Thread: Galvanized pipe

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

AD: to refresh your memory,

This is one of your original posts on the subject. You don't happen to mention improper installation methods at all.

So what is it, in your opinion? A bad product or is it only bad if improperly installed?

KR: You do not need to reiterate my posts for me. Memorize them for your own edification, if you like.

At the risk of repeating myself again and again and again for the lowest common denominator on this forum, I did not state at any time that the product is inherently defective. No matter how you try to stretch the facts to fit your ill-conceived opinion, you simply cannot illustrate this. I know it is irritating for you to have put yourself in this position, and yet, there you are.

Now to your current (and cloying) questions: The wording of the question is nebulous. I am not sure what you mean by "bad". If by that term you mean inherently defective, then I have already stated that the jury in my mind is out. That means I have not made that decision yet. If by "bad" you mean evil or sinful, I do not believe in those concepts, and so the answer would be no.

If by "bad" you mean not achieving an adequate standard, I would have to agree. It is my personal and professional opinion that the piping and its manufacturer's installation instructions are inseparable. Since I deem the instructions to be inadequate, I necessarily believe the piping to be so.

If you mean by "bad" injurious in effect or detrimental, then under certain circumstances I would agree. I have seen both persons and property damaged by the installation of this product in strict accordance with its manufacturer's installation instructions.

This product has only been on the market for about 10 years. That is a relative newcomer for building materials. The manufacturers, in my opinion, are not addressing some of the issues they need to be addressing to insure the safe installation of this dubiously safe product. In my opinion it is glorified flexible appliance connector material.

As for CSST's performance during a lightning strike, I submit this for your perusal:

ST: Weak points include, but are not limited to:

(1) Lack of bonding at the manifold.

(2) Inadequate support of piping in attics and crawl spaces.

(3) Installing the piping in harm's way. This includes where it can be struck by nails and other fasteners, laid across attic service flooring, et al.

(4) Inadequate support of shut-off valves.

And the above is for new construction only. In remodeling the problems increase exponentially. I have yet to see a gas line properly installed with striker plates where they are needed in an existing home. Even the builders are guilty of this. The scenario: the homeowner buys an inventory (completed) house which does not have a gas outlet for a gas cooktop in the kitchen. The plumber installs one using CSST, but does not install striker plates where the tubing enters the top plate or passes through fireblocks.

I understand your points. But my question is; if you inspected... lets say 10 houses plumbed with csst, how many of the 10 would you expect to find at least one installation flaw.

My point is, even if 90% of a particular installation is protected, taking Murphy's Law into consideration, one or two unprotected areas are a gamble.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

I understand your points. But my question is; if you inspected... lets say 10 houses plumbed with csst, how many of the 10 would you expect to find at least one installation flaw.

My point is, even if 90% of a particular installation is protected, taking Murphy's Law into consideration, one or two unprotected areas are a gamble.

ST: 90% of the homes I inspect - both new and old - have a minimum of two of the issues I listed.

Did anyone answer "historically speaking" when galvanized pipe was introduced in residential construction?

Yes John, more or less. The beginning posts addressed it... more or less.

In my opinion the house is plumbed with hubbed cast iron, galvanized, and lead.

Regarding the CSST, I would like to know about the workmanship some of the other fellows come accross. Especially work that is done "by others."

Is Aaron the only one finding these faults?

Originally Posted by imported_John Smith

Did anyone answer "historically speaking" when galvanized pipe was introduced in residential construction?

IJS: Yes, it was answered early on before the jackals high-jacked the thread:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tml#post117757

Is Aaron the only one finding these faults?

ST: The better question might be, is anyone else even looking for these issues?

Steven it's been used here more then a decade and never heard of a problem with it. Pre-drywall Inspections I have noted on several occasions about protection in areas and proper support along it's length. But this is typical of most components of a home, people goof up while installing and that's why we have a job.
My pet peeve would be the installation to a gas pack unit on the exterior of a home. The run is susceptible to damage.

A.D do you not like appliance connectors also? You have your right to your opinion as we all have something we don't like. But quit twisting as most of us do when we get backed in a corner and say "uncle".

Oh by the way we used 16-D nails to support bundles of shingles in rows horizontally across the roof. The Mexicans would drive them in when done but I was cheap and pulled them. Ahhh to be young again!

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

A.D ...say "uncle".

uh-oh, now you did it!

Good article AD, thanks for posting it. I did not find a date of the paper, do you know when it was produced? I did not see any reference to the newer bonding requirements or reference to the lightening zone settlement so I am guessing the paper may have been prior to or concurrent with the litigation.

Although I am not quite as entrenched on the "CSST is crap" position as you, I do make mention of the past litigation and bonding issues and rarely see an installation that complies with the instructions on bonding, support, or bending circumference and can frequently be heard to utter "aw crap" upon observation of the yellow snakes in the attic.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

KR: You do not need to reiterate my posts for me. Memorize them for your own edification, if you like. Not likely. Most of the time it doesn't seem like you have any clue what you're talking about. Actually seems like you probably went to law school and never once was involved in the building of a house.

At the risk of repeating myself again and again and again for the lowest common denominator on this forum, I did not state at any time that the product is inherently defective. No matter how you try to stretch the facts to fit your ill-conceived opinion, you simply cannot illustrate this. I know it is irritating for you to have put yourself in this position, and yet, there you are. So please tell me and everyone else in plain English what you mean by

Do I think CSST is an inherently defective product like barrier EIFS, residential aluminum wiring, Federal Pacific Electric Stab Lok panels/breakers, et al? The jury is still out, as far as I am concerned. Would I have the product installed in my own house: hell no.

Why wouldn't you have it in your house if you do not believe it's defective?

Instead of all the double talk how about some straight forward answers.

I think this this thread has been lead away from galvanized pipe.
Nice car Charles !!!
See.

A.D do you not like appliance connectors also?

MS: I like appliance connectors just fine, as long as they are installed properly. That is about 2/3 of the time.

You have your right to your opinion as we all have something we don't like.

MS: Oh, really?

But quit twisting as most of us do when we get backed in a corner and say "uncle".

MS: I never use the word.

Oh by the way we used 16-D nails to support bundles of shingles in rows horizontally across the roof. The Mexicans would drive them in when done but I was cheap and pulled them.

MS: Yep, and to attach toeboards (temporary cleats), and to hold air hoses, et al.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Good article AD, thanks for posting it. I did not find a date of the paper, do you know when it was produced? I did not see any reference to the newer bonding requirements or reference to the lightening zone settlement so I am guessing the paper may have been prior to or concurrent with the litigation.

Although I am not quite as entrenched on the "CSST is crap" position as you, I do make mention of the past litigation and bonding issues and rarely see an installation that complies with the instructions on bonding, support, or bending circumference and can frequently be heard to utter "aw crap" upon observation of the yellow snakes in the attic.

JL: Finally, an honest man, or at least one who is actually informed on the subject and looking for the usual problems.

It occurred to me yesterday that perhaps the reason many seem not be informed about the CSST lightning issue might be that lightning strike patterns are different in all parts of the country. I appears that the Left-Coasters, Westerners, and Yankees may not know much about lightning. Must be a Gulf Coast States thing . . .

Google Image Result for http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/images/map.jpg

We get plenty of lighting. Summer before last my 30' steel pole in the front yard was hit. Took out all my gfci outlets, big screen tv, small tv, and phones. Pissed me off that the manufactures did not factor in lighting strikes. ..........sorry AD.........just fanning the flames. ;-)

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

You could do that method also,but I often find scratching the surface much more convieniet.

The more you can do with out specialty tools , the better.

Besides , the magnet would stick to both copper and steel.(so scratch away).
Magnet may not be in your pocket , but your screwdriver or keys might be.

Magnet stick to copper? Boy, all those physics classes I suffered through just got thrown out the window or maybe you were thinking cast iron?

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

Magnet stick to copper? Boy, all those physics classes I suffered through just got thrown out the window or maybe you were thinking cast iron?

SB: Think: duct tape magnet . . .

Oh by the way we used 16-D nails to support bundles of shingles in rows horizontally across the roof. The Mexicans would drive them in when done but I was cheap and pulled them.


MS: Yep, and to attach toeboards (temporary cleats), and to hold air hoses, et al.

You're correct, many roofers do this. And it's wrong unless their nailing to the rafter / truss.

Ken are things that bad in your area that you are giving $100.00 off a home Inspection or free radon ?
I hope nobody in my area is beating down prices because they where to low from the get go.

Csst has been usde in my area for aroud 10 yrs. Since i do few progress inspecitons what i see is usually in the basemet. Most of the installs are correct EXCEPT for the bonding, But the bonding requirments from some manaf. have been updated just late last year. See attached

I'm not sure when bonding went into affect in our area, 08 I believe, but, I add it as a safety recommendation to all that don't have it, and explain why.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JL: Finally, an honest man, or at least one who is actually informed on the subject and looking for the usual problems.

It occurred to me yesterday that perhaps the reason many seem not be informed about the CSST lightning issue might be that lightning strike patterns are different in all parts of the country. I appears that the Left-Coasters, Westerners, and Yankees may not know much about lightning. Must be a Gulf Coast States thing . . .

Google Image Result for http://www.weather.gov/os/lightning/images/map.jpg

Even the settlement from the CSST litigation was based on lightening strike zones. The more likely you were to get hit, the more money they would pay to help get it bonded.
I still wonder what effect the more robust bonding has had on lightening strike damage.
One other likely issue that would explain some of the differences in the lightening strike issues across the country is that houses with basements likely don't have copious amounts of CSST stuck up in the attic 30' in the air attached to appliances with metal b-vent lightening rods. Seems that if you had a basement and high efficiency heating appliances with Plastic vents hidden therein that the likelihood of lightening strike damage would be greatly reduced.

One other likely issue that would explain some of the differences in the lightening strike issues across the country is that houses with basements likely don't have copious amounts of CSST stuck up in the attic 30' in the air attached to appliances with metal b-vent lightening rods. Seems that if you had a basement and high efficiency heating appliances with Plastic vents hidden therein that the likelihood of lightening strike damage would be greatly reduced.

JL: Good points.

Most CSST around here is not for the furnance, it is for the Fireplace.

This puts it in the chase with b vent many times. As of present, I know of no acutal issues, fire or leaks, in the KC area from lightning.

Bonding is not enforced by any AHJ in the KC area that I am aware of,

I have had a standard bonding statement for 8-10 yrs,that discusses bonding the entire systems as needed.

Few inspectors (both HI and City) here understand or discusess this.

Talk to a local fire marshal if you get a chance since no one but the fire department will every see the results of a failure of CSST as a result of lightening strikes and they will only see it if they specifically are looking for it in the ashes.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

You could do that method also,but I often find scratching the surface much more convieniet.

The more you can do with out specialty tools , the better.

Besides , the magnet would stick to both copper and steel.(so scratch away).
Magnet may not be in your pocket , but your screwdriver or keys might be.

Excuse Me? What school you went? Magnets DO NOT stick to copper. Only iron/steel.
Dana

I believe he went to a magnet school You guy's will whip up on a person in a minute I swear.........

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Ken are things that bad in your area that you are giving $100.00 off a home Inspection or free radon ?
I hope nobody in my area is beating down prices because they where to low from the get go.

Bad in my area? I don't know about the other companies but it's Monday night, I did two inspections today and I'm booked solid through Saturday.

We're a national company. The company does this promotion every winter. It's nice because the inspectors get paid as if the client paid the full amount. Our radon technician is also paid their full amount. It's a great promotion as we get a ton of new referring agents with this offer and it gives more money to the inspectors in the slower winter months. Pretty much all of the promotions you'll see on our local website are national promotions which don't affect what the inspectors make.

But let's not hijack this thread any more than it already has been. Open a new one of send me a pm if you'd like to know more.