Thread: SinkPositive - Toilet-Sink Combination

The SinkPositive is a sink that is incorporated into the toilet tank lid. When the toilet is flushed water flows out of the sink faucet and drains into the tank. The user can wash his/her hands with water that goes to fill the toilet tank instead of having it go down the drain. I'm all for conserving water whenever practicable but something about the SinkPositive strikes me as odd.

Using the SinkPositive would seem to be awkward. You would have to either stand beside the toilet (impossible in many bathrooms) or straddle the bowl.

You would be washing your hands with cold water (unless you fill your toilet tanks with hot water).

You probably would have to wash your hands without soap because adding soap to the toilet tank could cause problems.

Has anyone run across one of these?

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Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

The SinkPositive

Has anyone run across one of these?

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Nope & Yuck !

Unless that Thing Has a Trap Built into the Lid ( which I doubt ) after a few years That Toilet Tank Water Gas will Waft ( yum ) now that is Nasty !!!
* Does it Double as Drinking Fountain as Well?
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I love it
That goes into the why did I not think of it category.
Great way to remember washing your hands and saves water.

Beats those low flow water tanks that get flushed 10 times.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Beats those low flow water tanks that get flushed 10 times.

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If It"s Sold in The Good Ole US of A it"s Limited to 1.6 Gallons of Water per Episode.
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Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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If It"s Sold in The Good Ole US of A it"s Limited to 1.6 Gallons of Water per Episode.
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Water conservation makes me giggle while living next to lake Michigan.

No matter how much anyone uses the same amount still exists.
It does not go into outer space.

It can transform , meaning it can transform back.

I haven't personally seen one but there was a good article on them in this month's ASHI Reporter.

Don't think it would need a trap since the tank is full of water.
Seems like a great idea for places of business or homes with limited space.

These have been very common in Japan for 30+ years, but then the rest of the world has been thinking about conserving water for a long time too. I have seen them in Europe reecently.

It can always be worse. Someone mentioned Japan.

rick

I've spec'd similar fixtures for prisons. They are also used in RV's.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

Has anyone run across one of these?

I ran across something similar when I was in jail, but it was made of stainless steel and didn't have a toilet seat.

Cold water and a bit of liquid soap makes for a fairly clean toilet, but leaning over them is a bit awkward. I've haven't seen any wafting issues, but that may have something to do with just how dirty the hands were after doing your business. Not sure that I would recommend one of these for Cheryl Crow.

Looks like a civilian version of combos they use in prisons. Wouldn't want to come home drunk to that rig---might get things backwards.

Man I hope they don't require this in California because conserving water here is a nessisity.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

The SinkPositive is a sink that is incorporated into the toilet tank lid. When the toilet is flushed water flows out of the sink faucet and drains into the tank. The user can wash his/her hands with water that goes to fill the toilet tank instead of having it go down the drain. I'm all for conserving water whenever practicable but something about the SinkPositive strikes me as odd.

Using the SinkPositive would seem to be awkward. You would have to either stand beside the toilet (impossible in many bathrooms) or straddle the bowl.

You would be washing your hands with cold water (unless you fill your toilet tanks with hot water).

You probably would have to wash your hands without soap because adding soap to the toilet tank could cause problems.

Has anyone run across one of these?

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

You would be washing your hands with cold water (unless you fill your toilet tanks with hot water).

Actually, I do fill my tank with warm water during the summer months to reduce sweating. I have a little mixing valve in the basement that lets me use cold only in the winter and warm in the summer.

When you think about it, it makes absolutely zero sense that we use perfectly good potable water to flush our waste into the sewer system. If it were legal to do so, I'd pipe up a separate system to use non-potable water from my stream for the toilets.

Except then I wouldn't be able to flush in February. Darn, back to the drawing board.

You could use the top as a urinal or spittoon!

Bet this would go great with "Seinfields" Kramer using the shower disposal to make salad idea.

Originally Posted by Buist Langley

You could use the top as a urinal

That was my thought ... I can just see that being used by guys 'just trying to see if they can' ... definitely NOT someplace *I* would want to wash my hands ...

Looks a bit like a drinking fountain. I'll pass.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

..... You would be washing your hands with cold water (unless you fill your toilet tanks with hot water). ..... Has anyone run across one of these?

It is very common in Japan, I use a similar one in a Tokyo apartment. They do provide warm water for hand-wash and ass-wash.

In some of the advertising for SinkPositive I read one of the advantages was the toilet tank sink could serve as the only sink in a tiny bathroom. That might be OK if the only time you needed to use the sink was after using the toilet. Other times you would have to flush the toilet (even if you did not use the toilet) just so you could use the sink.

And I can't see myself leaning over the toilet to brush my teeth. No thanks!

I hope that u relize that the water to your toilet is the same that u use in your kitchen. Looks like a great idea. As far as having to flush every time u use the sink I do not believe so,, the tank already has an overflow built in that would satisfy that and as far as soap goes that would serve another job purpose of keeping the toilet clean. I assume when u wash your hands in your sink now, u use soap and when u drain your sink it goes to the same place as your t--ds go so I see no problem, wish i had six for my toilets.

I don't think you see the problem with the used sink water waiting in the tank for the next flush.... Could be hours...
Doing this repeatedly will cause a nasty stink... (just smell the overflow on your lav...)

In this video you will see how a Japanese toilet sink works. It is the one I used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpsar1iQ_64

Hello...anyone home?
Was I the only one to notice the sink drains to the bowl, not the tank? And that this is fresh potable water intended to fill the waste bowl? There is no soapy mess in the tank, take a (closer) look.
There has been so many studies done to prove warm water does nothing to improve hand washing resluts, it's a matter of clean water and soap. I think the idea of not having to touch faucets is why the Japanese were so far ahead of us with this concept. But, if reckless consumption is what you prefer, this is probably not for you, anyway.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

Was I the only one to notice the sink drains to the bowl, not the tank? And that this is fresh potable water intended to fill the waste bowl? There is no soapy mess in the tank, take a (closer) look.

No, Brown. When you push the handle, the tank water flush the toilet bowl first; and the water come from the faucet at the same time for hand wash, then fill up the tank and stop. Please see this YouTube video.
Yes, properly no soapy mess in the tank, because.... if you wash hand fast, the soap water already gone with the flushing. Then fill up the tank with fresh water.

Originally Posted by Daniel Leung

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then fill up the tank and stop. .

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Not if it's Installed Properly.
* see OP link FAQ/ Specs
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That is correct, "if it is installed properly". The drain from the sink goes into the overflow pipe, draining the used water directly to the bowl. It is funny how many people think they understand the toilet and misunderstand this concept. The used water drains through the tank into the overflow pipe, not touching the tank's potable water. It's really rather simple and effective.

so if that is the case, then you are not really saving any water? if it goes directly to bowl then that is no different from washing your hands in a sink, the drain water both go to the same place, the sewer

Actually there is quite a bit of water savings if you can wash your hands and reuse that water to refill the bowl. There is no point in filling up the bowl with potable water when you can use this source of gray water. Then there is no need to go to the sink and use more water. Plus, if the sink detects leaks, then the water savings is even greater. Listen to hear if the toilet is still filling up when you leave your bathroom next time. The bowl gets way more water than it needs, it's crazy.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

Actually there is quite a bit of water savings if you can wash your hands and reuse that water to refill the bowl. There is no point in filling up the bowl with potable water when you can use this source of gray water.

CD,

Can you explain to me how draining water from the sink into the toilet bowl saves any water? Correct me if I am wrong but water added to the toilet bowl does not reduce the amount of water needed from the tank for the next flush. This water will simply end up going down the drain albeit via a different route - instead of going down a normal sink drain the water will go down the toilet drain. I see no water savings. Help me see how this saves a drop of water.

Bruce, maybe there is some confusion on which sink I am speaking of when I say, "the water from the sink drains to the bowl". The SinkPositive sink sits on top of the tank and does nothing to change the way a toilet flushes. All it does is redirect the bowl refill supply to a small basin where you can use the water before it drains to the bowl. It allows one to gain access to the fresh water before it is used to fill the waste bowl. The water is running as soon as you flush the toilet and stops when the float in the tank shuts off the fill valve. So, in having access to the fresh water, one does not go to the bathroom lavratory sink to use more water. A good source of reducing water usage in the water closet in the pursuit of LEED points, too.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

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The water is running as soon as you flush the toilet and stops when the float in the tank shuts off the fill valve..

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Actually this device uses More Water Per Flush.
* even taking hand washing into account.

The Tank will be Refilled to the Flush Height as Excess Water is Redirected into the bowl and will continue to Run ( into the Bowl and down the Waste Pipe ) until the Tank is Replenished.
* thus a Novelty Item .
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It gets worse:

Originally Posted by fritzkelly

well, you take a crap and wash your hands in the water flowing into the toilet tank . . .

Originally Posted by CD Brown

. . . "the water from the sink drains to the bowl". . .

This is how things get confused. Does the water drain to the tank or the bowl? (What I call the tank is the vessel that sits above the bowl and stores water used to flush the toilet. What I call the bowl is the receptacle into which human waste is deposited.)

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

. Does the water drain to the tank or the bowl? .)

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....
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Bruce,

The Real Question is Does This Device Violate The 1.6 Gal. Federal Limit per Use ?
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I am amazed at the amount of commenter’s on this subject are those naïve enough to believe that this product actually and scientifically can save water? In Japan where it is supposedly highly used and regarded, real estate is something like thousands of dollars/ sq. foot so space for a full size bathroom would be prohibited, thus the toilet that seconds for a sink.
To those who think they know how a toilet bowl works that is good, but in actuality the water that is in the tank, (herein known as the upper part) when the flapper in the upper part is opened by the flush handle, the water in the tank around 1.6 gallons to 3.2, depending on age, suddenly drops through an almost three inch hole to the inside of the bowl ( herein known as the lower part) the water then goes out through the siphon hole which is only around a one inch hole, this creates a vacuum which helps to pull out the deposited debris in the bowl through to the toilet drain which is usually a 3-4 inch hole to the sewer.
The water in the bowl came from a previous flush when the tank was being emptied until the flapper in the tank automatically shuts off the flow to the bowl. When the water level in the tank gets back up to the full level the float shuts it off, the bowl and the tank are now primed and ready for the next deposit left in the bowl to be carried away to the sewer. Adding more water in the bowl just goes down the drain when it reaches the top of the internal trap made into the bowl
Now if, in some peoples mine believe that the water from the sink at the top of the tank can serve this purpose when you wash your hands you better remember, that the water in the bowl also serves as the trap to keep out the sewer gases from your sewer, excess water in the bowl simply goes to the sewer drain.
Now and only then, if the sink on top happened to drain into the tank, then and only then could you be saving water which would fill the tank quicker by not having to add as much fresh drinking water back into the tank for the next round of deposits. The water from washing your hands is called gray water and while not necessarily raw sewage, just remember why you should wash your hands after you relieve yourself. This is due to the bacteria in human waste that you may have left on your hand from wiping, some countries do not use toilet paper, or only maybe one sheet, it cost too much?
Do you know that you can drink your own urine, it is not toxic to you, but to some one else it is toxic. Just use plain bleach to wash your hands now that would be doing two things at once, killing germs on your hands and keeping your bowl sanitized. Would that be saving energy?

Billy, take a look at that drawing you attached and take a look in the back of a toilet to see how the fill and flush valves work. The SinkPositive sink has no impact on how much water is needed for a toilet to complete it's fill cycle. Just a simple redirection of the bowl refill supply tube before it is returned to its normal path down the overflow pipe. If you put a SinkPositive sink on a 1.5 gpf toilet, it will remain a 1.5 gpf toilet. It is so simple it is confusing you.

Cobra,
Did you forget about the bowl refill supply?

Originally Posted by CD Brown

Billy, take a look at that drawing you attached and take a look in the back of a toilet to see how the fill and flush valves work. The SinkPositive sink has no impact on how much water is needed for a toilet to complete it's fill cycle. Just a simple redirection of the bowl refill supply tube before it is returned to its normal path down the overflow pipe. If you put a SinkPositive sink on a 1.5 gpf toilet, it will remain a 1.5 gpf toilet. It is so simple it is confusing you.

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Yep,

One of Us is Simple.

Or Has a Financial Interest at Stake.
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After you flush your toilet, is there water trickling into the bowl during the refill cycle? and does it run until the tank is filled? think about it. The toilet is a confusing device because it seems to simple yet it is really a complex series of fundamental physics at work. It has to be respected because of its function of health and safety codes required to exist in our homes and work places. I do work with elementary schools on water conservation and this is one of the most difficult concepts to communicate.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

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After you flush your toilet, is there water trickling into the bowl during the refill cycle?

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Yes it does and The Excess Water Capacity in the bowl flows over the Trap and down the waste drain. ( dump any amount of water into the bowl over it's fill capacity and it is Wasted Water. )

think about it.

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OK
* you as Well?

The toilet is a confusing device because it seems to simple yet it is really a complex series of fundamental physics at work.

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If You Over Fill The Bowl and The Excess is Forced Down The Waste Drain You Are Not Saving Water.
* How Complex is That ?.
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Hmmm, where to begin with this. You are correct about the bowl being a p-trap and holding water only to a certain level. Which brings up the question of why does so much water "trickle" into the bowl during the refill cycle? With or without an added sink device to the tank, that water flows every time you flush.
The reason the bowl receives so much water, beyond it's capacity, is because the bowl refill water is regulated by the float in the tank. The bowl has no way of telling the valve it is full. Also, since the bowl is emptied by the siphon of the flush, the remaining level of water in the bowl (post flush) is a variable, depending upon what was flushed, air pressure in the sewer system and in your home. Therefore, the bowl refill supply is geared to make sure the bowl is refilled since its being refilled is a serious health and safety concern.
Utilizing the bowl refill supply is only common sense, as you pointed out, there is no reason to (over) fill the bowl with potable water.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

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You are correct about the bowl being a p-trap and holding water only to a certain level. Which brings up the question of why does so much water "trickle" into the bowl during the refill cycle? With or without an added sink device to the tank, that water flows every time you flush.

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Not if Your Toilet is working Properly as "the Trickle " Stops when the Flapper Drops.
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The reason the bowl receives so much water, beyond it's capacity, is because the bowl refill water is regulated by the float in the tank.

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Only if The Device You Invented is Dumping Excess Water into the Bowl until the Float Shuts off the Water Flow.
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The bowl has no way of telling the valve it is full.

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Or to tell your device to shutoff to eliminate the overfill.
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Therefore, the bowl refill supply is geared to make sure the bowl is refilled since its being refilled is a serious health and safety concern.

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And How would your device Improve this Process?
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Utilizing the bowl refill supply is only common sense, as you pointed out, there is no reason to (over) fill the bowl with potable water.

Exactley,

If the device was filling the tank ( gray water) then You Save Water.
If the device is Installed as instructed " drains to the bowl " then it uses more water because it Overfills the bowl.
*" no reason to (over) fill the bowl."
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This Contraption May Serve a Purpose such as in Very confined spaces.
* it However Does Not Save Water, no matter how much you Wish It Would.
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Looking at the drawing, it could have a potential to save a small amount of water. There is more than a trickle going into the tank during the refill. If you ever turned the water on without the tube being secured in the overflow pipe correctly, there is a good squirt coming out. The drawing could be a little confusing because it is showing the flapper in the open position during the operation of the sink. After the tank is drained per the flapper operation the flapper closes and the float valve the majority of water is going into the tank with the remainder going into the bowl. What actually happens when the flapper closes it also stops the vacuum flow which allows a certain amount of water to remain in the bowl, enough to fill the internal trap made in the toilet.
Be clear, you do not have a trap where the flow goes into the sewer line. The remainder is filled with the 1/4” line that goes into the overflow pipe in the tank. If you restrict that pipe at the sink with an aerator and you will surely need one it “could” affect the operation of the toilet.
During my travels through Europe, Asia, Mexico and South America I noticed foreign countries for the most part are not as sanitary or as compliant with safe sanitary practices as the US, so this design made for their own people simply will not go well in the US. At first a novelty people will try any thing once. Most people like to see there toilet as clean as possible so the still filthy water in the bowl, is clear so what do you do with the dirty hand washing water in the bowl. I guess most people will have to flush again so the bowl is at least clean looking. What amount of water is that going to save? And worst than that are we going to just have a hole in the floor lets just say at our rest areas so people can just stand and pee or squat and poop in the hole and then you don’t even have to flush. Now that really does save water but do you want that too?

Ok, let's try this again. Here's a few of the main points to understand:
1) the SinkPositive sink does not make a toilet more efficeint. It only saves water by utilizing a source of potable water to clean your hands so as not to go to the lavatory sink for additonal water.

2) after the flapper closes, the fill valve directs new water to fill both the tank and bowl with separate supply sources from the valve. The tank gets its water from the bottom of the fill valve and the bowl gets its supply from a small tube called the bowl refill supply tube which sends water to the bowl via the overflow pipe. Both of these refill supply sources are open and running until the float raises and closes the valve. At that point, the tank and bowl are ready for the next use.

3) in this configuration, the bowl's refill supply runs for as long as it takes for the float to rise. In that amount of time, the bowl often times receives 2-3 times the amount of water it needs to form the air seal needed between the sewer system and your home. This can be seen as the water trickling into the bowl during the refill, after the flapper has dropped.

4) the water in the bowl is already classified as waste water because it is in direct contact with the sewer system. The tank is classified as potable and a source of drinking water in the case of an emergency.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

. The tank is classified as potable and a source of drinking water in the case of an emergency.

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No Thanks!
* attachment is one of the Cleaner Tanks I've seen.
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that one must not have been in use too long Billy, but looking at the bowl it looks like they would not mind if dirty water from hand washing set in it. As far as potable water in the tank could be used for drinking it may be ok if boiled? But if some one had been using tydee bowl or some of the other bowl sanitizers with chorline or other chemicals I believe the diarea you would get afterwards may not be worth the chance.

I guess you'd have had to live in California or some other earthquake prone region to understand that one about the tank being an emergency supply of potable water.

There is a reason for the code's requirement of a 1" air gap.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

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I guess you'd have had to live in California or some other earthquake prone region to understand that one about the tank being an emergency supply of potable water.

There is a reason for the code's requirement of a 1" air gap.

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Carl,

You came here to defend a questionable product ( that you copied from some overseas Vacation ).

Spout how everyone but you does not understand how a toilet functions and flip, flop on the perceived ( by you ) benefits of a purely Novelty After Market Toilet Lid that more than likely Violates The National Energy Act ( H. R. 776) that limits a Toilet to 1.6 Gal. Per Flush.

Now We don't understand the need for Emergency Water Supply unless you live in California or some other Earth Quake prone Region.
1812 New Madrid earthquake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe You can Educate the folks along the Gulf Coast, Flood and Tornado Victims along with the Other Great Unwashed the Need for Potable Water ( on that's right they aren't in a Earthquake Zone. ) and probably have plenty of Beer on Hand.

Maybe You Can Teach us all Building Codes as we are too confounded by the need for potable water and the functions, benefits of Indoor Pluming.
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I see these all the time. Generally, they're part of a total gray-water reclamation system. It is said that you can actually save 1/3 of your water use by reclaiming gray water to flush toilets. See Brac Systems - Grey Water Recycling

The tank sink is actually diverting the fresh supply to a fountain, and your used water drains into the tank. The flow stops when the tank float stops the valve.

I have heard of people using the sink as a toilet, but never heard of anyone using the toilet as a sink.

Originally Posted by CD Brown

That is correct, "if it is installed properly". The drain from the sink goes into the overflow pipe, draining the used water directly to the bowl.

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Originally Posted by Michael Schirmer

I see these all the time. Generally, they're part of a total gray-water reclamation system. It is said that you can actually save 1/3 of your water use by reclaiming gray water to flush toilets. See Brac Systems - Grey Water Recycling

The tank sink is actually diverting the fresh supply to a fountain, and your used water drains into the tank. The flow stops when the tank float stops the valve.

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Not The SinkPostive .
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