Thread: Shower pan disaster

Gentlemen,

I have been reading some of your posts for the past few years and hope you can impart some of your wisdom my way. Sorry about the length but I need to get the right answer from you guys.

Essentially I would like to know what I did wrong during the inspection and afterwards so it does not happen again.

I did an inspection recently. Built-up tiled shower pan in the middle of the house. Floating laminate flooring on three sides outside the bath and linoleum in the bath. House had been vacant for at least a month and the seller said she did not use the shower.

I filled the shower pan with water using paper towel and rubber flap cover (seals drain better) and let it set for 30 minutes or so. I leave the water drip from the shower head to remind me to go back and check the water and pick up my stopper. In the 1.5 hours from filling the pan, letting it set 30 min and talking with the buyers for an hour about the findings, I (nor they) did not see any water around the walls outside of the bath.

The next day the wife goes back and sees water on top of the laminate flooring. I do not find out about this for 3+ weeks. In the mean time the client closes on the house and pulls up the laminate flooring finding more water. They call the home warranty company. The HWC comes out and test the pan seeing water come out from under the wall (remember the flooring has now been removed). The HWC rep states that “your HI should have caught this.” I guess the client then calls another inspector? and he tests the pan and says “your HI should have caught this.”

I finally hear about the problems from the realtor of whom has given me a good amount of business (I want to try to save this relationship if possible). I then go out to the house and test the pan again, and I see the water. I then meet with the clients and fess up that yes the pan leaks and I did not see it for these reasons (dry floor/laminate covering water/short time frame). I then politically offer to share the cost of the repairs.

The client then has a plumber? come out to remove the tile in preparation for my plumber to come and install a new pan. Then I will get a tiler out to install the new tile. This plumber? sees that the pan water proofing was tar paper rather than rubber and states “your HI should have caught this.” He only sees this after he has removed the tile.

Needless to say I have zero credibility with my client.

My argument is that all of these people did not see the home in the same conditions I did and their findings after the floor was ripped up and the tile was off the wall will be different than mine.

On the report, I noted grout and caulk in the shower needed attention and that the flooring outside the bath needed attention. I basically say “recommend repair as needed” on these items. Granted grout and caulk is a far cry from a bad pan. Again I did not see the water that was apparently flowing under the laminate flooring in the 1.5 hours I was at the house after I started my test of the pan. I do not have a pic of the pan full of water. I do not have an explanation of how I test tiled shower pans and its limitations in the report. Both of these I will fix on future inspections.

I have a pre-inspection agreement that the client signed at the inspection. Clause is as follows: “In the event of a claim against the company, CLIENT agrees to supply the company with the following: (1) Written notification of adverse conditions within seven (7) days of discovery, and (2) Access to the premises prior to changing the conditions, except in emergencies. Failure to comply with the above conditions will release the company and its agents from any and all obligations.” The client has not moved into the house pending other remodeling and the bath is the third one in the house (not the master).

Okay, hit me, guys. What should I have done to detect this leaking pan? What can I do to gain back some credibility with the client? I know I am due a sit-down with the realtor and her top-producer manager. What else? Can someone tell me if tar paper was used in the past for waterproofing (33 yo house)? Anything else you guys want to impart.

Thanks.

Bill

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Sorry to hear about the problem Bill.

I was wondering what this statement in your report means from the inspection........"On the report, I noted grout and caulk in the shower needed attention and that the flooring outside the bath needed attention."

What condition about the flooring outside the bath did you see during the inspection that needed attention? I assume when you say "attention" you mean "repairs". If this is the case, I would ditch that word and use "repairs" or "repairs needed" in it's place. If there is something about the floor that you saw called fror repair, did you specify the observed condition in the report? Any testing with a moisture meter during the inspection of the floor in question? Any stains or evidence of repairs noted on the ceiling below?

I cringe a little whenever I see a shower stall.

I have replaced several shower pans.
I know of only one reliable method to test a tiled shower.
I understand this is not practical for a standard HI.

It goes like this:

Plug the drain line, do not just cover the drain.
Fill with water to 4"
Let stand over night.
Check water level.

Using a rubber flapper to cover the drain hole is not an effective means to stop water from going down the drain. Tiled showers also drain below the tile.
In 1.5 hours you may notice a drop in the water, but 24 is the accepted standard.

I do have questions:
Was this a slab,
crawl space or 2nd floor?

Evidence of water on baseboards, or walls?

Evidence of ANY repairs?
PS. New upgrades (flooring) is sometimes used to hide damage.
When I see NEW anything, I get suspicious.
May be that the seller knew about the leaking shower.
Would not be the first time that a seller took measures to hide problems.

"What can I do to gain back some credibility with the client? "

Explain to your client why you can not detect shower pan leaks, in writing.

I normally don't fill up tile showers with water to check for leaks. I suspect in this case there was a small leak that was made bigger by filling the pan up with water. I just run the shower like it would be used normally and check for leaks. If it is an old shower I may let it run longer than I would for a newer shower. Submerging a shower pan is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

I normally don't fill up tile showers with water to check for leaks. I suspect in this case there was a small leak that was made bigger by filling the pan up with water. I just run the shower like it would be used normally and check for leaks. If it is an old shower I may let it run longer than I would for a newer shower. Submerging a shower pan is asking for trouble in my opinion.

Agree 100%. It's kind of like loading up the service panel to see if the main breaker trips or putting a hydraulic jack on a deck railing to see if it can hold a 200 LB load. I too wonder what the "flooring needs attention" was supposed to mean.

Sounds more like a disclosure issue with the sellers to me. You did more than what the TREC SOPs call for. If it leaked that bad, Im sure the previous owners knew it.

An hour and a half for an inspection seems pretty darn quick to me.

As stated on first page of Form REI-7A1 (I didnt copy it all)

This property inspection is not an exhaustive inspection of the structure, systems, or components. The inspection may not reveal all deficiencies. A real estate inspection helps to reduce some of the risk involved in purchasing a home, but it cannot eliminate these risks, nor can the inspection anticipate future events or changes in performance due to changes in use or occupancy. It is recommended that you obtain as much information as is available about this property, including any seller’s disclosures, previous inspection reports, engineering reports, building/remodeling permits, and reports performed for or by relocation companies, municipal inspection departments, lenders, insurers, and appraisers.

Property conditions change with time and use. For example, mechanical devices can fail at any time, plumbing gaskets and seals may crack if the appliance or plumbing fixture is not used often, roof leaks can occur at any time regardless of the apparent condition of the roof, and the performance of the structure and the systems may change due to changes in use or occupancy, effects of weather, etc.

Note to self: ALWAYS be suspicious of new floor covering, especially laminate, since as mentioned earlier, it can hide lots of stuff.

ALWAYS give them the "I'm not Superman speech" so they understand that there are some things you cannot see like water seeping under a laminate floor covering.

Bill, sounds like you have handled it better than most except for the use of a moisture meter but there is no guarantee that you would have got a reading at the time of the inspection.

I too always run water in tile shower pans and not to do so is asking for trouble, IMHO. I find about 1 in 20 have leaks and will be rotting out the framing around the walls (slab foundations) and a shower pan test is the only way to make the leak evident. If a shower pan cannot stand up to 2" of water then it is not going to stand up to daily use or a slow drain.

1) My report indicated the flooring was in need of repair (or deficient here in TX). I just used other words for you guys to have some fun with me.

2) Slab foundation. Single story.

3) My inspection was over 3 hours total plus an hour on the briefing. I just did not get to this pan until I was 2 hours into the inspection.

4) The paper between the rubber cover and the drain increases its ability to hold water for the time I am on-site.

5) The flooring did not look "that" new to me but the client indicated to me when I was owning up to the leak that he thought the flooring was recently replaced.

6) New paint throughout. It was a house for sale.

7) Client thinks the leak was known and would have been happy if it was disclosed. It was not so now it somewhat falls on me. Reason for this post.

8) Need to break out that moisture meter book ...

Most of what I understand from you guys is that I need to beef up my non-Superman briefing. I have found too many bad shower pans with the 2" method that I also believe I would incur a lot of liability and grief (above this one) if I did not perform this basic test. I am also thinking of adding a couple of paragraphs to the front of my report re-emphasizing the non-Superman status of my current being.

Guys, if there is anything else I might have missed please do not be shy. I am not perfect and believe myself coach-able.

Bill

The purchase contract in NC states that any damage done during an inspection is the responsibility of the buyer to repair. That is why I do a non-destructive inspection.

If I fill the shower up with water and it leaks all over the floor the seller has the right to ask the buyer to get the shower back to the condition it was before the inspection when there was no water on the floor. If an abnormal condition is created then you have no leg to stand on....in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Bill Myers

1) My report indicated the flooring was in need of repair (or deficient here in TX). I just used other words for you guys to have some fun with me.
Bill

Bill, what condition existed with the floor that led you to state it was in need of repair? Did you state this observed condition in your report?

Not trying to give you a hard time here. Just trying to figure out what you saw and what you reported as it may have some bearing in where the responsibility falls. If you saw something that indicated a possible moisture issue, you should always report it as such.

If you didn't use a moisture meter or don't have one or don't have one you trust, I would highly recommend investing in a good quality meter. It will pay for itself many times over and help protect you.

Where to start?

First a couple of points from a couple of the above posts.

Originally Posted by Bill Myers

I filled the shower pan with water using paper towel and rubber flap cover (seals drain better) and let it set for 30 minutes or so. I leave the water drip from the shower head to remind me to go back and check the water and pick up my stopper. In the 1.5 hours from filling the pan, letting it set 30 min and talking with the buyers for an hour about the findings, I (nor they) did not see any water around the walls outside of the bath.

The water was being absorbed into the mortar bed of the shower pan and then beginning to leak out, but before it became visible it drained the shower.

With the mortar bed still saturated with the water you tested the shower with, the leak became apparent right away.

This plumber? sees that the pan water proofing was tar paper rather than rubber and states “your HI should have caught this.” He only sees this after he has removed the tile.

Let me get this straight: the plumber says you should have seen the felt pan while it was still covered with tile? I would tell your client NOT to use that plumber as that plumber obviously has has no idea how a shower pan is constructed: i.e., the shower pan liner is installed first, then the mortar bed, then the tile, and if the shower pan liner is still visible - someone really screwed up big time.

[/quote]

First, before testing a shower pan, look for ANY evidence of ANY moisture staining around the shower. If there is ANY evidence AT ALL, the shower pan either leaked or still leaks. If there is no evidence that the shower pan has been replaced (new tile, etc.) then the shower pan STILL LEAKS.

I then tell my client, the agent, the seller, whoever is there that if they want me to flood the house to prove that the shower pan leaks, *I WILL BE GLAD TOO FLOOD THE HOUSE at their request.*

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Plug the drain line, do not just cover the drain.

Rick, where do you plug the drain, how far down?

Fill with water to 4"
Let stand over night.
Check water level.

A dropped water level *does not* confirm a shower pan leaks.

Using a rubber flapper to cover the drain hole is not an effective means to stop water from going down the drain. Tiled showers also drain below the tile.

Correct, as the shower drain has weep holes in it to drain the water in/under the mortar bed back to the shower drain.

In 1.5 hours you may notice a drop in the water, but 24 is the accepted standard.

I have never heard of that testing method before - ever - so I am curious as to what "accepted standard" it is.

The best way to test a shower ... note that I said "shower" and NOT "shower pan" ... you need to test the entire shower "system" ... is as follows:

First and foremost - LOOK for ANY evidence of ANY moisture staining around ANY where around the shower walls outside the shower, below the shower, etc.

Next, place one of the shower stall testers over the shower drain, these have a flange which stops most of the water from flowing into the drain under the shower tester, turn the HOT water on, let the HOT water run, and run, and run ... checking the shower to make sure that the shower is filling up to the top of the shower stall tester, then over into the shower stall tester, then freely running down the drain - BE CAUTIOUS as you may find a clogged drain and the water will suddenly back up and fill the shower, overflowing onto the floor ... which makes a big mess (and negates any test you were doing, of course).

The HOT water expands everything and it something is going to leak it will be more likely to leak when it is moving (expanding).

Running the shower also checks the riser to the shower head for leaks and the connect of the shower head and shower neck - you will see leaks from the back of the shower head, but leaks from the back of the shower neck are inside the wall and you will not see them.

Running the shower also checks the shower drain, and HOT water expands the drain, increasing the likelihood of leaks showing up.

You will need to run A LOT of water as the mortar bed is likely not saturated and you may well need to saturate the mortar bed before the water shows up outside the shower - which seems to be what happened in your case.

That is the "home inspectors" shower testing method.

The "nitty-gritty" shower testing method is to use a garden hose from outside and stick the end down into the shower drain. You are not ONLY testing the shower drain.

If not leaks show up there, then remove the shower head and install a garden hose adapter, then connect a 7' or so length of garden hose to that adapter and stick the other end down into the shower drain - you are now testing the shower drain AND the shower valve, shower riser, shower neck.

If no leaks, place the shower tester over the shower drain and use the outside connected garden hose, you are now ONLY testing the shower pan.

Oh, and wait one-to-two days between each test to make sure that each test is dried out afterward and that the next test is independent of any influence of the previous tests ... and run each test for one entire day.

If it does not leak then, well, it is very unlikely to leak.

You really want to test "the shower stall" and not just "the shower pan".

From TREC RULE §535.227 (items applicable to your situation).


(3) General limitations. The inspector is not required to:

(A) inspect:

(iv) anything buried, hidden, latent, or concealed; or

(C) determine:

(D) anticipate future events or conditions, including but not limited to:


(vi) the presence of water penetration(s); or

(vii) future performance of any item;

Or you could perform a sensitive helium leak test of the entire plumbing system (if you had several days and all of the equipment).

Come on guys. You do the best you can in the time you have. I agree with Jerry about running the hot water for a lenghth of time.
TREC indicates a moisture meter is "specialized equipment" and not required. Is it a good idea to use one? Yes, but its not required in Texas.

Am I a better inspector today than I was on my first 10? Absolutely. Am I a better inspector today than my last inspection? I like to think so. Im always trying to learn.

At the end of the day, its a quick inspection that cannot possibly catch everything. Im still leaning towards disclosure.

How come there isnt a Bill Myers in the TREC database as an active licensed inspector?

Myers, Billy Wayne 0003279 Professional Inspector Expired 3/31/2001 Longview, TX
Myers, Bryan Douglas 0009954 Professional Inspector Expired 1/31/2009 Burleson, TX
Myers, Mark Richard 0010480 Professional Inspector Active 2/28/2011 Houston, TX
Myers, Richard Frederick 0006965 Professional Inspector Expired 2/28/2006 Granbury, TX
Myers, Ronny Lynn 0009888 Professional Inspector Active 11/30/2010 Balch Springs, TX
Myers, Shannon Sue 0006023 Professional Inspector Expired 5/31/2004 Lubbock, TX
Myers, Tracy Lee 0006685 Professional Inspector Active 8/31/2010 San Antonio, TX

Originally Posted by imported_John Smith

How come there isnt a Bill Myers in the TREC database as an active licensed inspector?

Myers, Billy Wayne 0003279 Professional Inspector Expired 3/31/2001 Longview, TX
Myers, Bryan Douglas 0009954 Professional Inspector Expired 1/31/2009 Burleson, TX
Myers, Mark Richard 0010480 Professional Inspector Active 2/28/2011 Houston, TX
Myers, Richard Frederick 0006965 Professional Inspector Expired 2/28/2006 Granbury, TX
Myers, Ronny Lynn 0009888 Professional Inspector Active 11/30/2010 Balch Springs, TX
Myers, Shannon Sue 0006023 Professional Inspector Expired 5/31/2004 Lubbock, TX
Myers, Tracy Lee 0006685 Professional Inspector Active 8/31/2010 San Antonio, TX

Is there an "imported_John Smith" there?

"Is there an "imported_John Smith" there? "


LOL

"Rick, where do you plug the drain, how far down?"

Below the drain fixture (3-4")
Use a 2" plug

"A dropped water level *does not* confirm a shower pan leaks."

No it does not, just as not having a drop in water level is not confirmation that there is not a leak, but it is a reasonable reliable indicator of each.

In 1.5 hours you may notice a drop in the water, but 24 is the accepted standard.
"I have never heard of that testing method before - ever - so I am curious as to what "accepted standard" it is."

I was thinking the test method I spoke of was in the IRC, after looking I see that it is not. I will have to research where I remember this from.
Also, maybe it would have been better to say "accepted practices".

I realize that this may not exactly be an accepted standard, but it's the best I can do on short notice.

Tile Showers
"When tested, the shower pan must hold water without any leakage for 24 hours when filled to the top of the dam."

leaking shower pan,1
"Let the water sit for three to 24 hours"

Shower Pan Liner Replacement for Tiled Showers | Tile Your World
" The water is left in overnight"

How-To Tile Showers 2
the pan was left overnight for a recommended water test.

Oatey says 4 hours

http://www.oatey.com/shower_drains/l...an%20Liner.pdf
"Fill the shower floor with water just below the top of the curb and let it sit for four (4) hours."

Bill,

"Your home inspector should have caught this". Some of the most hated words in our profession. Particularly when it is from people that do not understand what we do. Sure, you can see lots of stuff when the tile is out or the floor is out.

I do not know Texas requirements, but from what you posted, you did everything right. There are limits to what we can do as inspectors.

Is there an "imported_John Smith" there?

Yes, you just have to know where to look.

Oatey says 4 hours? Time is money. If you have a 4 hour or > inspection time, that might work well.

"What can I do to gain back some credibility with the client? "

I suggest that you provide information that will educate them on:
The different materials used in the shower
Where a shower can leak
What are the causes of the leak
Methods that are commonly used to detect the leak
What was the test method you performed
Why you use that method
Why you did not use other methods

Provide this information in an email or CD with links to articles on the Internet. Quote the part you want them to read then provide a link to that page.
Your goal is to have them come to the conclusion that:
...there is no sure fire way to test the shower.
... the test method you use is accepted by (who).
... at the time of inspection, there was no evidence that additional/ other testing was necessary.

Remember, your goal is to educate, do not try to defend yourself or disclaim your way out.
Hope this helps

My shower testing is this: I turn the water on and let it run for 10-15 minutes like a normal shower (unless you are my 13yr old). Then I look for signs of seepage. If I see any darker than normal grout on the exterior I note it and look for more.

I would say that 75% of all tile showers have an improperly installed shower pan or liner.

The leaking one I found last week was not difficult to find.

Guys,

Everyone, I appreciate all your help. Shower pans are interesting to say the least. I hope this discussion helps others out there. I searched the site for some of this info and did not find this exactly. Again, thus my post.

Rick & Jerry, great links and info on how/what to test and how to word my disclaimer on future pans. I may also use this to offer an optional upgrade to my current shower pan test ... for a fee. Kind of like a radon test. I also appreciate the suggestions on how to approach my client. I will probably use this approach to talk to the realtor as well.

John, I will buy you a beverage of your choice when we meet at the next TAREI meeting.

Thanks again,
Bill

Originally Posted by imported_John Smith

How come there isnt a Bill Myers in the TREC database as an active licensed inspector?

Myers, Billy Wayne 0003279 Professional Inspector Expired 3/31/2001 Longview, TX
Myers, Bryan Douglas 0009954 Professional Inspector Expired 1/31/2009 Burleson, TX
Myers, Mark Richard 0010480 Professional Inspector Active 2/28/2011 Houston, TX
Myers, Richard Frederick 0006965 Professional Inspector Expired 2/28/2006 Granbury, TX
Myers, Ronny Lynn 0009888 Professional Inspector Active 11/30/2010 Balch Springs, TX
Myers, Shannon Sue 0006023 Professional Inspector Expired 5/31/2004 Lubbock, TX
Myers, Tracy Lee 0006685 Professional Inspector Active 8/31/2010 San Antonio, TX

I see 3 of them. Do your research before you throw someone under the bus.

Myers, William I 0489315 Salesperson Active 10/31/2011 Fort Worth, TX
Myers, William Keeton 0184823 Broker Active 4/30/2012 Breckenridge, TX
Myers, William Keeton II 0457627 Broker Active 7/31/2010 Bridgeport, TX

None of them are listed as being active licensed inspectors Ken. The active ones are listed as salespeople and brokers.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

I see 3 of them. Do your research before you throw someone under the bus.

KR, in your "list" you displayed a real estate sales person licensee and two Real Estate Broker Licesees.

IJS was specific, i.e. an active status licensed Professional INSPECTOR.

Last time I checked, a RE sales or broker license didn't qualify for HI status in TX.

You're missing the point completely. We should be spending our time trying to help others instead of wasting it by checking licensing information.

If you're so sure he has no valid license then complain to TREC instead of whining about it here where nothing can be done about it.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

You're missing the point completely. We should be spending our time trying to help others instead of wasting it by checking licensing information.

If you're so sure he has no valid license then complain to TREC instead of whining about it here where nothing can be done about it.

KR, it is you who have missed the point(s) {helpful and otherwise to the "OP" including IJS's citations which would apply to performance of a licensed HI in TX , as well as} of the numerous other contributions upon this thread to its polite conclusion ... prior to your "throw under the bus" unhelpful, erroneous, disparaging & accusatory posts.

IJS was pointing out the obvious - new ID, "first time post", and subject matter - usually ALWAYS an alias, and more often than not - a disgruntled seller, RE agent, or client, fishing for ammo.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

KR, it is you who have missed the point(s) {helpful and otherwise to the "OP" including IJS's citations which would apply to performance of a licensed HI in TX , as well as} of the numerous other contributions upon this thread to its polite conclusion ... prior to your "throw under the bus" unhelpful, erroneous, disparaging & accusatory posts.

IJS was pointing out the obvious - new ID, "first time post", and subject matter - usually ALWAYS an alias, and more often than not - a disgruntled seller, RE agent, or client, fishing for ammo.

That's pretty funny coming from you since you're using an alias and don't provide your location.

These days you have to be a little paranoid I guess. Too easy for someone to say they are an HI when they could easily be a disgruntled home buyer or seller going after an inspector. As they said, one or two posts and doesnt show up on TREC.

Someone looking for an angle on trying to sue when of my peers?

I sure hope not. But you never know.

Originally Posted by imported_John Smith

These days you have to be a little paranoid I guess. Too easy for someone to say they are an HI when they could easily be a disgruntled home buyer or seller going after an inspector. As they said, one or two posts and doesnt show up on TREC.

Someone looking for an angle on trying to sue when of my peers?

I sure hope not. But you never know.

Why be paranoid? Does it really matter who asked the question? Would you answer the original question differently whether it be posed by a HI, attorney or general public? I wouldn't. If one of the guys in the same company as me blew a call on an inspection I wouldn't try to protect them. I'd give an honest answer. Why on earth would you want to protect one of your "peers".

" If one of the guys in the same company as me blew a call on an inspection I wouldn't try to protect them. "

With as many guys as you have, and as many inspections as they have done, and you say "If". So you would have the rest of us think that your guys have never "blew a call".

"I'd give an honest answer."
As honest as the statement you made above.

Why on earth would you want to protect one of your "peers".
Based on your statement above, you tell us.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

" If one of the guys in the same company as me blew a call on an inspection I wouldn't try to protect them. "

With as many guys as you have, and as many inspections as they have done, and you say "If". So you would have the rest of us think that your guys have never "blew a call".

"I'd give an honest answer."
As honest as the statement you made above.

Why on earth would you want to protect one of your "peers".
Based on your statement above, you tell us.

Tell you what? That I wouldn't lie to protect an inspector who blew a call? I've already stated that. Sure we get claims. They get reviewed and if I find the inspector blew the call we or our insurance pays.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

Tell you what? That I wouldn't lie to protect an inspector who blew a call? I've already stated that. Sure we get claims. They get reviewed and if I find the inspector blew the call we or our insurance pays.

That sounds like a fair and honest statement.
Thanks

I run the water the whole time, 2-3 hours with a stopper. I find a ton of pan or drain leaks. Here is one thru a slab. Don't forget to check the parameter of the pan on the exterior side as well.
Just dodgen bullets...

i guess no one follows the proper installation method

http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...erPanLiner.pdf

that is why i turn in unlicensed contractors

Originally Posted by Richard D'Aquanno

i guess no one follows the proper installation method

http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...erPanLiner.pdf

that is why i turn in unlicensed contractors

"i guess no one follows the proper installation method" "that is why i turn in unlicensed contractors"

You are wasting half of your effort ... you would need to turn in licensed contractors to make a dent in the people who install shower pans incorrectly, and there are unlicensed contractors which may actually do it properly.

i haven't seen to many people who can do a wet bed, it's becoming a lost art

around here if a licensed contractor put it in with out a permit he would be fined

and they are checking for permits when a house goes up for sale

If you notice in that link, the thing that virtually no one does (still), and no one did (I have had made some limited headway into contractors and inspectors going 'Oh, I see what you are saying'), is with ...

... the shower pan liner itself is required to be sloped 1/4" per foot to the drain. Correct, the shower pan liner itself is not to be laid on a flat floor and then have a mortar bed laid on top of it, creating the slope at the tile surface - the primary required slope is required to be at the shower pan liner itself. Water WILL get through the tile and collect on the shower pan liner, that is why it is there, and if the shower pan liner itself is sloped as required, that water will drain to the weep holes at the shower drain.

i had a very hard time finding a tile guy that would make the extra trip out to do the pre slop, so i had him train me on the process

if that step is missed water will set at the bottom and a lot of it

in all our showers we started sealing everything with a water proof membrane
that is suitable for under water applications

Good that you started this thread. It demonstrates that there is a lot of differing concepts on the shower pan and what to do when you find one.

The link http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...erPanLiner.pdf Jerry showed is the newer concept on installation (which is the basic way I had been doing it since about 1975. The Old school methods were many and varied using all kinds of different materials. Though the basic concept was to make a sealed box liner.

Richard D., Keep looking and you will find someone that has it figured out. I can do the pan now in one day followed by day 2 tile, day 3 grout. If you can't, just add money into job for extra day. Good does not come cheep.

Rick, Your sign off form on testing is where I was heading in the other thread but was side tracked by Ted I guess.

Destructive testing is none thing. Testing with a high potential of failure and with subsequent damage is something else.

I think that many that have not tested the shower pan in the past will be looking at it as an additional item to add to their inspection with just cause. If nothing else it will remove the call back from the client when the pan is flooded and then leaks. The client was informed of the possibility if the pan was not tested as part of the inspection or at a later date by other trade. It is a win-win for the inspector.

Now I will have to say that old pans were not intended to be tested with standing but were designed for normal use without drain clogs as a common occurrence. Just to shed water to the drain and protect the sub-floor from moisture.

In a side note there is the issue of life expectancy of the shower pan. Depending on the materials used and installation method could be 15 to 50 years. Saying that is it even reasonable to test a 30 or 40 year old pan. Rather just run the water see if it leaks and report to the client that under running water no leaks were found and due to the age (depending on materials/design) that it may be at the end of its useful life and it should be an anticipated replacement item.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

I normally don't fill up tile showers with water to check for leaks. I suspect in this case there was a small leak that was made bigger by filling the pan up with water. I just run the shower like it would be used normally and check for leaks. If it is an old shower I may let it run longer than I would for a newer shower. Submerging a shower pan is asking for trouble in my opinion.

I agree, I run it like it would normally be used. Another practice I use is prior to going into the crawlspace, I flush each toilet again and I turn on all sinks, tubs and showers, along with the furnace fan if I've notice flex ducting while checking the registers. The reason I run the furnace fan is to help find holes the rodents have chewed through them.