Thread: Odd water heater vent

Does anyone recognize this? It's for a 15 year old, 75 gallon propane water heater. It feels like a rubber coated metal and is nothing I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Does anyone recognize this? It's for a 15 year old, 75 gallon propane water heater. It feels like a rubber coated metal and is nothing I've ever seen.

Nothing I have ever seen before. Is that an induced draft? No draft hood.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Nothing I have ever seen before.

Same here.

Oh Crap! No jumper!

Thanks guys... yep, induced draft

Looks like corrugated foundation drain pipe. Sure doesn't look supported either. Wonder if its a black vinyl version of that plastic with metal spiral thin stuff they sell (not code compliant) for dryer connectors/vent?

Never seen anything like that used on a water heater!

Must go directly to the drain field.

Old direct vent. If you look closely somewhere on the vent or connectors you should see installation information. If I remember correctly the vents were supplied with the water heater or available as a kit from Rheem.

From further description might be HDAP all purpose thermoplastic rubber hose or medium duty fume control duct. Still not code compliant for this.

If induced draft/DV where is the fan unit for this 15 yrs old 75 gal propane water heater? 15 yrs old might be of the era of recalled vent connections Cat I & Cat. II, claims period now ended (last October or around that time IIRC).

Originally "approved" and "listed", high temperature plastic vent & connectors were promoted as being a valid substitution (as they were initially "rated" for 480 degrees F) replacement for b-vent for horizontal through the wall gas venting, not just for mid-efficiency furnaces, but boilers and storage type gas water heaters with slightly increased efficiency (vintage late 80s through 92-94 in Canada and through early 98 in US). Later found to be hazardous as connections, pipe seams, etc. leak. HTPV connectors also not safe. Systems usually black or gray, both "generations" not safe, several interim "fixes" also not safe. First "generation" vent systems often supplied by manufacturer with the gas fired appliance, later ones separate. Early "fixes" included inserting 2 ft of stainless as a vent connector, still not fixed or safe. Some included adding an exterior (near termination) fan - still didn't address leaks. Ontario Canada identified these problems around 94 ish. CPSC not until 98 and made a program acknowledging only their use on furnaces - some mfg's of boilers acknowledged issue, in US nothing done regarding use on storage type water heaters outside of a few tech note bulletins to repair/replace (at a labor cost) as "needed" when problems complained of during the "limited warranty" period. Ultravent, Sel-vent, Selkirk, Plexco, Plexvent, Plex-vent, Plexvent II, Spirolite, UltraTemp, and Company names GE, Hart & Cooley (ultravent), Chevron, Chevron Chemical (Plexvent, Plexvent II), Eljer Industries later purchased by Zim (Sel-vent, Selkirk, Selkirk Metalbestos, Selvent) are company names and product names associated with recall programs, class action lawsuits, and some settlements in US and Canada pertaining to HTPV used on Gas fired (NG and LP) furnaces, boilers and water heaters.

It looks to be something not right, regardless.

What information is on the rating plate?

Novaflex HDAP - All Purpose Thermoplastic Hose - PVC Urethane and Thermal Plastic Hose - Nova Flex ?

U-Lok 601 - Medium Duty Fume Control - Nova Flex ?

HG: Where do you find these things, anyway?

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

If induced draft/DV where is the fan unit for this 15 yrs old 75 gal propane water heater?

It's inside the top of the water heater housing.

From further description might be HDAP all purpose thermoplastic rubber hose or medium duty fume control duct. Still not code compliant for this.

In this case code would defer to the manufacturers installation instructions.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

It's inside the top of the water heater housing.



In this case code would defer to the manufacturers installation instructions.

Not when recalled, court settlements/findings, and/or de-listed - approvals (AGA) revoked, if HTPV, which was originally touted as a safe alternative for B-venting and supposedly rated for 480 degrees F (as b-vent) for horizontal venting but later found to be defective and not safe for that purpose!

You'd have a hard time getting a mfg to back up Cat I or II Mid-efficiency appliance with HTPV of that vintage. Connector doesn't look to be appliance mfg supplied of that vintage (15 years old).

Rating plate info needed.



AD:
Defective High Temperature Plastic Vent(HTPV)

CPSC, Manufacturers Announce Changes to 1998 Recall Program to Replace Dangerous Home Heating Vent Pipes

[GE Resin Ultratemp. was AGA certified.

Originally boiler, WH and furnace mfg's often supplied the vent with the heater and the connector, later they did not.

From an older notice from a NE Gas Utility:

Check Plastic Pipe Venting Systems

Homeowners should be aware that plastic pipe venting systems connected to some natural gas and propane furnaces, boilers and water heaters need to be inspected periodically in order to avoid potential safety hazards. In certain situations, pipes may crack or separate at the fittings, causing harmful fumes to enter the home. Please pay attention to the following details, which may affect you:

- If the vent on your furnace, boiler or water heater is plastic and was installed after 1987.

- If one of these product names appears on plastic vent pipe: Ultravent, Plex-Vent or Sel-Vent.

- If the plastic vent pipe says "HTPV" or "High-Temperature Plastic Vent Pipe."

If you suspect that your plastic pipe venting system may need to be inspected or replaced, contact a licensed heating contractor.

Additional information regarding hazards associated with these systems is available by contacting the contractor who installed your system or the following manufacturer's help lines:

Ultravent - (800) 758-3688
Plex-Vent- (800) 758-3688
Sel-Vent - (800) 848-2149

Numbers aren't good anymore.

I believe the submission for claims deadline in US was May of last year, and remediation deadlines was sometime last October. IIRC at least one of the companies withdrew from the program, and one was not involved due to bk's and changes in ownership, and addiitional bankruptcies.

HG; This vent is not HTPV. HTPV is rigid plastic pipe that looks similar to ABS and PVC. Recall Program to Replace Vent Pipes on Home Heating Systems

Model # of the water heater would be beneficial.

Bradford White had 2 patents around that time (95-ish), one proposed using EDPM or polymeric plastic wire reinforced for vent connector in lieu of HTPV, ABS, CPVC or PVC, TTW both using a blower to mix room air to lower temperature of exhaust. The other proposed using EDPM pleated reinforced wire vent connector to TTW.

US Patent Nos.
5199385 (looks most promising as a "fit" to photo with "collector box" and fan motor above tank and below "lid" for mixing room air with combustion products to reduce temperature but maintain above dew point exhaust) and 4867106 which proposed non-standard vent connectors for lower exhaust temperatures by mixing room air.

Perhaps its a 1995 vintage Bradford White (or subsidiary) 5,199,385 design. Either way polymeric pleated plastic wire reinforced vent connectors (such as those used for dryers) should not be relied upon.

HG: Good info. Thanks.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Either way polymeric pleated plastic wire reinforced vent connectors (such as those used for dryers) (these are not the same as dryer vents, they are not thin vinyl)should not be relied upon.

Why?


Great research by the way.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

(these are not the same as dryer vents, they are not thin vinyl)
Why?

Great research by the way.

KR:

I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your comments out of a quote box quoting me.

I don't know where you devine this from, unless the original poster is communicating to you directly.

Obviously you didn't read the entire patent submission I attached (pdf) nor reviewed the other patent number.

Page 10 of 12, second column (right), beginning with the end of line 28 reads as follows (bold, underlining, and blue for emphasis - are mine):

This predetermined temperature is sufficiently low so that exhaust line 36 can be manufactured from low temperature materials such as CPVC, PVC, EDPM or ABS pipe or polymeric pleated and wire reinforced vent pipe typically used with residential clothes dryers, for example. Maintining the temperature at or below a certain temperature prevents troublesome or harmful condensation from forming in the exhaust line 36 by careful metering of interior space air into collector box 32.

I wouldn't recommend the use of polymeric pleated and wire reinforced vent pipe or as a connector to ever be used with a residential clothes dryer, foil either for that matter. Most definately not for a horizontal vent connector TTW for a gas fired water heater.

ADM: Yr thanks are appreciated.

HG, again this is not the same material as a vinyl dryer vent. I've seen the picture from the original poster and I've seen this vent material at least 20 times.

You, by your own admission, have never seen this before. As I've previously stated, it was supplied by the water heater manufacturer. If you have information as to why it should not be used, share it. But, don't simply call it the same as a dryer vent therefore shouldn't be used.

Black flexible rubber-like gas water heater vent - The Inspector's Journal Forums

Please don't attribute something to me that I haven't said or posted.

What I said was I have not seen anything like this actually USED on a WATER HEATER.

I did NOT state that was what it was ONLY that was designed to be used in a particular bradford white patent submission, and not that it was approved to be used.

You also attributed the water heater to a different manufacturer.

MF has NOT shared the rating plate information nor manufacturer information.

Again, unless you are devining this from another source, I prefer to WAIT. I also indicated two similar materials which HAVE been used in those "iffy" late 80s and early 90s pre-power vent not quite sufficiently induced draft, horizontal TTW vented mid temperature Some where between Cat II, & Cat III Water Heaters, not code compliant.

Without the rating plate information we have no way to know what was or was not/is or is not. There were loads of silent recall type tech bulletins on many WHs of the vintage and size (75 gal storage type NG & Propane) MF speaks of both residential and commercial.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Looks like corrugated foundation drain pipe. Sure doesn't look supported either. Wonder if its a black vinyl version of that plastic with metal spiral thin stuff they sell (not code compliant) for dryer connectors/vent?

Never seen anything like that used on a water heater!

You've never seen it before and stated it looked like drain tile.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Originally "approved" and "listed", high temperature plastic vent & connectors were promoted as being a valid substitution (as they were initially "rated" for 480 degrees F) replacement for b-vent for horizontal through the wall gas venting, not just for mid-efficiency furnaces, but boilers and storage type gas water heaters with slightly increased efficiency (vintage late 80s through 92-94 in Canada and through early 98 in US). Later found to be hazardous as connections, pipe seams, etc. leak. HTPV connectors also not safe. Systems usually black or gray, both "generations" not safe, several interim "fixes" also not safe. First "generation" vent systems often supplied by manufacturer with the gas fired appliance, later ones separate. Early "fixes" included inserting 2 ft of stainless as a vent connector, still not fixed or safe. Some included adding an exterior (near termination) fan - still didn't address leaks. Ontario Canada identified these problems around 94 ish. CPSC not until 98 and made a program acknowledging only their use on furnaces - some mfg's of boilers acknowledged issue, in US nothing done regarding use on storage type water heaters outside of a few tech note bulletins to repair/replace (at a labor cost) as "needed" when problems complained of during the "limited warranty" period. Ultravent, Sel-vent, Selkirk, Plexco, Plexvent, Plex-vent, Plexvent II, Spirolite, UltraTemp, and Company names GE, Hart & Cooley (ultravent), Chevron, Chevron Chemical (Plexvent, Plexvent II), Eljer Industries later purchased by Zim (Sel-vent, Selkirk, Selkirk Metalbestos, Selvent) are company names and product names associated with recall programs, class action lawsuits, and some settlements in US and Canada pertaining to HTPV used on Gas fired (NG and LP) furnaces, boilers and water heaters.

You've incorrectly identified this as HTPV

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Bradford White had 2 patents around that time (95-ish), one proposed using EDPM or polymeric plastic wire reinforced for vent connector in lieu of HTPV, ABS, CPVC or PVC, TTW both using a blower to mix room air to lower temperature of exhaust. The other proposed using EDPM pleated reinforced wire vent connector to TTW.

US Patent Nos.
5199385 (looks most promising as a "fit" to photo with "collector box" and fan motor above tank and below "lid" for mixing room air with combustion products to reduce temperature but maintain above dew point exhaust) and 4867106 which proposed non-standard vent connectors for lower exhaust temperatures by mixing room air.

Perhaps its a 1995 vintage Bradford White (or subsidiary) 5,199,385 design. Either way polymeric pleated plastic wire reinforced vent connectors (such as those used for dryers) should not be relied upon.

You've found a patent from a water heater manufacturer, but then incorrectly identify this as the same material as vinyl dryer vents.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

You also attributed the water heater to a different manufacturer.

No, I said

If I remember correctly the vents were supplied with the water heater or available as a kit from Rheem.

Key words being "If I remember correctly". Do you really think that BW would patent something and another water heater manufacturer wouldn't come up with something similar? I've seen these on Rheems and would bet that the one in the original picture is a Rheem water heater.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Again, unless you are devining this from another source,...

The other source is my personal knowledge from actually seeing these in use numerous times.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

If induced draft/DV where is the fan unit for this 15 yrs old 75 gal propane water heater?

You apparently haven't seen this type of water heater before.

Tell you what, keep up the great work with the hours of google searching you're doing and I'll keep up with sharing my personal knowledge from actually doing thousands of inspections.

yawn, lots of selective rephrasing and out of context, starting off with your first incorrect categorization.

Not seen on a water heater.

Identified two other similar looking and as further described hose products used for med-temp.

You however claim to have seen this over what...30 times? okay genius, IDENTIFY THE PRODUCT and ITS CODE APPROVAL and/or listing.

Tapping onto a string on another forum, even the linked topic, no one identifies it - just a few claim it is code compliant. Of course the subject appliance being discussed on the first string is 2006 vintage.

1995 vintage nope. Lots of UNAPPROVED interim fixes TO THE HTPV recall was the point, including replacing connectors with other than stainless steel or bvent.

Nothing has been shared about the RATING of this water heater.

So tell us Mr. Rowe, as you think you know so much - IDENTIFY THE PRODUCT and the APPROVALS, Temperature ratings, support requirements, lengths, connectors, horizontal use, etc.

SHARE WITH ALL OF US DO TELL.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

MF has NOT shared the rating plate information nor manufacturer information.

Sorry guys.... I thought this thread died,

I didn't note the model # - It was a Rheem 75 gallon tank from the mid 1990s

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

So tell us Mr. Rowe, as you think you know so much - IDENTIFY THE PRODUCT and the APPROVALS, Temperature ratings, support requirements, lengths, connectors, horizontal use, etc.

I've already done that. As I stated previously this vent was supplied by the water heater manufacturer for use on that water heater. If you'd like to know ratings, support requirements etc I would suggest you contact the manufacturer of the water heater.

I'm not an HVAC technician or an engineer for Rheem, simply a home inspector. If I were a doctor I'd be a general practitioner, not a neurosurgeon. I don't need to know temperature ratings for a water heater vent which was used only for a short period of time 15 years ago. I do need to know if its ok or not ok.

This stuff looks like the hose mechanics use to control exhaust fumes. Our local fire suppression agency uses this material connected to an exhaust blower and the diesel engine exhaust outlet to remove the diesel fumes from the apparatus floor. The boot is designed so that it falls off as the apparatus leaves the apparatus bay. Eliminates that diesel cloud from the engine starting and accelerating out of the apparatus bay.

Originally Posted by Randy Aldering

This stuff looks like the hose mechanics use to control exhaust fumes. Our local fire suppression agency uses this material connected to an exhaust blower and the diesel engine exhaust outlet to remove the diesel fumes from the apparatus floor. The boot is designed so that it falls off as the apparatus leaves the apparatus bay. Eliminates that diesel cloud from the engine starting and accelerating out of the apparatus bay.

The vents I've seen before is much thicker than the standard thermal hose used for vehicle exhausts in a service bay.

Hi (all) &

Hey - Instead of guessing /speculating --> thiis is a "15" & should just be tossed (7-10 is the average Service Life, "up here" in Canada, anyway) & do it all over again correctly !

CHEERS !

we have a few of those "Bradford White" installed around here, not recommended at all
after a few years of use that vent falls apart leaking gasses into the house As far is i know you still can get parts for it but i would say if its 10years or older just replace the unit with a TTW2