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  1. #1
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    Default Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    The building is on a crawlspace. The sink and associated plumbing were installed by a non-professional. The waste pipe is not located in the wall but instead is located in the vanity. The waste piping does not have a vent pipe and is instead vented by an air admittance device.

    With the shorter distance from the sink tailpiece to the waste pipe would you call this an 'S' trap?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Looks like.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Not quite. It looks to be a compounded DIY mistake thus creating a hybrid part crown venting violation (with AAV) and part semi S(yphon) trap which is vented. Its a mutant plumbing mess!

    It (the non-sealing "trap") is crown vented, the distance to venting must be more than two pipe diameters from the trap weir that's not the case here. A full S trap would not be vented.

    Not well versed on the AAVs but IIRC the auxiliary or branch vent alternative should still be a distance certain above the flood rim of the fixture. I am confident that they must be accessible - and pinned up against the underside of the vanity sink at the backside and behind this "plumbing" would not be accessible.

    Can't imagine what's going on in the crawl space - based on whats in the photo the fixture branch must be a real mess. How is the toilet dealt with? vented? is there a tub or shower? Forget it, I don't want to know.

    The trap seal to be maintained is the vertical distance between the crown weir and the top of the dip of the trap (as in attached diagram click on it to view large). The no-no distance for venting begins at the crown weir extended up to the top weir diagramed and goes downstream away from the trap for a minimum distance equal to twice the diameter of the pipe.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    How is the toilet dealt with? vented? is there a tub or shower?
    No toilet. No tub. No shower. At least not at this location. This sink is located in a room that the church used as a nursery. The restrooms are only a few steps down the hall.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    P.S. looks like you have a trade size larger AAV fitting than the vent pipe leading to it (no proper seal) and what looks like probable PB (gray) supply lines to the faucet above.


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Copper supply piping. Grey PB from the shutoff valves to the sink faucet.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Not a s-trap or crown vented trap according to the diagrams provided by two other posters. It (the weir) is closer to three pipe diameters away from the vent, which makes it OK. We should'nt look for the negative, before investigating, or putting opinions in a report. I laid out the fittings and the end of the trap adaptor threads are 3" from the vent, then you have the nut, washer, and the trap arm.

    IMHO,

    Tony


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Watson View Post
    Not a s-trap or crown vented trap according to the diagrams provided by two other posters. It (the weir) is closer to three pipe diameters away from the vent, which makes it OK. We should'nt look for the negative, before investigating, or putting opinions in a report. I laid out the fittings and the end of the trap adaptor threads are 3" from the vent, then you have the nut, washer, and the trap arm.

    IMHO,

    Tony
    Doesn't look that way to me scale-wise. See attached (also made other notations).

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I was only answering Bruce's question.

    The AAV looks to be one that will work on 2" or 1 1/2" pipe, that is why you see the gap. What is wrong with the AAV,... it is installed at a 45 degree angle.

    I put the fittings and trap together and used a ruler to measure the distance and it is well within tolerance.

    T.

    A side question, can I use some of your post and illustrations for training purposes?


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Tony, if you are asking me, go ahead. However, I poached them from other people.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Thanks, Gunnar.

    Any thing used will be for training and educational purposes only. Some of them will be posted on a secure website, and I think I remember how to disable right key function so they will not be copied.

    Are there any other posters that will be willing to let me referance there replys and photos?
    I would be very grateful.
    Tony


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove View Post
    With the shorter distance from the sink tailpiece to the waste pipe would you call this an 'S' trap?

    Bruce,

    No, that is not an 'S' trap.

    What that is, besides being an abomination, is a 'improperly installed AAV configuration'.

    Relatively easily correctable, but wrong as configured.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    What is an aav?


  14. #14
    Tony Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    air admittance valve

    It is used as a vent, but only works as a pulling vent not a pushing vent.

    Not good technique, but I guess it has its place.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Watson View Post
    air admittance valve

    It is used as a vent, but only works as a pulling vent not a pushing vent.
    Being as there are few pressurized drainage systems as compared to gravity drainage systems, it works on most drainage systems.

    Not good technique, but I guess it has its place.
    You mean in the same way that anything can fail and therefore nothing is a "good technique"?

    AAVs definitely have their places.

    I would agree if you said they were overused and over applied.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Being as there are few pressurized drainage systems as compared to gravity drainage systems, it works on most drainage systems.



    You mean in the same way that anything can fail and therefore nothing is a "good technique"?

    Yes especially since they fail from time to time, of course an over-industrious squirrel can stop up a standard vent.

    AAVs definitely have their places.

    I would agree if you said they were overused and over applied.
    Yes I agree, sometimes they are used as an easy solution

    Last edited by Tony Watson; 11-15-2009 at 07:13 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Nope

    1st... I am not a HI - just a lic. plumber...
    .
    That being said, the only thing I can see really wrong with this is the use and installation of the AAV - should be level...
    I do not like them installed below flood rims, but they have been approved for that use so are not illegal (in some places anyway).
    The trap is far enough away from the san tee...
    The san tee appears to be a legal 2X1 1/2X1 1/2 fitting (no problems there)
    The supplies, while not preferable, are not illegal AFAIK...


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I am stunned at the extent and time some waste chasing a paper tiger. This is not an S trap, the AAV could be installed more level, and grey poly from the shutoff valves to the fixture is not a hazard, primarily because there are no ring connectors to fail. I now know why some of you take forever to inspect a house and scare the heck out of buyers. You really need to focus on finding what is truly defective or a hazard. Geesh!


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Jim, We need something to do. Gunnar and H.G. where do you get your diagrams from? Thanks.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  20. #20

    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Tony, if you are asking me, go ahead. However, I poached them from other people.
    Gunnar, when you "poach" from many sources, it's called "RESEARCH"

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Slusar View Post
    1st... I am not a HI - just a lic. plumber...
    .
    That being said, the only thing I can see really wrong with this is the use and installation of the AAV - should be level...
    I do not like them installed below flood rims, but they have been approved for that use so are not illegal (in some places anyway).
    The trap is far enough away from the san tee...
    The san tee appears to be a legal 2X1 1/2X1 1/2 fitting (no problems there)
    The supplies, while not preferable, are not illegal AFAIK...
    The previously described Sanitary tee or TY has no hub on the top and being used to reduce to 1-1/4.

    This was what I was referring to "wrong fitting" and the arrow pointing to that joint. The reduction to 1-1/4 also explains the "troubles" with a seal to the AAV (vent reduced to 1-1/4 before AAV).

    This vanity sink is in a public occupancy, and more specifically a nursery care room of a church.

    Whether or not the locale allows a 1-1/4" trap from a health perspective for a nursery care room I cannot say for I did not research the locale. Generally Nurserys are for the care of small children, whether or not this facility serves food or drink (snacks) and/or has children in diapers, etc. changing in the room I do not know but the vanity sink obviously serves a purpose, presumably at a minimum to assure clean hands.

    At first glance I presumed a TY to be 2x1-1/2x1-1/2" and noted that it was sans (without) hub at the top and being used to reduce to 1-1/4 at the top. The lack of hub and use as a reducing means to 1-1/4 was my objection. It remains especially if as you say the san tee is 2x1-1/2x1-1/2. I have to admit I have never seen a "san tee" or a "sanitary tee" which did not have a hub on the top (sans hub on the bottom but not the top). When I scale the distance I come up short approx 28%.

    Please explain how that would be a legal reduction/restriction two trade sizes to aav and using the fitting without a hub as a means to reduce two trade sizes. Thank you in advance.

    Noting PB was not intended as any implication that PB was in and of itself any sort of health or code issue. It is having to do with the reporting of possible issues, PB and various fittings some recalled, or involved in class action suits, has a sorted history of failures.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-13-2009 at 12:10 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Bruce Breedlove,

    IIRC Colorado switched from UPC to IPC several years ago. There are significant differences in those codes regards combination waste & vent systems esp. for branch extentions. An extention of an existing UPC based combo W&V system should have been designed by a master plumber familiar with other than residential for it to be proper for scouring & venting.

    Curious, and have lost track of the info from a few topic posts, was the nursery in the main church building or the quonset hut section?


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Curious, and have lost track of the info from a few topic posts, was the nursery in the main church building or the quonset hut section?
    The vanity is located in the main building. This building was built in 1985 as a Welcome Center for a developer. The building was later donated to the church and moved to its present location circa 2000. I assume the church decided to change the use of the room to a nursery and needed a sink in the room. I don't know the history of how the plumbing was installed but obviously it was not installed by a licensed master plumber.

    The main building is on a crawlspace. The Quonset hut is on a slab.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    BB,

    You'd be in a better position to know, IIRC Colo. went from UPC to IPC in 2005, at that time adopting 2003 IPC. 2000 building move would lead me to believe stub outs from crawl would have/should have been to UPC. That would influence the combo W&D system and at that time existing branch later modified/extended.


  25. #25
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    Thumbs up Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    To Jim, AMEN BROTHER, and no it is not a "S" trap. A simple fill the sink and see how it drains, as a home inspector if it drains ok then what is the problem? HI = functional flow= ok


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    To Jim, AMEN BROTHER, and no it is not a "S" trap. A simple fill the sink and see how it drains, as a home inspector if it drains ok then what is the problem? HI = functional flow= ok

    That's not all a GOOD home inspector should be looking for, and when a GOOD home inspector sees an AAV installed at a 45 degree angle the GOOD home inspector knows that the AAV needs to be within 15 degrees of vertical to be installed correctly and to operate properly and reliably.

    ANY OLD home inspector will go 'Yep, that thar is a functional flow, so it be okay.', but that is NOT A GOOD home inspector.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    To Jim, AMEN BROTHER, and no it is not a "S" trap. A simple fill the sink and see how it drains, as a home inspector if it drains ok then what is the problem? HI = functional flow= ok
    What about this isn't a home do you not get?

    I pitty those who might be so unfortunate to employ you.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Well, struck a nerve again Since most of this page is viewed and posted on by home inspectors I simply stated that the formula for inspecting the plumbing in an establishment on the AHIT form I use and many thousands have used world wide, the form asks if the flow or discharge is satisfactory or not. I have heard so many stupid answers and reasons why the posting from Bruce is scientifically wrong, he simply asked was this an "s" trap, even that simple question has brought out the worms of the inspecting world and all of the idiotrocities that they hold dear to only themselves. This one simple question is a major reason that most real estate agents simply hate to call for a home inspection or simply cater to the ones who turn a blind eye to what an inspection should be. A non evasive not overly technical inspection, I've yet to see any of the home or commercial inspecting forms ask if the AVV was less than 15 degree from horizontal. I have seen all of them ask for supply pressure and waste draining. And, are there any "S" traps installed. It was a simple question but got an abundance of overly technical answers in violation of the SOP of AHIT, HAHI, NACHI and ASHI. To you guys who make your own rules as to what a,, and I am going to say Home Inspection is supposed to be , that is why errors and omissions insurance is so high. For all of you old timers with your antiquated ideas were and are the cause of many states now requires formal training to be certified or simply be able to call yourself a home inspector. I recently did a bank inspection for work in progress and noted that there were no roof top plumbing vents but noticed that all of the vents were of the AVV type. The plumbing code now allows this, while I do not agree and still believe in old fashion roof vents that is the law and code now as I looked at the final inspection and it was checked approved, then my opinion meant nothing


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Apparently another Tony Mount in the making here ... (sorry Tony, but you made yourself a good reference point - if you are even still around).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Well, struck a nerve again


    Yeah, one in which the majority of home inspector understand that SoP are MINIMUM inspection requirements, just like the codes are MINIMUM requirements, standards of performance to which one DOES NOT get up in the morning and proudly exclaim "I think I will meet the SoP today." To the contrary, one should get in the morning and KNOW that they MUST AT LEAST start off at the level of the SoP and, if they have any pride in what they do, they should "do more" for their clients that the MINIMUM required.

    I have heard so many stupid answers and reasons why the posting from Bruce is scientifically wrong, he simply asked was this an "s" trap,


    And that simple question was answered ... right away ... and very simply too.

    It was a simple question but got an abundance of overly technical answers in violation of the SOP of AHIT, HAHI, NACHI and ASHI.
    I must say that it is quite apparent that you HAVE NO IDEA what an SoP is, what it covers, and what it limits.

    Specifically, for your future knowledge, an SoP DOES NOT LIMIT anything, thus the only "violation" would be not meeting the MINIMUM requirements of the SoP.

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  30. #30
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    Wink Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I fully understand what SOP means STANARD OPERATING PROCEDURES. It does not say minimum requirements, They are written to both provide a customer with a good non evasive, non techanical inspection on the property they are about to buy and also the inspector and should be fully explainable to the average person.. It is good busines to have a SOP to consistently provide your customers with what they are paying for. What does your agreement page that you and your customer both have to sign? Or do you fudge that to. Since you claim to be a legal specialist, lets just say xray home inspections, was being sued by a customer for screwing up something on his inspection that was outside of SOP or was not on his inspection agreement or better yet he did not have an agreement and did what ever he felt, who would win? First off probly no one in principle but most likley his customer in court. That is why E&O insurance is so high.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I have yet to have found a san tee which is other than all-hub which has a spigot fitting at the top (H x S x H). The only I have found is a H x FPT x H, is normally in a much larger size, and could only find one producer of one in 1-1/2" and 2" (all dimmensions) and neither was a reducing san tee. If there's a HxSxH 2"x1.5" x 1.5" or HxFPTxH 2"x1.5"x1.5" san tee out there I haven't seen it or found it.

    However, 1-15/16 including hub less 5/16 (which is midline not entrance to vent wall - half space needs to be maintained for comb C&W branch & trap arm for venting) + .75 + 3/16 is still short in effective length of the trap arm and thus makes it crown vented. The thin walled trap at 1-1/4 was also deficient for this use/application (2000-2005). The unsealed attachment to 1-1/4" (free venting) and incorrectly installed AAV is also of issue be it in a home or elsewhere (45 angle and unsealed attachment). Wherever installed the AAV is to be accessible and have access to free air (and pressures). It may not be contained behind a closed unvented solid vanity cabinet door - and not accessible up behind the "plumbing" and pinned up against the back wall and underside of the vanity surface behind the bowl with its orifice up against a surface (restricting or preventing air intake).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-15-2009 at 01:05 PM.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    I fully understand what SOP means STANARD OPERATING PROCEDURES.
    Wrong again.

    SoP means, as applied to home inspections, the various Standards of Practice.

    It does not say minimum requirements,
    They ARE MINIMUM requirements ...

    ... this is from the ASHI SoP: (bold red text is mine)

    Purpose and scope

    2.1 The purpose of these Standards of Practice is to establish a minimum and uniform standard for home inspectors who subscribe to these Standards of Practice. Home Inspections performed to these Standards of Practice are intended to provide the client with objective information regarding the condition of the systems and components of the home as inspected at the time of the home inspection. Redundancy in the description of the requirements, limitations, and exclusions regarding the scope of the home inspection is provided for emphasis only.

    As I said, you apparently did not know and understand what an SoP was - and you have proven my correct.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    I fully understand what SOP means STANARD OPERATING PROCEDURES. It does not say minimum requirements, They are written to both provide a customer with a good non evasive, non techanical inspection on the property they are about to buy and also the inspector and should be fully explainable to the average person.. It is good busines to have a SOP to consistently provide your customers with what they are paying for. What does your agreement page that you and your customer both have to sign? Or do you fudge that to. Since you claim to be a legal specialist, lets just say xray home inspections, was being sued by a customer for screwing up something on his inspection that was outside of SOP or was not on his inspection agreement or better yet he did not have an agreement and did what ever he felt, who would win? First off probly no one in principle but most likley his customer in court. That is why E&O insurance is so high.
    As JP pointed out SOP or SoP is Standard(s) of Practice. Perhaps your failure to know what SOPs are has something to do with why your E&O may be high. Another might be your command (or lack thereof) of the language. SOPs usually address contract language to some degree as well.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I fully concur with EC Jerry and although most folks think it's an impossible physical feat for one to insert both feet into their mouth at the same time the “Cobra” clearly demonstrates it truly can be accomplished.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post

    I simply stated that the formula for inspecting the plumbing in an establishment on the AHIT form I use ,

    .
    Yeow !!
    * Bet it's Copied Too Death as Well.
    .

    then my opinion meant nothing

    .
    Yep Stuff Happens.
    .

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  36. #36
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    Talking Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Good it sounds like i finally hit a bunch of nerves, you can call a fish a cat but it does not make it one but, the cat s--t sure smlls like a dead one. sounds like youan use the same logic. I call it stanard operating procedure because that it how a business is supposed to operate. Profitable and with consistant practices. I take it there are no other inspectors on this site who truly wish to excell on the subject. only old fogies who have nothing better to do than to try to impress their mis-understanding of the way a home inspection should properly carried out! Ps I do not carry E&O Insurance as I don't make mistakes on an inspection, but it is simply a shame because of the old timers who surely made a lot of mistakes in the past who did cause that insurance to go out of control with the way your sop's were handled. Ask any insurance agency who will carry it why are the reasons it is so high.


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Good it sounds like i finally hit a bunch of nerves, you can call a fish a cat but it does not make it one but, the cat s--t sure smlls like a dead one. sounds like youan use the same logic. I call it stanard operating procedure because that it how a business is supposed to operate. Profitable and with consistant practices. I take it there are no other inspectors on this site who truly wish to excell on the subject. only old fogies who have nothing better to do than to try to impress their mis-understanding of the way a home inspection should properly carried out! Ps I do not carry E&O Insurance as I don't make mistakes on an inspection, but it is simply a shame because of the old timers who surely made a lot of mistakes in the past who did cause that insurance to go out of control with the way your sop's were handled. Ask any insurance agency who will carry it why are the reasons it is so high.
    .
    Well You Got Me There.
    * I mean the whole fish & cat thing ( Brilliant) in a Short School Bus kinda way.

    It's hard to Argue with a Highly Trained Professional Business Man.
    * unlike Yourself.
    .



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    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 11-15-2009 at 08:11 PM. Reason: added text fish & cat
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  38. #38
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    I fully concur with EC Jerry and although most folks think it's an impossible physical feat for one to insert both feet into their mouth at the same time the “Cobra” clearly demonstrates it truly can be accomplished.
    It must be that flexible jaw that same feature that allows them to swallow their prey whole!

    Well done WC Jerry.


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I checked out peopleofwalmart.com and had to wonder what some of these people were thinking when they left the house.

    I read some the the posts here and wonder WTF are they thinking. I'm still shaking my head at just a few comments....

    a. Misunderstand what SOP is and then go off on a tangent so far off it must be the new math. (tangent, math, get it??)
    b. Make such an idiotic statement about not making mistakes and e&o insurance. Some States REQUIRE E&O Einstein.

    I seem to remember reading a Robert Heinlein book several decades ago where an animal managed to eat itself completely. I think that must be step 4 after you have stuffed both feet in your mouth. First the left foot, then the right, then the right hand, then the left, then just keep chewing.

    Got to get back to my walmart photos.........good stuff.


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I'd make a joke about 'people' of Henrico County Virginia, but it would be redundant after JF's post.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I enjoy impressing my client by demonstrating that I am good at discovering things that may impact them if they purchase the property.

    My favorite theatrical demonstration involves drainage issues that fail to conform to code. (i.e. acceptable venting)

    I fill the lavatory sink and later, during the "show & tell," demand silence in order to hear the "thunk, thunk, thunk," that accompanies a poorly vented trap.

    I allude to the liabilities of purchasing a property lacking AHJ sign-offs.

    However, I discreetly inform my client that it is all akin to a play accredited to W. Shakespeare (actually Lord DeVere) titled "MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING"

    RAISON D'ETRE-- Show me the scientific proof that anyone has been harmed by sewer gases. A sink must be rapidly drained to compromise its non-conformal trap and furthermore the simple act of brushing ones teeth or washing ones hands will enable any trap. Amen. MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING

    Last edited by Ken Bates; 11-15-2009 at 09:53 PM. Reason: typo

  42. #42
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    Cool Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Ditto, most do not. I thank you for your outstanding comments, on the subject that was I believe about an s trap, and I believe conclusively for the most part in most of the comments the maybe answer is, no it really is not a "S" trap Bruce. My size 14 boots still have a lot left and always carries me well on the way to the bank after giving a happy customer the best inspection they expect to receive. 467 and counting this year so far, part time and most from referrals from past clients. When I finished the AHIT School two years ago I purchased 1000 books. They have long been gone and now I let the computer do the printing. No copies all are new. The


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I was going to reply and correct some misinformation posted by another member here...
    But, it is simply not worth it...


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Somebody help me. I can't understand what Cobra is talking about when he says the vents were all AVV type. Did you mean AAV. An AAV is a Air Admittance Valve and is used to vent the plumbing fixtures, an AVV is an Air Vent Valve installed in trapped high points of hot water line.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Post Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    No, I would not call it an "S-trap". Poor workmanship, but not an "S-trap".

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
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  46. #46
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    Talking Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I can't believe I'm reading a zillion posts telling me that this,(see image) isnt a "S" trap. Of course it is. Take away the AAV and whadda ya got?
    That's right sports fans! If it walks like a "S" trap wearing a funny looking hat's called a AAV and talks like a "S" trap, then dang it! That sucker must be a "S" trap.
    On an other note, I read where some inspectors areafraid to grab a toilet bowl and check it for a ,loose or a b owl that rocks.
    Repair plumbers would get a chuckle outta that. Regards to all, Tom aka Speedball1

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Holy Cow Dung Batman - the BS meter just flew off the wall. The idiot meter was already pegged.

    Wasn't there someone here not long ago that claimed something like 600 per year for 11 years or something? You bethcha Tonto, go get em.


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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    .
    Holy Cow Dung Batman - the BS meter just flew off the wall.
    .
    The idiot meter was already pegged.

    Wasn't there someone here not long ago that claimed something like 600 per year for 11 years or something? You bethcha Tonto, go get em.
    .
    Well Jack,

    He did say Part Time.

    If He applied his Keen Intellect, Command of Efficient Communication and All Them Brand New Computer Printed Check List HI Reports.

    .* The Sky Is The Limit ! ( National Franchise next THE WORLD !!!! )

    Please Choose Option 1 or 2.

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  49. #49
    M. Slusar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Barker View Post
    If it walks like a "S" trap wearing a funny looking hat's called a AAV and talks like a "S" trap, then dang it! That sucker must be a "S" trap.
    OK - I really hope that this was an attempt at humor...
    otherwise....


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    This was fun going from, "Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?", to you and your oppions stink, to OH-NO you and yours do.

    That being said if you capped the top of the 2 x 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 tee would you call this a combination waste-vent application.
    or
    Would an 1 1/4" fixture outlet into an 1 1/2" trap into a 2" drain ever syphon?

    Thanks for all the post up to this point.


  51. #51
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Barker View Post
    I can't believe I'm reading a zillion posts telling me that this,(see image) isnt a "S" trap. Of course it is. Take away the AAV and whadda ya got?
    That's right sports fans! If it walks like a "S" trap wearing a funny looking hat's called a AAV and talks like a "S" trap, then dang it! That sucker must be a "S" trap.

    Thomas,

    Sounds like you need a primer here.

    THAT IS NOT AN 'S' TRAP as shown in the photo.

    Now, if you were to do as you said and take away the VENT up to the AAV, then, yes, it would be an 'S' trap, but ...


    ... then it would not be what is shown in the photo and what was being asked about either, would it?

    Think about what you wrote a bit and you will understand.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  52. #52
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    Talking Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Thanks for the lesson Jerry but I'm too old and set in my ways take a refresher course.,
    If I'm not looking in at a "S" trap vented by a AAV then please put a name on it. I'll even give you a choice. (see image). What's it gonna be. Door#1,2,3 or none of the above? If the arm was longer then 6" I might agree but as it stands sure looks like a S trap vented with a AAV to me.
    I'm shuting down and kicking back but I'll be back for more education.
    I didn't drop in to make waves but you inspectors are more fun then the plumbers site. Cheers and I'm truly enjoying the discussion. Tom

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    Last edited by Thomas Barker; 11-17-2009 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Barker View Post
    If I'm not looking in at a "S" trap vented by a AAV then please put a name on it. I'll even give you a choice. (see image). What's it gonna be. Door#1,2,3 or none of the above?
    Tom,

    "None of the above" (see image).

    It is vented, vented with an improperly installed AAV.

    An 'S' does not have a vent, it is, quite simply, and as you and others have shown, a 'S' shape laying on its side.

    The photo simply does not show an 'S' trap.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  54. #54
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    sorry tom, aav, mis typo, been working on hot water system may have been on two pages at same time


  55. #55
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Tom,

    "None of the above" (see image).

    It is vented, vented with an improperly installed AAV.
    I'm not altogether clear as to why you believe the AAV is improperly installed.

    Is it the single 45 used to offset the AAV?

    I would have used two 45's myself, but a single 45 is still acceptable, as is a 22, as it is still considered a vertical installation -- Anything over 45 degrees though, say a 60 or a 90 would definitely be considered horizontal.

    Having said all of that, most of the adopted plumbing codes in the US (IPC, UPC or SPC) would allow the AAV to be installed horizontally once it was six inches above the crown of the trap.

    I know, it's a head scratcher to be sure, but those are the accepted installation procedures accepted by both the code writing authorities and the products manufacturers.


  56. #56
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf
    Studor vent installation guide/requirements... (I know this is only 1 brand, but they limit the angle it can be installed on...)
    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/mslusar/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]

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  57. #57
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Slusar View Post
    http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf
    Studor vent installation guide/requirements... (I know this is only 1 brand, but they limit the angle it can be installed on...)
    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/mslusar/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]
    Interesting -- Do you have a publication date?

    The original installation guide showed them installed in every orientation but upside down -- As did most of the illustrated versions of the three most common Plumbing Codes.

    Anyhow, it sounds like I'll need to re-assess my installation practices.

    Thanks for the heads up.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    The original installation guide showed them installed in every orientation but upside down -- As did most of the illustrated versions of the three most common Plumbing Codes.

    Are you sure?

    I talked with Stu, the inventor of the Studor Vent when he first brought them over to the states and he, and the installation instructions, was very explicit that the AAV had to be within 15 degrees of vertical.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  59. #59
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Are you sure?

    I talked with Stu, the inventor of the Studor Vent when he first brought them over to the states and he, and the installation instructions, was very explicit that the AAV had to be within 15 degrees of vertical.
    Yeah, I'm very sure, as were the code writing authorities who adopted the device and the installation practices illustrated in their respective codes.

    BTW, "Stu" may or may not have invented the device that bears his name, as you allege above, but it should be noted that the concept of Air Admittance Valves predate "Stu's" invention by about 20 years.

    Also -- Since there is no such thing as a 15 degree bend, one must assume that this is an artificially proscribed limitation designed to cover the manufacturers butt.


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    Talking Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    I have read all the posts, and I Tony Mount approves everything that Cobra Cook has posted.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    Yeah, I'm very sure, as were the code writing authorities who adopted the device and the installation practices illustrated in their respective codes.
    That's what I am asking - SHOW US some of those references.

    BTW, "Stu" may or may not have invented the device that bears his name, as you allege above, but it should be noted that the concept of Air Admittance Valves predate "Stu's" invention by about 20 years.
    Actually, Stu brought it over from Europe. Not sure if he invented it there, or improved on it there for use here.

    Also -- Since there is no such thing as a 15 degree bend, one must assume that this is an artificially proscribed limitation designed to cover the manufacturers butt.
    "no such thing as a 15 degree bend"???

    Not sure where that came from, but there sure is such a thing as being greater than 15 degrees from vertical, and that is achieve by any number of means.

    The reason for the "within 15 degrees of vertical" is the AAV operates by pressure differential raising, and allowing gravity to lower, a seal, which needs to be within 15 degrees of vertical to assure the seal raises and lowers properly without interference which would not allow the seal to fall back onto its seats.

    Installing an AAV upside down and the seal will ALWAYS be open.

    I am beginning to suspect that you are not referring to an AAV but to a mechanical vent, which is spring loaded, which probably would operate installed upside down (whether or not it is allowed that to be installed that way by the manufacturer is another matter).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  62. #62
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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Pictured is not a Studor(R) brand device.

    Appears to be an Oatey(R) brand Sure-vent (R) with a wrong adapter and improper connection method and improper installation method to 1-1/4" and is inconsistant with Manufacturer's listing, testing, and instructions. As installed one cannot unscrew and extract the AAV as it is pegged up against the bottom of vanity and cabinet. As installed it cannot function properly.

    An Oatey Sure-vent is limited to a 15-degree offset that's less than a 1/8 bend.

    An AAV must be 6" above the highest flood level rim of the fixtures being vented in stack applicatons. When being used as a branch or fixture vent an AAV must be 4" or more above the trap weir.

    This is important to note about Oatey Sure-Vent(R)s: "Installation: Read installation instructions prior to use of this product. Always consult local plumbing codes prior to installing an AAV. Individual, branch and circuit vents are permitted to terminate with a connection to a Sure-Vent AAV. The Sure-Vent AAV will only vent fixtures that are on the same floor and connect to a horizontal branch drain. The horizontal branch drain shall connect to the drainage stack a maximum of four branch intervals from the top of the stack. The Sure-Vent(R) AAV should be located within the maximum developed length permitted for the vent. The Sure-Vent AAV must be located a minimum of 4 inches above the horizontal branch drain and six inches above any insulation material and within 15 degrees of vertical. Every structure in which plumbing is installed shall have at least one primary stack vent. The stack vent should run as directly as possible from the building drain through to the open air." (from submittal sheet:
    http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...et/6%20DFU.pdf )

    Therefore the assertion that the AAV pictured could eliminate the need for a stack vent to open air (not another AAV) was and is incorrect. Although this might be allowed for manufactured homes, it is not permitted in the plumbing codes for homes, nor by this (the pictured AAV)manufacturer (Oatey).

    The "vent" to AAV is not sealed, it (the 1-1/4" vent) is jammed into a connector designed to fit to a larger trade size and is not sealed.

    If not installed after Colo.'s adoption of the 2003 IPC (mid 2005) it was not legal (approved) under UPC (This brand and model AAV).

    See also Tech/Spec document:
    http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in..._SVA_link3.pdf
    page 12 of 69 of the pdf document:

    An AAV has only one (1) moving part, and therefore must be accessible for inspection, service, repair, or replacement. Accessible means that the AAV must be able to be reached, yet may first require the removal of a panel, door, etc. The need for accessibility does not eliminate the ability to solvent weld an AAV to the DWV system. An AAV cannot be located in an inaccessible location such as behind drywall, plaster, paneling, etc.

    Should an AAV be installed behind a wall, an appropriate louvered grill must be installed in front of the AAV so as to assure proper air movement. Such openings shall be no less than the aggregate cross-sectional airea of the required nominal vent opening. An unimpeded air supply must be available at all times to the AAV.

    4" minimum horizontal rise before offset or AAV (measured center to center).

    Hint: An offset is a change in direction.

    http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/OAT_AAV_SVA_link3.pdf
    see B on page marked 46, appears as pg 65 of 69 of the pdf document.

    Offset Rough-in: The "vent" is stubbed out to the left or right of the trap stub-out. The vent pipe must rise vertically a minimum of 4" (measured center to center) before offsetting inside the wall cavity.

    It has been mentioned that the vent may be stubbed out directly above the trap stub, this however still requires a trap arm of a minimum distance length of twice the trade size beyond the crown.

    This is not installed on a horizontal branch drain.
    There is not 4" vertical rise before offset or AAV.
    There is not minimum distance before venting (crown vented)
    The AAV is improperly installed and cannot function as intended, especially in this application.

    This is a crown vented trap, and is non-compliant with plumbing codes, with or without the Oatey Sure-Vent AAV.


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-26-2009 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Would You Call This An 'S' Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Pictured is not a Studor(R) brand device.

    Appears to be an Oatey(R) brand Sure-vent (R)
    H.G.,

    I believe that is a Studor Vent as that is what they look like from that angle. The Oatey Sure-Vent looks different.

    An Oatey Sure-vent is limited to a 15-degree offset that's less than a 1/8 bend.
    Yes, and for the same reasons.

    Therefore the assertion that the AAV pictured could eliminate the need for a stack vent to open air (not another AAV) was and is incorrect.

    To my knowledge, all AAVs require *at least one* vent on the system to vent to open air outdoors.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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