRC. The 2003 IRC only has one paragragh on the discharge pipe. I don't know if this was the intent...to require the discharge pipe to terminate in the same room...but it is there! Don't agree with it...but I am and AHJ and we are known to have an opinion all of our own!

    Another item overlooked or should I say allowed but not to code, is the use of a flex pipe on the T&P line. We write those up all of the time. Still haven't got all of the plumbers on board with the sediment trap...yet!

    Last edited by Wayne Carlisle; 10-14-2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason: corrected spelling

  25. #25
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gault View Post
    I called the locals about this very thing (Town of Summerville - suburb N of CHS) on new construction built iaw 2006 IRC. They are continuing to allow 4 turns en route to the outside termination (not much freezing here)

    Check with the AHj for the area the new construction is in before you write it up... (another of life's hard lessons learned)
    Even if the AHJ is "allowing it" ... if your code has not been changed to amend that part, you should still "write it up" as it is still a code violation.

    If your local AHJ wants to officially take the position that it is okay, then they need to be willing to officially make the change. Otherwise YOU could be hung out to dry while THEY are left being able to say "Oh, that, well, umm, we changed our minds on that and no longer allow it." THEN you would look foolish and THAT would be a "another of life's hard lessons learned".

    When in South Florida many of us HIs would write code stuff up which was not being enforced, and when push came to shove, the AHJ would acknowledge that, yes, the HIs are correct, the code does not allow that ... and would usually change their way of doing things and start enforcing what the code said.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    [quote=imported_John Smith;104949]Thanks for your patience Jerry. Im still trying to visualize it, but just cant seem to comprehend it. If it discharges to the outdoors (#5) and isnt in an area subject to freezing, why cant it just discharge to the outdoors, through a garage wall or such? I see garage installs a lot in my area.

    i have always and will continue to allow the drain to go outside the building. the u.p.c. and the calif. plumbing code requires the drain to terminate outside or other approved locations! i think peck wrote the irc section with all the convoluted jargon just so he could bust peoples chops here


  27. #27
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Yes if in an area not subject to freezing it may still drain outside, as LONG AS there is an indirect/airgap between the TPRV discharge pipe and the drain to the outdoors.

    The indirect discharge (air gap) MUST be in the same room as the appliance, no matter where the discharge eventually goes.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Even if the AHJ is "allowing it" ... if your code has not been changed to amend that part, you should still "write it up" as it is still a code violation.

    If your local AHJ wants to officially take the position that it is okay, then they need to be willing to officially make the change. Otherwise YOU could be hung out to dry while THEY are left being able to say "Oh, that, well, umm, we changed our minds on that and no longer allow it." THEN you would look foolish and THAT would be a "another of life's hard lessons learned".

    When in South Florida many of us HIs would write code stuff up which was not being enforced, and when push came to shove, the AHJ would acknowledge that, yes, the HIs are correct, the code does not allow that ... and would usually change their way of doing things and start enforcing what the code said.
    That can get you in trouble citing code violations as an HI in NC.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    That can get you in trouble citing code violations as an HI in NC.

    Except Mike is in SC.

    Referencing code in Kentucky can also get the HI in trouble, not sure how many more states are like that, those two are. Kentucky a few years ago and North Carolina just recently.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Just a question for those out there that may be wondering.

    When does anything becvome a code violation. At the time something is not installed to the ICC standards or national plumbing code etc or JUST if the Local town, city, county or state adopts that code. Why would anything be a code violation if a state has never adopted it.

    Just because there is a "National" plumbing code etc. does that mean it is code in your town even if it was never adopted. When does a code become a code anywhere. Another question would be ...What if your state threw out all codes and made there own code on everything ?

    Just some questions I get hit with from time to time.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Ted,

    When no codes exist, then refer to known nationally recognized codes and standards, adopted or not.

    When codes exist, refer to them.

    Not every state has a statewide code, and not every state has adopted the latest edition of the NEC, nonetheless, those codes are recognized by the insurance industry as nationally accepted standards, as well as being recognized by other major industries and professions.

    Just some thoughts.

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Just a question for those out there that may be wondering.

    When does anything becvome a code violation. At the time something is not installed to the ICC standards or national plumbing code etc or JUST if the Local town, city, county or state adopts that code. Why would anything be a code violation if a state has never adopted it.

    Just because there is a "National" plumbing code etc. does that mean it is code in your town even if it was never adopted. When does a code become a code anywhere. Another question would be ...What if your state threw out all codes and made there own code on everything ?

    Just some questions I get hit with from time to time.
    TM: In the age of the Internet why is it that HIs find it so difficult to ascertain the adopted code in any given municipality? Since 2001 Texas, where you are located, mandates the IRC in every municipality and even in unincorporated areas.

    Move into the 21st Century, will you?


  33. #33
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    TM: In the age of the Internet why is it that HIs find it so difficult to ascertain the adopted code in any given municipality? Since 2001 Texas, where you are located, mandates the IRC in every municipality and even in unincorporated areas.

    Move into the 21st Century, will you?
    Ahhhh

    He said with a smile

    If you read back you will see that those are questions asked to me all the time.

    I liked Jerrys answer better.

    I was just curious on different thoughts. Was not attacking your code certs.

    As far as mandating the IRC.........Huh......I know you know that not all cities inspect for all new codes on every item. Mandate the IRC ... mostly but not all and some things just seem to take years to be completely adopted. So if you say mandated I take it that any new code that comes into writing in the IRC is automatic that it will be inspected for and adopted by every municipality with out question ........... Aaron.....many municipalites are not even inspecting for sediment traps !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How long has that been around ?

    Step into reality He said sarcastically and with a big grin and with a confused befuttled...its not a tumor...look.

    Like I said...I know my answer to when is a code a code...I was just curious on what others may say. If it is not adopted in your area then technically it is not code in your area because no matter what you say and or think or write up it carries no weight because the city you live in that may not write something up is not going to be behind you.

    So...when does a code become a code ????? When it is written in a book or adopted in your area ???


  34. #34
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    Default Re: How many is too many

    Throwing this at you guys!

    The State of Texas current energy code is the 2001 IECC. Our jurisdiction adopted the 2006 energy code, thinking newer is better. Not in this case.

    When adopting codes, jurisdictions can adopt and ammend codes as long as they are not less stringent than the adopted State code. Well in this case the 2001 energy code is more stringent than the 2006. So even though we have adopted the latest and greatest we still had to get builders to design off of the 2001 energy code.


  35. #35
    Brad Deal's Avatar
    Brad Deal Guest

    Default Re: How many is too many

    Water heaters are the most dangerous appliance in the home. They are little more than a derated steam boiler. When they explode they have the same explosive force as a pound of TNT. The worse part is that when they explode anyone in the blast radius is scalded with steam. These explosions are very energenic. Having said that water heaters have the best safety record of all home appliances. The reason is the temperature and pressure relief valve. This safety device must be installed per manufacturer recommendations to insure it is in contact with the hot water. It has a spring in it that will open when it gets to about 160 pounds, it also has a metal link in it that melts at about 210 degrees that will open the valve. Water cannot be allowed to pond inside the discharge pipe because when these things let loose it is VERY energenic and any back pressure will defeat the valve. If there are too many bends in the discharge pipe or the length of the discharge pipe is too long, again the back pressure will defeat the valve. The outlet must be strapped, especially at its termination to prevent the discharge pipe from flappling like a fire hose spraying the occupants with scalding water and breaking off at the valve. And lastly the discharge outlet must be designed so it cannot splash scalding water onto the upper body of the occupants. Any splashing above the ankles is a no no.

    Any leaks in the valve or oulet, any green staining, any moss or insects at the outlet is an automatic call out. No threaded nipples at the termination are allowed to prevent a home owner from installing a cap to stop a leak.

    All this is a judgement call based on the professional judgement of the inspector.

    Remember, all a home inspector can do is offer an opinion as the the installation and make recommendations for further evaluation and repair.

    Brad Deal


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