Thread: Checking the grounding on electric hot water tanks

Do you check the grounding wire connection at the electric hot water tank by opening up a panel if necessary?

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Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

Do you check the grounding wire connection at the electric hot water tank by opening up a panel if necessary?

If you use a voltage sensor you can touch the tank with it and if the ground is connected it will not do anything. If the ground is not connected it will alarm. No real need to remove the cover unless you want to just take a looksee.

On newer WH tanks or on the ones I see in my area the ground connection is visible on the top of the tank. I see mostly States brand as they are made here.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

... No real need to remove the cover unless you want to just take a looksee.
...

grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug.jpg grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-2.jpg grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-3.jpg grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-4.jpg grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-5.jpg
Agreed.
I also take pictures of each wire connection on each tank. Give each wire a tug. And check the gauge.
The pictures show due diligence. IMHO

Those tanks would all flunk in my area. The wire needs to be in flexible conduit.

Boy, you guys are still in the wild west, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko
Give each wire a tug.


"That sounds like a real bad idea."

I agree
Maybe he meant to say give the cable a tug.
That is what he is doing in the picture.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko
Give each wire a tug.


"That sounds like a real bad idea."

I agree
Maybe he meant to say give the cable a tug.
That is what he is doing in the picture.

And this is from a person who is producing training materials for home inspectors!

I really can not see anything positive as the end result of tugging on a each wire. On the other hand I can see several things that could go wrong!

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

... Give each wire a tug. ...

My bad.
I didn't mean "tug."
I meant "YANK," and with all your might!

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

My bad.
I didn't mean "tug."
I meant "YANK," and with all your might!

you're dangerous to yourself and anyone nearby

Do you check the grounding wire connection at the electric hot water tank by opening up a panel if necessary?

No never!

But,
is there any significant difference between this:
grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-2.jpg

and this:
grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-main-panel.jpg ?

If you do one, do you do the other?

The SOP require me to check the electrical service, they do not require me to check the hot water heater grounding.

Mr. Gromicko appears to have great confidence in his own savior faire when it comes to all things electrical. I do hope that his devil-may-care attitude does not rub off on any unsuspecting neophytes who may be reading this thread.

Ben,

Do you remove the cover plate on the bottom of the disposal/disposer and check the grounding?

Do you drag the electric range out and check the grounding?

Do you remove the access cover on pool/spa/well pumps and check the grounding?

If not, why?

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

Ben,

Do you remove the cover plate on the bottom of the disposal/disposer and check the grounding?

Do you drag the electric range out and check the grounding?

Do you remove the access cover on pool/spa/well pumps and check the grounding?

If not, why?

Dom,
Those are all good questions.
Inspectors often wonder about the potential legal consequences if their inspections go beyond what their Standards of Practice (SOP) require.

If an inspector consistently goes far beyond what the SOP requires, a client might successfully argue that the inspector voluntarily assumed a duty greater than the contract required.

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

Ben,

Do you remove the cover plate on the bottom of the disposal/disposer and check the grounding?

Do you drag the electric range out and check the grounding?

Do you remove the access cover on pool/spa/well pumps and check the grounding?

If not, why?

Mr. D'Agostino might also have asked if Mr. Gromicko performs his "tugging" act on all cables he encounters in an inspection. All of those contained within the distribution panel immediately come to mind. And, is that "tugging" a recognized substitute for using a torque driver at the connection lugs and screws?

I do tug on the service entrance conductors where they attach to the main breaker. I also feel them to see how hot they are. Several time I have found one is much hotter than the other which indicated a loose connection in the meter base or a faulty main breaker.

The result of moving an already-loose wire inside the electrical panel can be very dangerous.

Loose wire pics:
tug-electrical-wire-inspection-training-ben-gromicko-2.jpg tug-electrical-wire-inspection-training-ben-gromicko-1.jpg

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

The result of moving an already-loose wire inside the electrical panel can be very dangerous.

Same goes for a loose wire in a water heater, no? You are probably standing on concrete, do you check YOUR grounding?

Check the clamp with a screwdriver. I don't advise anyone to touch a wire or cable during a home inspection. That is for trained Electricians like James.

Do any of you inspectors use a inferred camera to do thermal imagining? You can use the camera to look at panels to look for hot spots.

I know of an inspector who uses a pen to inspect the inside of an electrical panelboard.
He removes the guts and metal from the pen to make it safe.
He keeps it inside his shirt pocket for easy access.

Wood tongue depressor works for me.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Wood tongue depressor works for me.

Mr. Wand: Hopefully you dry it off first.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Same goes for a loose wire in a water heater, no? You are probably standing on concrete, do you check YOUR grounding?

Check the clamp with a screwdriver. I don't advise anyone to touch a wire or cable during a home inspection. That is for trained Electricians like James.

I check every wire in the panel to see if it is loose. A good screw driver , a little push. No big deal. If you are afraid of electric panels please do not open them. There is nothing worse than someone being afraid of a shock, cautious yes, afraid no. If you are afraid of heights do not climb onto a roof. For that matter don't be a Home Inspector.

Pulling on wires to see what might happen is a bit different. If you cannot see where a wire comes in and where in connects one should not be pulling on it for any reason with the power on.

As far as contributing to this thread I have no idea why I am as Ben just wants hits on his thread to benefit his long line of business ventures. Warranties, books he is selling, classes. He is not here and has absolutely no interest with inspectors and being one of the boys or contributing to anything. It is solely for business ventures only wants you and me and everyone else to contribute to him. Like I said on another thread...13,000 members plus all those that visit that are not members. Where can a man that has multiple business that all have to do with selling someone something from one of those businesses including and a large part from home inspectors get in front of such a crowd every single day for absolutely zero investment. like home inspectors. We may on an extremely rare occasion get a call from a home owner asking advise (that has happened twice in the past few years) and maybe a home inspection.

Ben...I know you are reading this because you are adding those clicks up (as good if not far better than an article submission company sending you back hits) and sitting there thinking of the next thread to start to get more of those clicks and all those potential customers for an absolute zero investment other than a few minutes here and there to respond to a post.

Oh well, enough of that. I would not want to drift from the thread and get in trouble.

Mr. Mennely: Just curious, and no discourtesy is intended, but does this poking and prodding of "every wire" extend to the service conductors at the service entrance?

Originally Posted by Elliot Franson

Mr. Mennely: Just curious, and no discourtesy is intended, but does this poking and prodding of "every wire" extend to the service conductors at the service entrance?

Ahhhhh, no. Not with out a full blast shield , welders shield, full electric gloves and someone elses hand to hold the screw driver and maybe ear plugs, x mother in-law to hold the screw driver. Afraid....no....just not a complete idiot.

This thread brings up some interesting questions:

As INSPECTORS are we taking off the many "inspection plates" that one encounters in the home? At least the accessable ones! This is not a discussion regarding SOP's.....

The incoming service panel has an Inspection plate, sometimes refered to as the "dead front" plate - I personally make it a habit to open this prior to entering a home, because what one sees behind this plate gives you a fairly good heads-up in identifying the present and past existance of what I refer to as an "Uncle Buck" (the DIY, can fix anything ...) occupant.

Also, the required appropriate GROUNDING can only be verified for correctness with the eye - regular instrumentation cannot be relied upon.

Just my thoughts ... interested to see what others do regarding this matter?

Regards - Richard
PS - I too begin to cast doubt on Benjamin's motif for his ridiculas postings, not educational by any means. Another question - do advertizers on this forum also have to abide by a specific set of rules regarding their postings? If not, why not?
VBR - Richard

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

...
As far as contributing to this thread I have no idea why I am as Ben just wants hits on his thread to benefit his long line of business ventures. ...

Ted,
I disagree. And, unfortunately, you force me to go off topic here...

--

I joined this message board (as well as the other message boards) long before I left my PEACH Home Inspections and started other "business ventures."

I still perform fee-paid inspections, but I've diversified in order to stay alive in this economy.

Presently, I do a myriad of things, and they all tend to overlap. I find it difficult to talk about one without another.
- home inspections
- commercial inspections
- very recently, fire door inspections
- i volunteer my time at InterNXXHI
- i just scheduled a pool inspection for next week
- i'm finishing a online course for Independent Adjusters
- i'm just finished editing a 4th edition of a book
- i'm writing a free newsletter about home maintenance
- i finished an article about writing reports using "past tense"
- i'm filming a training video for inspecting kitchen sinks
- i'm editing a training video about wind and hail inspections
- researching on the correct installation location of a main vent stack on a national campground outhouse
- on and on

All I do, day in and day out, is related to inspections and training, including engaging in interesting conversations on message boards. I love it. That's why I joined this board years ago.

Unfortunately, my association with other inspectors is touted as reason to judge and deride.

Originally Posted by Richard Soundy

...This is not a discussion regarding SOP's.....
...
PS - I too begin to cast doubt on Benjamin's motif for his ridiculas postings, not educational by any means. ...- Richard

I disagree.
I suggest not allowing an inspector's association with others professionals to be used as reason to judge and deride that inspector or association.

I started this thread and an identical one on another message board, and the threads on both have progressed to the SOP.

Most inspection contracts contain language stating that the inspector will perform the inspection in accordance with an SOP. An inspector who goes far beyond what the SOP requires may open him/herself up to a claim that there was an oral agreement that he/she was going to do a more rigorous inspection than what's required by the SOP.

Is removing a "dead front" from a panelboard or a junction box on top of the electric water tank considered going "far beyond" the SOP?

Actually this is about the SOP and a standard of care in carrying out inspections. Is the standard of care being met by not removing the cover plate on the HWH? We know its not a mandatory requirement of the SOP but is it a requirement under a standard of care?

To determine if the removal meets a SOC one would have to look at what inspectors are doing at their inspections. Are in fact a majority removing the cover plate? I somehow doubt it.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

Ted,
I disagree. And, unfortunately, you force me to go off topic here...

--

I joined this message board (as well as the other message boards) long before I left my PEACH Home Inspections and started other "business ventures."

I still perform fee-paid inspections, but I've diversified in order to stay alive in this economy.

Presently, I do a myriad of things, and they all tend to overlap. I find it difficult to talk about one without another.
- home inspections
- commercial inspections
- very recently, fire door inspections
- i volunteer my time at InterNXXHI
- i just scheduled a pool inspection for next week
- i'm finishing a online course for Independent Adjusters
- i'm just finished editing a 4th edition of a book
- i'm writing a free newsletter about home maintenance
- i finished an article about writing reports using "past tense"
- i'm filming a training video for inspecting kitchen sinks
- i'm editing a training video about wind and hail inspections
- researching on the correct installation location of a main vent stack on a national campground outhouse
- on and on

All I do, day in and day out, is related to inspections and training, including engaging in interesting conversations on message boards. I love it. That's why I joined this board years ago.

Unfortunately, my association with other inspectors is touted as reason to judge and deride.

Some more free advertising for you Ben


I did not and would not force you to do exactly what you just did as in the red highlight above. This is exactly what you want. You are "forced" into such things to shamelessly plug all your business adventures....as in the red highlight above and I am not calling you a moron but anyone would be if they could not see thru you.

In essence you are treating every member of this board as a moron and smiling all the way thru your free advertising. Just waiting for someone to "force" you into the shameless plug of listing all you business adventures.

I noticed you have done much the same in every other thread in some way or another.

Poor man being forced to show the cards in his hand so he can no longer bluff to the win.

Do you look in the mirror everyday practicing the straight smiley face so everyone will be convinced of what you say.

No I did not get off thread here. No I cannot get in trouble for talking about shameless free advertising for your business adventures because it is exactly what is going on here.........not about tugging on wires in water heaters.

Just by starting this thread you already broke the rules because what it is about has nothing to do with the thread title.

Take your book and warranty off of your signature (I obviously noticed you dropped the price tag off of it), stop adding links to NACHI or anything to do with them or any business of yours and mention absolutely nothing but the topic of the thread and not your plethera of business adventures and see how long you will last. You just could not stand it and be board to death and have absolutely no reason in your mind on coming on here.

Remember

Signiture

Name
website

Discussion.

...nothing of your businesses or partners businesses or brothers businesses, books you are writing for profit, companies you get kick backs from, news letters to point back to your businesses, adjusters course, training videos etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I have a very strong idea that, one, you could not do it, two, if you could it would be short lived because you would have no chance of gain from it financially.

I am heartly sorry for forcing you to advertise all your business ventures. I will try to refrain from such nastiness ever again.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Some more free advertising for you Ben


I did not and would not force you to do exactly what you just did as in the red highlight above. This is exactly what you want. You are "forced" into such things to shamelessly plug all your business adventures....as in the red highlight above and I am not calling you a moron but anyone would be if they could not see thru you.

In essence you are treating every member of this board as a moron and smiling all the way thru your free advertising. Just waiting for someone to "force" you into the shameless plug of listing all you business adventures.

I noticed you have done much the same in every other thread in some way or another.

Poor man being forced to show the cards in his hand so he can no longer bluff to the win.

Do you look in the mirror everyday practicing the straight smiley face so everyone will be convinced of what you say.

No I did not get off thread here. No I cannot get in trouble for talking about shameless free advertising for your business adventures because it is exactly what is going on here.........not about tugging on wires in water heaters.

Just by starting this thread you already broke the rules because what it is about has nothing to do with the thread title.

Take your book and warranty off of your signature (I obviously noticed you dropped the price tag off of it), stop adding links to NACHI or anything to do with them or any business of yours and mention absolutely nothing but the topic of the thread and not your plethera of business adventures and see how long you will last. You just could not stand it and be board to death and have absolutely no reason in your mind on coming on here.

Remember

Signiture

Name
website

Discussion.

...nothing of your businesses or partners businesses or brothers businesses, books you are writing for profit, companies you get kick backs from, news letters to point back to your businesses, adjusters course, training videos etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I have a very strong idea that, one, you could not do it, two, if you could it would be short lived because you would have no chance of gain from it financially.

I am heartly sorry for forcing you to advertise all your business ventures. I will try to refrain from such nastiness ever again.

ted,
i'll trade you an ad for a ben

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Actually this is about the SOP and a standard of care in carrying out inspections. Is the standard of care being met by not removing the cover plate on the HWH? We know its not a mandatory requirement of the SOP but is it a requirement under a standard of care?

To determine if the removal meets a SOC one would have to look at what inspectors are doing at their inspections. Are in fact a majority removing the cover plate? I somehow doubt it.

Mr. Wand: I believe the "standard of care", or SOC, in the case of home inspectors, is much harder (if, indeed, at all possible) to ascertain than is the "standard of practice" or SOP.

The SOP is a technical standard that is in the form of a formal written document, and either voluntarily adopted or mandated by edict.

The SOC constitutes a de facto standard which, in the law of negligence, is the degree of care that a reasonable person should exercise. A "reasonable person"is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard to determine whether someone acted with negligence. The "reasonable person" acts sensibly, does things without serious delay, and takes proper, but not excessive, precautions.

There are so many terms in that last sentence, the definitions of which are endlessly arguable, that it makes proving up an SOC quite a nightmarish ordeal.

An SOP is not subject to the degree of interpretation that an SOC is subject to. Nor does the ascertaining of the SOP require straw polling of practitioners in order to obtain a somewhat tilted and subjective consensus.

The SOP can be compared to the model building code adopted in an area.

The SOC cannot be so easily identified.

In court, a decent attorney can prevent the opposing counsel from making his or her case based upon a perceived SOC, simply by pointing out the fact that not all of the practitioners were formally polled, and that a mere small representative numbers' opinion is not pertinent.

So then, perhaps in a state without licensing, and in the absence of an SOP, an SOC argument could be successfully fielded. In any other case, assuming competent counsel on both sides, probably not.

Just my opinion.

The general legal principle that applies is that the standard of care applicable to a professional in the performance of his or her duties is one of reasonable skill, care and knowledge. Although the standard is an objective one, the law will tailor it to fit each circumstance. Not surprisingly, there has been much debate about how that standard is to be applied in respect of professionals who, by definition, engage is the trading of their skill and knowledge. The one uncontroverted principle arising from that debate is that a professionals error of judgment will not constitute negligence. The problem, of course, has been how to distinguish misjudgment from negligence.

More to the point, when it comes to determining the importance of professional standards in respect of the legal standard, a court considers that a standard practice falls below the legal standard only if the standard practice fails to adopt obvious and reasonable precautions readily apparent to the court. Otherwise, the court will show deference to the standard practice.

More to the point, when it comes to determining the importance of professional standards in respect of the legal standard, a court considers that a standard practice falls below the legal standard only if the standard practice fails to adopt obvious and reasonable precautions readily apparent to the court. Otherwise, the court will show deference to the standard practice.

Mr. Wand: I am quite certain that I do not know what you are trying to say.

Sound clear to me the court will have the ultimate determination if such matters get that far.

the court will have the ultimate determination if such matters get that far.

Mr. Wand: That part we can agree on. Maybe not the rest, whatever that may have been.

This is an actual installation of the electrical connection at the tank.
YouTube - Electric Water Heater Inspection
No need to open anything up here.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

But,
is there any significant difference between this:
grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-2.jpg

and this:
grounding-electric-water-tank-inspection-tip-ben-gromicko-visible-tug-main-panel.jpg ?

If you do one, do you do the other?

one is a junction box; the other a service panel. I remove service panel covers,, but do not remove j-box covers for inspection. Anyway, I check the bonding of water heaters and other appliances, mechanicals, etc which is often accomplished through the grounding conductor.

Originally Posted by Bruce Carr

one is a junction box; the other a service panel. I remove service panel covers,, but do not remove j-box covers for inspection. Anyway, I check the bonding of water heaters and other appliances, mechanicals, etc which is often accomplished through the grounding conductor.

Mr. Carr: I presume that you do not verify the bonding as Mr. Gromicko does, by jerking on the bonding conductors? He is likely not aware that there are test instruments designed for this purpose.

yes, I use eqt designed for that. I also have a close friend who is a master electrician, which would think the Gromicko fellow is not real bright. find a good electrician and follow them around on a few jobs; you will learn quite a lot about electrical and how to inspect those systems.
BWC

Originally Posted by Elliot Franson

Mr. Carr: I presume that you do not verify the bonding as Mr. Gromicko does, by jerking on the bonding conductors? He is likely not aware that there are test instruments designed for this purpose.

ef,
this guy is trying to sell how to books and videos for aspiring home inspectors ? i wonder if he includes a free life insurance policy for you with himself as the benefactor?

It must be terrible for this guy to have all the answers, yet no one is asking the questions.

rick

tug-clamp-ben-gromicko.jpg
Ha. LOL.
It's important to determine if the cable clamp has secured the wire. No?

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

If you use a voltage sensor you can touch the tank with it and if the ground is connected it will not do anything. If the ground is not connected it will alarm. No real need to remove the cover unless you want to just take a looksee.

On newer WH tanks or on the ones I see in my area the ground connection is visible on the top of the tank. I see mostly States brand as they are made here.

Scott, sounded like a good idea! I tried this on my electric water heater. Did not work! I guess it only works with plastic plumbing?

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

It must be terrible for this guy to have all the answers, yet no one is asking the questions.

rick

Mr. Hurst: You are indeed a funny fellow!

Originally Posted by Benjamin Gromicko

Ted,
I disagree. And, unfortunately, you force me to go off topic here...

--


Unfortunately, my association with other inspectors is touted as reason to judge and deride.

Ben, let me state this a different way from others. As you hold two hats, and because of your past posts----are you here as an inspector or an advertiser? If you are responding as an inspector, to make make your responses believable----remove the two lines of advertising at the end of your message. And before you say something like "others do it", if they name their company--- they don't link their name followed by an advertising link. I myself, get tired of seeing the ads as well as something in large bold print that doesn't need to be in large bold print.

Mr. Goeken:
You should not go so hard on Mr. Gromicko. Self-promotion runs in his blood, in his DNA. And, there's probably nothing wrong with that, as long as he keeps it in his signatures and out of his posts.

Many folks on this forum use a signature that has a link to their professional websites. Why not? However, they do not also then rant on and on in their posts about their companies or services. It seems to be a benign practice that is allowed here.