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  1. #1
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    Default What would you say about these water pipes?

    New water pipes to the old clawfoot tub. Plumbing permit pulled but not closed out yet.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Awkward!

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Inadequate Clearance.
    * attachment courtesy of WC Jerry.
    .

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Inadequate Clearance.
    * attachment courtesy of WC Jerry.
    .
    There is adequate clearance between the stool and tub. The diagrams don't really have anything to do with pipes, just fixtures and walls.

    I actually suggested routing them along the floor, then vertical to the tub to prevent accidental breakage.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    There is adequate clearance between the stool and tub. The diagrams don't really have anything to do with pipes, just fixtures and walls.

    I actually suggested routing them along the floor, then vertical to the tub to prevent accidental breakage.
    Actually the pipes are encroaching on the fixtures so they do count! You still need a proper clearance around the toilet and the tub. This might be the reason that their is not a final inspection from the AHJ.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe;109390[SIZE=3
    There is adequate clearance between the stool and tub[/SIZE]. The diagrams don't really have anything to do with pipes

    , just fixtures and walls.
    .
    .
    So The Supply Lines Attached To The Tub ( that is within the minimum clearance )
    don't have anything to do with the diagram ?

    If the Minimum Clearance was obstructed say with a Cast Iron Vent, Roof Support, Column of Glass Blocks or any other Permanent obstruction other than fixtures or walls then they do not count?
    .

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    So The Supply Lines Attached To The Tub ( that is within the minimum clearance )
    don't have anything to do with the diagram ?

    If the Minimum Clearance was obstructed say with a Cast Iron Vent, Roof Support, Column of Glass Blocks or any other Permanent obstruction other than fixtures or walls then they do not count?
    .
    All I'm saying is the diagram which you posted does not address items other than fixtures and walls. The posted diagram does not address water pipes. Not even the one for a toilet which would normally stick out from the wall or floor. If this diagram was meant to address water pipes the supply line for the toilet should be in this diagram.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Actually the pipes are encroaching on the fixtures so they do count! You still need a proper clearance around the toilet and the tub. This might be the reason that their is not a final inspection from the AHJ.
    I agree they are encroaching and are not adequately supported. I'm guessing it will also be flagged when the plumbing inspection is finalized. The permit was only pulled last week and the house is in the process of being rehabed.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post

    All I'm saying is the diagram which you posted does not address items other than fixtures and walls.

    The posted diagram does not address water pipes. Not even the one for a toilet which would normally stick out from the wall or floor.

    If this diagram was meant to address water pipes the supply line for the toilet should be in this diagram
    .
    .
    I"ll Get West Coast Jerry on It ASAP .
    * the intent of the diagram is to be used as a Quick Reference to Permanent Obstructions for Proper Clearance to the Front and Side of the Toilet.

    Do You Also Install Toilet Supply Lines In Front of The Bowl ?
    .


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    I"ll Get West Coast Jerry on It ASAP .
    * the intent of the diagram is to be used as a Quick Reference to Permanent Obstructions for Proper Clearance to the Front and Side of the Toilet.

    Do You Also Install Toilet Supply Lines In Front of The Bowl ?
    .
    I guess I don't get your analogy. The supply lines for the tub aren't on the wrong side of the tub.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post

    I guess I don't get your analogy.

    The supply lines for the tub aren't on the wrong side of the tub.
    .
    Ken,

    But They Do Encroach ( Permanently ) into the Required Clearance of The Toilet Bowl.
    .
    If it were say a Door that opened ( not Permanently ) into the Required Clearance of 15 inches Center line of the Toilet it would be dumb but could be moved out of the Required Clearance of 15 inches Center Line and be Allowed.
    .
    .

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Ken,

    But They Do Encroach ( Permanently ) into the Required Clearance of The Toilet Bowl.
    .
    If it were say a Door that opened ( not Permanently ) into the Required Clearance of 15 inches Center line of the Toilet it would be dumb but could be moved out of the Required Clearance of 15 inches Center Line and be Allowed.
    .
    .
    I agree that they do encroach. I've already stated that. But I was looking for specific information which the diagram you posted did not address.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    .

    . But I was looking for specific information which the diagram you posted did not address.
    .
    Feel Free to Add To The Diagram with the Specifics of Your Choice.
    * please Post It so others May Learn.
    .
    .

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Its just wrong. The pipes are not protected and kids are not protected from them
    You just cannot have water lines exposed in such a location. Throw the rule books away and stop looking for your answer ther. It is not logically correct in any way. I can see a kid stepping on them to climb into the tub etc etc etc.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Maybe they can paint them green and that would fix everything, aside, routing them on the floor would be the best suggestion since citing a source specifically for the pipes would be tough to find.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Maybe they can paint them green and that would fix everything, aside, routing them on the floor would be the best suggestion since citing a source specifically for the pipes would be tough to find.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Refer to plumber to correct plumbing/piping defect.


    My fix would be to build a short wall to hide them in, maybe put the toilet on an elevated floor, they SHOULD re-route the pipes in the basement if posible. That piping is just flat wrong and there is no easy way to correct it without moving the pipes.

    Just like putting a support column in the dead center of a living room... just in the way and shouldn't be there.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Aesthetics aside, there are clearance issues for the pipe and fixtures and walls. There is possible burn hazards with close proximity to the un-insulated hot water pipe. I also agree with the possible pipe damage.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Lyons View Post
    Refer to plumber to correct plumbing/piping defect.


    My fix would be to build a short wall to hide them in, maybe put the toilet on an elevated floor, they SHOULD re-route the pipes in the basement if posible. That piping is just flat wrong and there is no easy way to correct it without moving the pipes.

    Just like putting a support column in the dead center of a living room... just in the way and shouldn't be there.

    This was done by a licensed plumber, with a permit. (permit not finalized).

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    This was done by a licensed plumber, with a permit. (permit not finalized).
    I doubt the inspector will approve of that safety hazard. The inspector can force him to correct the issue, by not signing off the permit. If the permit is not closed the homeowner has recourse to without payment for incomplete work.

    A permit is not a license to do faulty work, the purpose of the permit is to allow the city inspector to catch these idiots before they leave the job site and demand they do it right.

    If that piping is in a slab, he is going to have to suck it up and use a jack hammer to redo the piping, properly. Getting a permit does not automaticly guarentee that it's to code. Everyone here has seen crappy work, done with a permit... usually it's the inspector who didn't care or catch it.


    A homeowner doing work without a permit is liable to themselves if it's not to code, they put themselves in danger. A contractor without a permit, places the homeowner in danger without the homeowner knowing the danger. A permit lets the city know to check this issue to ensure the homeowner is not placed in danger by faulty work.......and to raise taxes.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    There is not anything in the IRC that this type of installation violates. We all know that the IRC doesn't allow for common sense though!

    It does violate the ADA though as far as protection of the pipes for those that are sensitive to hot or cold. Only thing is...this is not a commercial use!


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    Post Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Functional. Poor workmanship. That is about all that can be said. As for the code inspection, chances are good that this will be approved. It will depend on the jurisdiction, and how picky the inspectors are, and whether or not they have been allowed to be picky. In my service area, code inspectors would approve this. It is "right"? That's very arguable. Perhaps, if the safety concerns were explained to the plumber, along with the potential for litigation, he may be inclined to take the time to move the supply pipes, despite the tile work that will have to be done.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Moreover, those pipes appear to be 1/2" (???), if so, 3/4" would be preferrable.

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I agree they are encroaching and are not adequately supported. I'm guessing it will also be flagged when the plumbing inspection is finalized. The permit was only pulled last week and the house is in the process of being rehabed.
    The workmans nylon arm chair really says it all. Despite what the AHJ may or may not do you need to mention to your client the poor workmanship, clea rances, hazards (hot water piping, entanglement, etc.) and then let the chips fall where they may.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    All I'm saying is the diagram which you posted does not address items other than fixtures and walls. The posted diagram does not address water pipes.
    Actually, that drawing DOES address those pipes, and ANYTHING ELSE.

    This is because the space shown in those drawings is CLEAR FLOOR SPACE, meaning NOTHING is allowed to intrude into that space, not even pipes.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, that drawing DOES address those pipes, and ANYTHING ELSE.

    This is because the space shown in those drawings is CLEAR FLOOR SPACE, meaning NOTHING is allowed to intrude into that space, not even pipes.
    I have to disagree. The diagram shows only walls and fixtures, not pipes whatsoever. It has no statement regarding "clear floor space" and has no reference as to where the diagram originated. As a litigation consultant you know it's never safe to assume anything. We all agree it was a screwed up mess, but I was looking for something that would show the installation was irrefutably incorrect. This diagram just doesn't show that.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I have to disagree. The diagram shows only walls and fixtures, not pipes whatsoever. It has no statement regarding "clear floor space" and has no reference as to where the diagram originated.
    Ken,

    Did you read the bottom?

    Where it says "Minimum Fixture CLEARances"?

    That is what it is showing, CLEARances to the nearest obstruction, which is anticipated to be a wall or a partition, but is not limited to be a wall or a partition.

    As a litigation consultant you know it's never safe to assume anything.
    Which is why you should have done two things:
    1) Read what that figure is about - it is written at the bottom right under "Figure R307.2".
    2) Understand the code requirements that figure is derived from in the code and what it is depicting.

    We all agree it was a screwed up mess, but I was looking for something that would show the installation was irrefutably incorrect. This diagram just doesn't show that.
    That diagram DOES show that, as long as you did, and you understood, 1) and 2) above.

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    I love the neatness of his bending of the curves. Maybe on a concrete slab by the way the vent comes up and then goes into the wall, also the fact that the toilet supply comes up at the side of the toilet instead of the normal left side of the rear. If it is over a crawl space or basement the plumber was just lazy.
    According to the drawing like it or not, the side measurement of the wall to the center of the toilet is what will be enforced and sadly it looks ok, if it is not 15 inches to the wall side of the flush handle, it is not.
    If the home was being renovated for a handicapped resident, it would not pass inspection because they have different clearance requirements for "both" sides of the toilet in a residential home. No matter what the inspector says if the owner does not like it and can not see future problems, they have the right to say that it is not acceptable or not and want it done in a more acceptable and professional manner.
    Most slaw foot tubs have exposed pipes but not to this extreme, if looks like the tub was already there and the owner wanted a toilet installed later.



  29. #29
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Well, at least the original tap set was replaced with one that doesn't have the potential to cross-connect, unless of course the shower head is on a flexible hose and reaches into the tub.

    The hot run may be a burn hazard if that mixing valve is not set low enough.

    I would reccommend rerunning the connection so that it could be boxed in to the extent possible (low and back to the wall).

    Esthetics, except as the extent it may effect future of the propery, is irrelevant. Is this a single item that stands out as odd in the house? I doubt it.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    Did you read the bottom?

    Where it says "Minimum Fixture CLEARances"?

    That is what it is showing, CLEARances to the nearest obstruction, which is anticipated to be a wall or a partition, but is not limited to be a wall or a partition.



    Which is why you should have done two things:
    1) Read what that figure is about - it is written at the bottom right under "Figure R307.2".
    2) Understand the code requirements that figure is derived from in the code and what it is depicting.



    That diagram DOES show that, as long as you did, and you understood, 1) and 2) above.
    I still disagree. Minimum Fixture Clearances means clearance between fixtures. Pipes are not fixtures.

    The UPC defines Plumbing Fixtures as " A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises." PIPES ARE NOT FIXTURES

    "Figure R307.2" does not indicate whatsoever where the document originated. No where on this diagram does it state that it's from any plumbing code. We might assume by the figure number but the document itself does not show that it is.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    KR, If you cannot read a diagram and its notes or title, or read a code section I doubt you'd be able to read and comprehend a post explaining here. You have been provided the answer to your question (a 30" wide free zone for nothing but the WC and accessibility) from the centerline of the WC left to right and 24" (not 21", per Minnesota Plumbing Code, citation below) forward from the front lip of the bowl. This is consistant with Minnesota Ammendments. The door and wall to the left of the bowl IS of issue down the road if the designed permanent location, and swing.

    Next, don't know why you have your shorts in a bundle in the first place. You later added this plumbing permit was a WEEK old and work was in progress on a remodel project. Its obviously a temporary hook-up.

    It is NOT uncommon for a plumbing contractor to provide temporary hook-ups to keep a bath (and toilet and sink for that matter) temporarily functional for the period work is in progress. It is in fact better practice to keep the plumbing system "clean" rather than have unpiped and exposed valve outlets.

    It is more common to WAIT until the ordered exposed finished claw foot tub exposed supply and drain lines (and often a shower riser) come IN (special order often) to the supply house, before re-routing the supply (assuring fit and location clearances).

    Why are you even involved at this point? Have you even reviewed the PLAN?

    If you have concerns I suggest you find out when the next stage of inspection will take place and be there then, in the meantime look at the PLAN and the permit application and have a stab at finding out just what the codes are in the jurisdiction and what MATERIAL specifications are that are permitted to supply the TUB.

    See: Minnesota Plumbing Code Link: http://www.dli.mn.gov/ccld/PDF/pe_code09.pdf

    -4715.1220 INSTALLATION OF FIXTURES.
    --Subpart 1. Fixtures. Fixtures must be set level and in proper alignment with reference to adjacent walls. No water closet may be set closer than 15 inches from its center to any side wall or partition nor closer than 30 inches, center to center, between toilets. At least a 24-inch clearance must be provided in front of water closets. Note: The centerline of water closets used primarily by children 12 and younger must be a minimum of 12 inches to a maximum of 18 inches from the side wall or partition.

    --(skipped paragraph regarding urinals)

    --Plumbing fixtures must be so installed as to afford easy access for cleaning both the fixture and the area around it. Where practical, all pipes from fixtures must be run to the nearest wall.

    4715.1440 PROTECTION OF PLASTIC PIPE. (yes I know, bad title but read it, includes copper pipe and copper tube)

    All plastic and copper pipe and tubing passing through studs or plates that are within one and one-fourth inches of the outside of the stud or plate must be protected by the provision of 1/16 inch or 0.060 mild steel plates attached to the outside of the stud or plate, or equivalent protection.

    See also: 4715.1240 BATHTUBS and 4715.1420 WATER CLOSETS

    and if a shower is planed, see:

    -4715.1380 SHOWERS.
    --Subpart 1. Water supply riser. Every water supply riser from the shower valve to the shower head outlet, whether exposed or not, shall be securely attached to the structure.

    And since you made a point of throwing around definitions, let us use the correct one for your application. You'll find it in subpart 80 of Part 4715.0100 of the Minnesota Plumbing Code (Minnesota Administrative Rules):

    -4715.0100 DEFINITIONS.
    --Subp. 46. Fixture. See "plumbing fixture."
    --Subp. 80 Plumbing fixture. "Plumbing fixture" means a receptacle or device which is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system, and demands a supply of water therefrom, or it discharges used water, liquid-borne waste materials, or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system, or which requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system. Plumbing appliances as a special class of fixture are further defined.

    Edited to include citations and Minnesota Plumbing Code quotations.


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-21-2009 at 02:23 PM.

  32. #32
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    Smile Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Robert, you not run 3/4 pipe to a sink,tub or toilet. The main line in a house is a minimum 3/4 but to the branches 1/2 is the norm.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Robert, you not run 3/4 pipe to a sink,tub or toilet. The main line in a house is a minimum 3/4 but to the branches 1/2 is the norm.
    Not necessarily true. You run what ever is required to support the supply fixture unit demand on the branch (and this varies by code if private or public for the specific plumbing fixtures).


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    H.G. You seem to assume too much. The house was vacant. Is it common practice for a plumber to solder in temporary water piping to the bathtub of a vacant house? Let me answer that for you. No, it isn't. The house was being rehabbed and I was hired by the buyer to do a buyer's inspection. There were no plans presented to me and I have no right to ask for them, so why do ask if I even reviewed them? You should read the entire thread before jumping in with your opinions. If you had actually read this thread you would already know what I told the buyers. You would also know that the disagreement I'm having with JP has nothing to do with these pipes, but the diagram that was originally submitted. Add in the fact that JP seems to believe water pipes are considered fixtures and you might have a clue.

    Thank you for producing the Minnesota PC fixture definition. It shows you can read my profile to see where I live. Doesn't do much good in this case though since the house is in Wisconsin. You should ask questions before you assume too much. By the way, Minnesota doesn't define water pipes as fixtures either. Now use up another hour of your spare time and look up the Wisconsin PC for me.
    Yes it is. Copper brazing a few pieces is minutes, done all the time. Won't stub out leaving dead ends with water use elsewhere! Unless the plumber wants to risk losing the C of O on the structure, or contaminating the plumbing system, it is VERY COMMON. Are you really so ignorant to not know that tradesmen use the bathtub all the time during rehab? Clearing drains of soliified muck from shop vac debris, drywall and plaster mud, etc. is big bucks post remodel/rehab for plumbers .

    So now you're working in Wisconsin. Well, thanks for sharing. You can look up the codes yourself, won't do you much good since you don't know what they mean, heck you can't even read a diagram!

    And oh yeah, running plumbing system on the floor surface, that's going to pass, Ha!


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I still disagree. Minimum Fixture Clearances means clearance between fixtures. Pipes are not fixtures.

    The UPC defines Plumbing Fixtures as " A receptacle or device that is either permanently or temporarily connected to the water distribution system of the premises and demands a supply of water therefrom; discharges wastewater, liquid-borne waste materials or sewage either directly or indirectly to the drainage system of the premises; or requires both a water supply connection and a discharge to the drainage system of the premises." PIPES ARE NOT FIXTURES

    "Figure R307.2" does not indicate whatsoever where the document originated. No where on this diagram does it state that it's from any plumbing code. We might assume by the figure number but the document itself does not show that it is.
    You still do not get it. Minimum Fixture Clearances are the Minimum CLEAR area for EACH FIXTURE. The code FLOOR view or footprint diagram and language further define/diagram clearances between various fixture arrangements/groupings and walls/partitions/and other temporary and permanent obstructions. PIPES INVADING THE FOOTPRINT ARE NOT CLEAR they are encumbrances/encroachments INTO THE REQUIRED CLEAR FLOOR AREA.

    Slap yourself on the head. The toilet supply is also not allowed to ENCROACH - that is why you will often find it BEHIND THE rear wall/rim of the BOWL/STOOL and in the case of a tank WC - under the tank.

    You cannot have anything touching the stool/bowl of a WC foreign to the WC. There must be clearance to not only use/address the WC but also to CLEAN IT.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    H.G. You seem to assume too much. The house was vacant. Is it common practice for a plumber to solder in temporary water piping to the bathtub of a vacant house? Let me answer that for you. No, it isn't. The house was being rehabbed and I was hired by the buyer to do a buyer's inspection. There were no plans presented to me and I have no right to ask for them, so why do ask if I even reviewed them? You should read the entire thread before jumping in with your opinions. If you had actually read this thread you would already know what I told the buyers. You would also know that the disagreement I'm having with JP has nothing to do with these pipes, but the diagram that was originally submitted. Add in the fact that JP seems to believe water pipes are considered fixtures and you might have a clue.

    Thank you for producing the Minnesota PC fixture definition. It shows you can read my profile to see where I live. Doesn't do much good in this case though since the house is in Wisconsin. You should ask questions before you assume too much. By the way, Minnesota doesn't define water pipes as fixtures either. Now use up another hour of your spare time and look up the Wisconsin PC for me.
    Why would I do that? expecially since WI requires "home inspectors" to be licensed, and the only Licensed Home Inspector in Wisconsin with a last name of Rowe has a first name of Robert, and a middle initial D, and in my book that doesn't = Ken Rowe, "Home Inspector", legal to inspect a home in Wisconsin, and why should I repeat a question, you don't answer them, (asked a question in first post on this topic).

    Wisconsin DRL - Credential Lookup

    A home inspector is an individual who, for compensation, examines the observable systems and components of improvements to residential real property that are readily accessible.
    No individual may act as a home inspector, use the title "home inspector", use any title or description that implies that he or she is a home inspector or represent himself or herself to be a home inspector unless the individual is registered under Chapter 440, Subchapter X, Wis. Stats.

    That's from this link: DRL - Home Inspector

    Now, if you're claiming to be operating under: "An individual who constructs, repairs or maintains improvements to residential real property, if the individual conducts home inspections only as part of his or her business of constructing, repairing or maintaining improvements to real property and if the individual does not describe himself or herself as a registered home inspector or convey the impression that he or she is a registered home inspector." You should be too ASHAMED to admit this is your own debacle and that you haven't a clue how it should be done:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe
    I actually suggested routing them along the floor, then vertical to the tub to prevent accidental breakage.



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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Why would I do that? expecially since WI requires "home inspectors" to be licensed, and the only Licensed Home Inspector in Wisconsin with a last name of Rowe has a first name of Robert, and a middle initial D, and in my book that doesn't = Ken Rowe, "Home Inspector", legal to inspect a home in Wisconsin, and why should I repeat a question, you don't answer them, (asked a question in first post on this topic).

    Wisconsin DRL - Credential Lookup

    A home inspector is an individual who, for compensation, examines the observable systems and components of improvements to residential real property that are readily accessible.
    No individual may act as a home inspector, use the title "home inspector", use any title or description that implies that he or she is a home inspector or represent himself or herself to be a home inspector unless the individual is registered under Chapter 440, Subchapter X, Wis. Stats.

    That's from this link: DRL - Home Inspector

    Now, if you're claiming to be operating under: "An individual who constructs, repairs or maintains improvements to residential real property, if the individual conducts home inspections only as part of his or her business of constructing, repairing or maintaining improvements to real property and if the individual does not describe himself or herself as a registered home inspector or convey the impression that he or she is a registered home inspector." You should be too ASHAMED to admit this is your own debacle and that you haven't a clue how it should be done:
    LOL, How often do you think they update their web site? Maybe you should give them a call or maybe a letter. (hint) do you really believe there are only 106 licensed home inspectors in the entire state of Wisconsin as indicated on their site?) And, while we're talking credentials, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. If you're too afraid to post them publicly I would suggest you stop trying to "help".

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 11-21-2009 at 07:25 PM.
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I still disagree. Minimum Fixture Clearances means clearance between fixtures. Pipes are not fixtures.

    Ken,

    Before you make yourself look sillier than you already have made yourself look, read the code section below. IT SHOULD answer your question, if you can read.

    From the 2006 IPC. (red, bold and underlining are mine)
    - 405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets. A water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30 inches (762 mm) center-to-center between adjacent fixtures. There shall be at least a 21-inch (533 mm) clearance in front of the water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet to any wall, fixture or door. Water closet compartments shall not be less than 30 inches (762 mm) wide and 60 inches (1524 mm) deep (see Figure 405.3.1).

    Let me know if I need to explain "or other obstruction" to you.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ken,

    Before you make yourself look sillier than you already have made yourself look, read the code section below. IT SHOULD answer your question, if you can read.

    From the 2006 IPC. (red, bold and underlining are mine)
    - 405.3.1 Water closets, urinals, lavatories and bidets. A water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet shall not be set closer than 15 inches (381 mm) from its center to any side wall, partition, vanity or other obstruction, or closer than 30 inches (762 mm) center-to-center between adjacent fixtures. There shall be at least a 21-inch (533 mm) clearance in front of the water closet, urinal, lavatory or bidet to any wall, fixture or door. Water closet compartments shall not be less than 30 inches (762 mm) wide and 60 inches (1524 mm) deep (see Figure 405.3.1).

    Let me know if I need to explain "or other obstruction" to you.
    JP, yes I understand that. However, the diagram previously submitted did not say this. It referred only to fixtures. It did not mention "other obstructions" and that's my argument. I'm not one to read into or assume anything.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    JP, yes I understand that. However, the diagram previously submitted did not say this. It referred only to fixtures. It did not mention "other obstructions" and that's my argument. I'm not one to read into or assume anything.
    Which gets back to you apparently not knowing and not understanding the code and where that drawing came from.

    Which is why you keep trying to defend your position, a position based either on ignorance, lack of knowledge, or simply that you cannot admit when you are wrong.

    Either way, the result is the same - you are wrong.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    LOL, How often do you think they update their web site? Maybe you should give them a call or maybe a letter. (hint) do you really believe there are only 106 licensed home inspectors in the entire state of Wisconsin as indicated on their site?) And, while we're talking credentials, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. If you're too afraid to post them publicly I would suggest you stop trying to "help".
    Hey genius (106) is the database LIST number i.e. profession or credential category, not the total number of licensed individuals in that category of licensing (Home Inspector) in Wisconsin.

    Wisconsin DRL - Credential Lookup - Credential List

    Ah and the list is up to date (refreshed Hourly - during stated business hours according to that page) - and you ain't on it.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    JP, yes I understand that. However, the diagram previously submitted did not say this. It referred only to fixtures. It did not mention "other obstructions" and that's my argument. I'm not one to read into or assume anything.

    No it "said" MINIMUM FIXTURE CLEARANCES. Within it says "Clearance" in several places along with a number followed by the inches sign. Despite your assertion of an insertion of the word "between" previously that wasn't part of the title nor appears on the figure.

    It diagramed "CLEARANCE" i.e. 21" in front of Lav, 24" shower, 21" in front of WC (although MPC its 24"), 15" center to side clearance of WC. Perhaps you don't know how to read the word "clearance". Can you SEE the word Clearance within the diagrams contained on the Figure itself? (hint: expand the view to full screen, perhaps you're scroll bar "challenged").

    See your argument is your own ignorance or stupidity, you're obviously one to NOT READ ANYTHING this also seems to include the requirement to have a license to do home inspections in the state of Wisconsin.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Who is H.G. Watson Sr.?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    No it "said" MINIMUM FIXTURE CLEARANCES. Within it says "Clearance" in several places along with a number followed by the inches sign. Despite your assertion of an insertion of the word "between" previously that wasn't part of the title nor appears on the figure.

    It diagramed "CLEARANCE" i.e. 21" in front of Lav, 24" shower, 21" in front of WC (although MPC its 24"), 15" center to side clearance of WC. Perhaps you don't know how to read the word "clearance". Can you SEE the word Clearance within the diagrams contained on the Figure itself? (hint: expand the view to full screen, perhaps you're scroll bar "challenged").

    See your argument is your own ignorance or stupidity, you're obviously one to NOT READ ANYTHING this also seems to include the requirement to have a license to do home inspections in the state of Wisconsin.
    Apparently you have no clue on how to read or interpret the diagram. Arrows pointing to a bathtub and stool with a number and the words minimum clearance means the minimum clearance between the fixture.

    And before we discuss my credentials further how about you coming clean with your real name, a real city of residence and maybe a credential or two. Until then I can only assume your one of the master inspectors who've done 1000 hours of education but never performed an inspection.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Who is H.G. Watson Sr.?
    He's a master inspector who's had 1000 hours of training but never performed an inspection. Apparently he has no experience with blue prints either.

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    SP, you know who I am stop playing games. I realize you're bitter, have a personal axe to grind, a centrally insecure and low opinion of yourself, and that you have a warped opinion of P.E.s especially those with even more letters that follow, and anyone with (decades) more experience in Construction Litigation and hundreds of cases as an EW, but enough about my quarter of a century of teaching, decades of professional public and private work, and just where and how one can find information about me when authorized is, already. Perhaps its time to test the waters again for an Umbrella.


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    SP, you know who I am stop playing games. I realize you're bitter, have a personal axe to grind, a centrally insecure and low opinion of yourself, and that you have a warped opinion of P.E.s especially those with even more letters that follow, and anyone with (decades) more experience in Construction Litigation and hundreds of cases as an EW, but enough about my quarter of a century of teaching, decades of professional public and private work, and just where and how one can find information about me when authorized is, already. Perhaps its time to test the waters again for an Umbrella.
    So in other words, just an internet troll with no inspection experience. Otherwise he's use his real name and list his credentials.

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  49. #49
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    Red face Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Again, you do not need to run 3/4 pipe to a toilet, sink or tub under any code no way, no how and most of all no reason. Hot water tanks yes but not any of the above. Some commercial sinks require it where there are mop sinks or triple, deep sinks with no restrictions on the spout, but not a home which is the subject of this forum. Toilets and sinks only have a 3/8 water supply line connecting them and that is reduced inside to less than that. Tub and shower valves have 3/8 or 1/2 inch connection and are reduced internally to maximum flow and gpm. Why on earth would you have to under any circumstance need to run a 3/4 line to feed those appliances? HG Iím glad you did point out that the piping is not considered an appliance as another writer stated earlier. Lets face it if it looks like crap then most of the time it is crap, I do not buy the reasoning that it may have been temporary so that the plumber or others could shower or painters could wash their brushes. If this was on septic system paint will kill it. If, it was just temporary then plastic lines would have been much easier and cheaper to install than that pretty copper tubing and really clean neat looking bends. As a home inspector when I see, if I ever do see it my question to the seller would be did some one get a permit to do it? if they could produce a permit passed by the county or city then there would be little recourse except to tell the buyer in your report that it is unsafe due to the hot water lines being so close to your feet. If that does not suck a t--d back up, nothing would.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Can some one point me in the right direction on how to upload a picture to this site?


  51. #51
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Can some one point me in the right direction on how to upload a picture to this site?
    Look at the post box. you see the paper clip. click on that. click on browse
    find your image. select then click up load. and close. then go to perview post to see your post with the image.

    Best

    Ron


  52. #52
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    Question Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    I did that but it said my photos are too big, i tried to make them smaller but? thanks for the responce


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    .
    i tried .........but?
    .
    ....
    .

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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    .
    i tried........... but?
    .
    ....
    .

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
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  55. #55
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Can some one point me in the right direction on how to upload a picture to this site?
    When you reply to a post, below where you are typing your reply, scroll down and you will see upload pics. Click on browse, go to your pic, double click, Waite until it stops spinning and then click on upload. If you click on the picture and immediately click the submit button the picture won't be finished uploading. Be patient


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    I did that but it said my photos are too big, i tried to make them smaller but? thanks for the responce
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    When you reply to a post, below where you are typing your reply, scroll down and you will see upload pics. Click on browse, go to your pic, double click, Waite until it stops spinning and then click on upload. If you click on the picture and immediately click the submit button the picture won't be finished uploading. Be patient
    .
    Ted,

    Reading Isn't your Strong Suit.

    The Lad stated He tried that But His Stuff was Too Big.

    Try Here Bome's Image Resizer - Bome Software
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  57. #57
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    I did that but it said my photos are too big, i tried to make them smaller but? thanks for the responce
    You will need to resize your photos. Windows has a resizer available with their power tools. You can also download Faststone Image Viewer for free, it has resizing abilities and is a good program.

    I love reading the posts with all the flying insults. I appreciate the entertainment. Thank you all.


  58. #58
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    I do too, Thanks i will try when i get back in town


  59. #59
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    I don't have my code book with me or I would cite the section, but there is a provision against piping, DWV and water lines from interfering with or blocking normal operation of the house.

    An easy example is a pipe running in front of a window.

    Another provision requires the piping to be protected from damage.

    I would use both of those calls If I were the inspector on this job.

    Ray


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Inspector 3500I don't have my code book with me or I would cite the section, but there is a provision against piping, DWV and water lines from interfering with or blocking normal operation of the house.

    I would sure like to see that section of the code!

    Inspector 3500Another provision requires the piping to be protected from damage.


    There's nothing in the code about protection of piping in this situation in the IRC.


    P2603.2.1 Protection against physical damage.
    In concealed locations, where piping, other than cast-iron or galvanized
    steel, is installed through holes or notches in studs,
    joists, rafters or similar members less than 1.5 inches (38
    mm) from the nearest edge of the member, the pipe shall be
    protected by shield plates. Protective shield plates shall be a
    minimum of 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel, shall cover
    the area of the pipe where the member is notched or bored
    and shall extend a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) above sole
    plates and below top plates.


    P2603.3 Breakage and corrosion.


    Pipes passing through or under walls shall be protected from breakage. Pipes passing
    through concrete or cinder walls and floors, cold-formed steel
    framing or other corrosive material shall be protected against
    external corrosion by a protective sheathing or wrapping or
    other means that will withstand any reaction from lime and acid
    of concrete, cinder or other corrosive material. Sheathing or
    wrapping shall allowfor expansion and contraction of piping to
    prevent any rubbing action. Minimum wall thickness of material
    shall be 0.025 inch (0.64 mm).




  61. #61
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    What about providing protection against mechanical damage?


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Ted,

    Reading Isn't your Strong Suit.

    The Lad stated He tried that But His Stuff was Too Big.

    Try Here Bome's Image Resizer - Bome Software
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by James Foy View Post
    You will need to resize your photos. Windows has a resizer available with their power tools. You can also download Faststone Image Viewer for free, it has resizing abilities and is a good program.

    I love reading the posts with all the flying insults. I appreciate the entertainment. Thank you all.
    .
    Click on Bome's Link and Go To The Very Bottom and a FREE BETA Version is Available.
    .
    Dang Now Where Did I Leave My Fly Swatter ?
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  63. #63
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Hi Wayne,

    In the 2008 Oregon Code cycle (2006 IRC and UPC), the state dropped the plumbing and electrical sections from the residential code. Guess they thought why have a bastardized versions that referred you back to the UPC and NEC for items not covered in the IRC and just go with the real thing. So, I'm not sure of the IRC code sections but if you look a little further down from the sections you were quoting, say 2603.4,5, and 6 you should find something like this. Please excuse my paraphrasing from memory.

    UPC/OPSC 313.2 or 3 All piping in connection with a plumbing system shall be so installed so that piping and connections shall not be subject to undue strains and stresses and provisions will be made for expansion and contraction and structural settlement........

    UPC/OPSC 313.4 or 5 Piping subject to corrosion or erosion or mechanical damage shall be protected in an approved manor.

    UPC/OPSC 308 or 9 Plumbing piping shall not block or prevent the use of doors and windows or any building function.

    If you can't find these or need the exact code reference, I can get those for you tomorrow.

    Hope this helps...

    Ray


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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    Inspector 3500

    From my take on the pictures this is a residential application, so the IRC would be the code that dictates what is required.

    Also in our area, don't know about the original posters area, but we are on the International Codes.

    There is a section in the IPC that could be used in this situation IF this were a commercial installation.

    305.9 Protection of components of plumbing system.
    Components
    of a plumbing system installed along alleyways, driveways,
    parking garages or other locations exposed to damage
    shall be recessed into the wall or otherwise protected in an
    approved manner.

    This would be a stretch because I feel the intent of this section is talking about exterior plumbing.

    I found the Oregon Code online, but how would these sections apply to a situation like the original post? What type mechanical damage could occur?

    I still don't believe there is anything in the code that addresses something like this installation. Dumb code maybe!




  65. #65
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    Default Re: What would you say about these water pipes?

    What building code should have is a brief explanation of intent in plain English so everybody doesn't have to become a lawyer. Do the pipes pose a reasonable danger as configured. Let's see what the inspector says.


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