Thread: hole in sewer pipe

I slammed a PVC sewer pipe with a wrecking bar and put a hole in the top of it about a half-inch diameter, while I was forming a driveway and am wondering if any plumbers would know if there is any way I can repair it without digging up the pipe and cutting it in half?

Keith G.

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Sounds like that DIY driveway project just got more expensive.

Keith

Technically you would need a PVC repair saddle.. Use Google to see what it looks like.

A cheap method would be to use a PVC coupler cut it in half and glue it over the hole.

Randy,

Thanks a bunch man.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Randy Mayo

Technically you would need a PVC repair saddle.. Use Google to see what it looks like.

A cheap method would be to use a PVC coupler cut it in half and glue it over the hole.

NEITHER will be allowed for a sewer pipe.

If you have something which will be allowed, post a link to it.

Keith - BE FOREWARNED that any repair you do like that WILL LIKELY snag waste and paper and you will have a clogged sewer line UNDER YOUR NEW DRIVEWAY ... which, as H. G. pointed out ... will make your project more expensive. It is much better to repair it PROPERLY NOW than to have to TEAR UP THE NEW DRIVE because you paid attention to someone who gave faulty advice and you followed it, creating a problem just waiting for the wrong time to happen. Be careful of how you proceed on that advice.

Keep digging, but be more careful. But really, if you hit this with a wrecking bar, how deep is this pipe?

Keith

I worked with general contractors that have laid miles of sewer lines tapping selves and saddles are used all the time. Here is a link to a simple 4" Tee saddle Tee Saddle, 4" x 1 1/2" # 41241 by Genova Products

Originally Posted by Randy Mayo

Keith

I worked with general contractors that have laid miles of sewer lines tapping selves and saddles are used all the time. Here is a link to a simple 4" Tee saddle Tee Saddle, 4" x 1 1/2" # 41241 by Genova Products

Here is the code which PROHIBITS those fittings:

- P3003.2 Prohibited joints.

Running threads and bands shall not be used in the drainage system. Drainage and vent piping shall not be drilled, tapped, burned or welded.
- - The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:
- - - 1. Cement or concrete.
- - - 2. Mastic or hot-pour bituminous joints.
- - - 3. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.
- - - 4. Joints between different diameter pipes made with elastomeric rolling O-rings.
- - - 5. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.

- - - 6. Saddle-type fittings.

Here is one of the reasons why:
- P3002.3.1 Drainage. Drainage fittings shall have a smooth interior waterway of the same diameter as the piping served. All fittings shall conform to the type of pipe used. Drainage fittings shall have no ledges, shoulders or reductions which can retard or obstruct drainage flow in the piping. Threaded drainage pipe fittings shall be of the recessed drainage type, black or galvanized. Drainage fittings shall be designed to maintain one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) grade.

Just because a product is manufactured does not mean the code allows the product to be used.

If you were working with non-dwelling unit project, then the Plumbing Code would apply instead of the Residential Code shown above, this is from the Plumbing Code:
- 707.1 Prohibited joints. The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:

- - 1. Cement or concrete joints.
- - 2. Mastic or hot-pour bituminous joints.
- - 3. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.
- - 4. Joints between different diameter pipes made with elastomeric rolling O-rings.
- - 5. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.

- - 6. Saddle-type fittings.

I would be more concerned about a blockage if the hole was on the bottom of the pipe. On the top of the pipe I would patch it and forget it. (real life vs. uthopia)

Originally Posted by James Duffin

I would be more concerned about a blockage if the hole was on the bottom of the pipe. On the top of the pipe I would patch it and forget it. (real life vs. uthopia)

Guess you've never seen pipes full (or even mostly full) of flowing waste and are under the assumption that the water NEVER touches the top of the horizontal pipe?

Otherwise you would not feel so confident in your position.

One little snag of waste or paper and that starts the snow ball rolling and ends up with a blockage in the waste line as more and more catch and snag on the slowly building clump of water and paper.

There really are real world reasons for those code requirements.

Keith

What you are wanting to do is considered a repair not a joint and most city code inspectors will have to approve or disapprove on a case by case basis. The Plumbing code referenced below applies to your case. Be upfront with the city code inspector on what happened and how you propose to fix the problem. Start with the easiest and cheapest solution, everything is negotiable. I have worked on the code enforcement side and I have worked on the contractor's side of the fence. What gets approved has allot to do with the personalities of the field superintendent and the field inspector. Try to resolve any problem at this level. The higher up the chain you push a problem the more they will quote the book and the less leeway you will get.

102.6 Additions, alterations or repairs. Additions, alterations,
renovations or repairs to any private sewage disposal
system shall conform to that required for a new system without
requiring the existing system to comply with all the requirements
of this code. Additions, alterations or repairs shall not
cause an existing system to become unsafe, insanitary or overloaded.
Minor additions, alterations, renovations and repairs to
existing systems shall meet the provisions for new construction,
unless such work is done in the same manner and arrangement as was in the existing system, is not hazardous and is
approved.

Originally Posted by Randy Mayo

Keith

I worked with general contractors that have laid miles of sewer lines tapping selves and saddles are used all the time. Here is a link to a simple 4" Tee saddle Tee Saddle, 4" x 1 1/2" # 41241 by Genova Products

I agree with Randy....utility contractors who work with GC's do not have to follow the plumbing code just like the power company does not have to follow the NEC. Municipalities also do not have to follow the plumbing code. They make sewer taps on top of pipes on a regular basis with no problem of blockages due to the tap. They also repair damaged pipes without creating blockage problems. All this means is that a damaged sewer line can be repaired without replacing it if done properly. This is where common sense comes into play to find the appropriate, quickest, and cheapest way to solve a, in this case, minor problem. If a utility contractor can do it....so can a good plumber.

"Dude",

That (your 4" saddle, non sanitary tee, cap") is so NOT LEGAL and so very wrong, to use for a private or municpal owned sewer lateral or sewer main in Florida, it isn't even funny.

To the OP:

No. You have to immediately notify the plumbing inspector and/or public works dept. emergency numbers. You have an open public health hazard that requires proper remediation and clean-up.

You previously (on another of your recent "driveway project" posts) said the driveway in question was in Hernando Beach.

You'll find the emergency services number on the left margin of the Hernando County Utility Department page that the following (clickable) link directs you to: Hernando County Utility Department

One of these days I'm going to have to see what you are saying. I'm sure it would be quite enlightening!

Sec. 28-238, Division 2, Article VI, Chapter 28 Utilities.

(j) Improper sanitary sewer connections. All sanitary sewer laterals or sanitary sewer clean-outs which contain leaks or breaks; uncapped sanitary sewer clean-outs, sump pumps, down spouts or yard drains which discharge into the sanitary sewer system; and all other sources of accidental, negligent or intended introduction of storm run-off or similar waters into the sanitary sewer system are hereby declared to be a public nuisance, and shall be abated by the owner of the property, who is hereby required to remove or correct such improper sanitary sewer connections


Below 28-244:
(b) The owner of the property shall be responsible for maintaining and keeping clean the sanitary sewer pipes leading and connecting from the property owner's plumbing system up to the point of connection to the district's sanitary sewer main line. The department retains all rights to insist on proper maintenance of the property owners' facilities and to exclude infiltration and harmful wastes by the owners. The department shall have the right to disconnect sanitary sewer service where plumbing is not maintained or where any plumbing code violations exist.

d) Failure to keep the sanitary sewer pipe and appurtenances, including but not limited to, the pipe leading from the plumbing system to the district's sanitary sewer main line and any grease and/or sand trap or other approved device, clean and maintained in a proper manner constitutes authority to the department to disconnect the water connection and/or the sanitary sewer connection, which shall not be reconnected until the sanitary sewer pipe and/or any such appurtenances shall be cleaned and maintained properly. In those instances where the owner has his own private water supply, the department shall have the right to disconnect such water supply to the plumbing system, and the owner shall have no right to reconnect his own private water supply until the sanitary sewer pipe leading from the plumbing system to the district's sanitary sewer main line has been maintained, cleared and restored to proper condition. Any violation of this provision by reconnecting the owner's private water supply or the connection from the district's waterline, or reconnecting the connection to the district's sanitary sewer main line, until such sanitary sewer pipes are cleaned and maintained properly, shall be considered a violation of this division and subject to the penalties hereinafter provided. In addition to any such penalties, a violator shall also be liable for restitution of all costs incurred by the district, its contractors or agents in exercising any authority provided under this section

Below, sec. 28-275, Article VII Groundwater protection and siting:

a) Any unauthorized discharge of a regulated substance(s) in excess of five (5) gallons if a liquid or twenty-five (25) pounds if a solid shall be reported immediately by the facility owner, operator or other responsible party to the county. Such notification shall in no way alleviate the owner, operator or responsible party from other local, state or federal reporting obligations required by law. The owner, operator, responsible party or person providing notification shall inform the county of the substance(s) discharged, the amount, location, duration of discharge and the potential hazard to groundwater, if known.

(b) A discharge of any quantity of a regulated substance must be remediated such that contamination of soils, surface water or groundwater is brought into compliance with local, state and/or federal standards.

(c) Clean-up activities shall begin concurrent with or immediately following emergency response activities. A full written report including the steps taken to contain and clean up the spill shall be submitted to the county within forty-five (45) days of the discovery of the spill.

(d) Any person responsible for a spill or unauthorized discharge shall be subject to the cleanup and reimbursement provisions in this article.

$$$

Cut a piece of a coffee can to fit over the hole and use a wire coat hanger to secure it in place. That will last you until you die and then it will be someone elses problem....the kids.....They need something to do in 40 years anyway!

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Cut a piece of a coffee can to fit over the hole and use a wire coat hanger to secure it in place. That will last you until you die and then it will be someone elses problem....the kids.....They need something to do in 40 years anyway!

You forgot the little smiley face at the end of your post...cuz I know you were'nt serious.

They used to do it that way.........

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

I slammed a PVC sewer pipe with a wrecking bar and put a hole in the top of it about a half-inch diameter, while I was forming a driveway and am wondering if any plumbers would know if there is any way I can repair it without digging up the pipe and cutting it in half?

Keith G.

Personally this is what I would do....KISS
Clean up the 1/2 inch hole with a file and assure there is no jagged edges for floaters (technical plumbing term) or other waste to get hung up on...cut a coupling in half (lengthwise) and glue it down. It would be good to keep the glue back away from the hole so it doesn't drip into the hole and cause an obstruction.

Here is a tip: never ask a HP how to repair anything....It is out of their scope of expertize (actually most will know how to fix things but are running scared...because it's not covered by their O&E....)
That is why you saw the posts siting codes, Violations,...We don't think with our heads anymore without consulting a Lawyer.

Wayne

Glad to hear from someone who has worked in the trenches and got his shoes muddy.

I find it entertaining to read the responses from retired professors who like to quote chapter and verse from their lonely cubical surrounded by dusty old code books. Obviously he has never work for a contractor or had the responsibility of contract administration. Every code book gives the state/county/city officials the ability to modify the requirements. Most code books will devote pages explaining the code in detail with the last sentence stating "or as approved."

Those of us who work in the field dealing with underground utilities on a daily basis understand the difference between theory and reality. Nothing is ever where the plans indicate and dealing with surprises is a daily event. Both code officials and contractors negotiate solutions to problems every day. This may cause Mr. Watson to puke in his trash can, but contractors will do more than required by code and code officials will relax code for no other reason than to preserve a good working relationship.

Originally Posted by Randy Mayo

Wayne

Glad to hear from someone who has worked in the trenches and got his shoes muddy.

I find it entertaining to read the responses from retired professors who like to quote chapter and verse from their lonely cubical surrounded by dusty old code books. Obviously he has never work for a contractor or had the responsibility of contract administration. Every code book gives the state/county/city officials the ability to modify the requirements. Most code books will devote pages explaining the code in detail with the last sentence stating "or as approved."

Those of us who work in the field dealing with underground utilities on a daily basis understand the difference between theory and reality. Nothing is ever where the plans indicate and dealing with surprises is a daily event. Both code officials and contractors negotiate solutions to problems every day. This may cause Mr. Watson to puke in his trash can, but contractors will do more than required by code and code officials will relax code for no other reason than to preserve a good working relationship.

Exactly! When I saw chapter and verse of the code posted to fix a simple 1/2 hole in a sewer pipe...I thought--O' Boy

Originally Posted by Randy Mayo

Those of us who work in the field dealing with underground utilities on a daily basis understand the difference between theory and reality.

Originally Posted by Larry Morrison

Exactly! When I saw chapter and verse of the code posted to fix a simple 1/2 hole in a sewer pipe...I thought--O' Boy

Two from the same 'pass on to others' group.

Guys - THERE ARE VERY GOOD REASONS why the code does not allow the use of saddle fittings, drilled holes, etc.

You can try to play 'Mr. Nice Guy' but when your fix fails and the homeowner is out there digging up a new driveway because he did not spend the extra 2 bucks to do it properly ... the homeowner is going to be pissed and wondering why he ever listened to you two. Especially after he was given all the reasons not to listen to you two.

There will always be, in any group, those who profess 'to know 'cause they done it before' and that what they say is better than those who 'tell it the way it is supposed to be', makes those who profess 'to know 'cause they done it before' feel more 'manly' I guess, but to most here it just makes those look 'stoopid' for ignoring why things should not be done that way.

Oh, well, so be it.

A bureaucrat is a bureaucrat no matter what clothes you dress him in.

And although we think they do very little work in the office, just imagine how much work they would get done in field, - First project would be, to find in manual or code book, instructions for how to get your hands dirty.

I agree with Randy and James. You 'do the best you can with the tools you got'.

It needs to be realized, that if we stick to the same old way of doing things just because it's in a book, then we can never advance.
Also, please note that the construction codes are just that = codes, not laws.

This country was not built on: 'find something in a book to cover my rearend'. But rather, use of common sense and honestly doing the best one can.
We need to get back to these ethics.

Jerry

With all due respect I am a firm believer in codes and code enforcement. They are written for a reason and thats why I like to have the code commentary version when possible to better understand the code writer's point of view. However situations that occur on a construction site do not always have a perfect solution. Everyone responding to Keith's post could stand in a circle and stare at that 1/2" hole in the pipe and give Keith advice all day. The truth is the code enforcement official that drives up in the pickup with his flashing yellow light is the one he has to deal with. If he allows Keith to repair it with a coffee can or makes him replace a 20 foot section it's the code officials decision. If Keith doesn't like it there is usually an appeal process he can use.

I put a 4/2 saddle on it and plugged the top.

Peace to all, including all the code nuts

Keith G.

Jerry, I would like to know how you think this can be repaired to code for $2 more? The only way to do it to code is replace the full length of the pipe from the break to the end of the run. Other wise there will be at least two joints in the pipe with some kind of slip joints over the pipes to keep them in place, or the use of some kind of saddle. Can't wait for reply.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Cut a piece of a coffee can to fit over the hole and use a wire coat hanger to secure it in place. That will last you until you die and then it will be someone elses problem....the kids.....They need something to do in 40 years anyway!

I was thinking a wad of chewing gum and a rubber band.

Originally Posted by Tony Mount

The only way to do it to code is replace the full length of the pipe from the break to the end of the run.

Nope, that is why you are way out of your league, Tony. You continually show us that you are a minimalist who only and strictly adheres to minimum SoP.

Yet, even in this case, when you replace that piece of pipe, full length as you said, how would you connect it to the other existing underground pipe?

Other wise there will be at least two joints in the pipe with some kind of slip joints over the pipes to keep them in place, ...

Yeppers.

Let's say the hole he knocked into the top of the pipe was 2" across, and it cracked out to 4" to 6" across, so you cut out 6" of pipe (have to get to good, solid, not cracked pipe), buy two Fernco type fittings approved for underground use, get a 6" piece of pipe, make sure to debur all the ends, then assemble the two fittings and the 6" section of pipe. You now have a code approved repair.

What is the price of a full piece of pipe? The price of the saddle and its straps - you certainly would not want to just glue it on, you would want a "proper" saddle fitting (as 'proper' as possible, anyway, given that saddle fittings are "not proper" as they are "not allowed"), now, compare the price of that 6" of pipe and those two fittings to the full piece of pipe (and you would still need two similar fittings, or, compare the price of a "proper" saddle fitting (albeit there is no such thing as a 'proper' saddle fitting) to the 6" piece of pipe and the two Fernco type fittings.

In once case (the full pipe) the two Fernco type fittings would be less than the other repair, especially if you counted the digging out of around the pipe to replace it, and in the other case the two Fernco type fittings would probably be equal to or only slightly more than (hence my $2 more) a "proper" saddle fitting and a "proper" repair using a saddle fitting, with the understanding that there is "no proper saddle fitting" and thus there is "no proper saddle fitting repair".

In fact, that repair with the two Fernco type fittings may actually be less than either of the other two repairs.

Honestly, cutting out a damaged section of PVC drain pipe in Florida's sandy soil and repairing it takes less time than reading this entire thread.

I know you don't want to dig it up...but that would be a good place for a clean-out. I'd put in a 'T' or a 'long-sweep'. We do it 'here' all the time. An extra clean-out between the home and street.... a good thing. And...if you wind up getting a 'plug' there...pop-the-cap and run a snake...voila! Your done! I can't recall ever seeing a residential structure with too-many clean-outs. Ditto for sanitary laterals from home-to-street. If your driveway is asphalt or anything other than placed concrete...you'll need a concrete-collar to support/protect the riser and the repair underneath.

S'ok since he's blogged open public invitations, there will be a visitor soon enough.Public and ecosystem health protection, is not an arena for cavilier attitudes.

Let's say the hole he knocked into the top of the pipe was 2" across, and it cracked out to 4" to 6" across, so you cut out 6" of pipe (have to get to good, solid, not cracked pipe), buy two Fernco type fittings approved for underground use, get a 6" piece of pipe, make sure to debur all the ends, then assemble the two fittings and the 6" section of pipe. You now have a code approved repair.

When you say "Fernco":

Are you talking about a rubber coupling with no stop and two stainless clamps?

Or are you talking about a shielded coupling with a stop and fully jacketed stainless band?

While both are approved for underground use -- Only one of the above is approved for burial beneath a concrete or asphalt slab.

Jerry your such an ass, just like I said in my post, a piece of pipe with 2 joints with some kind of slip joints ( you say Fernco ) Yeppers, why I'am I out of my league, ....... I SAID THE SAME THING YOU JERK.... In fact your post - P3003.2 Prohibited joints.
Running threads and bands shall not be used in the drainage system. It says that the use of bands shall not be used which is used on all Fernco fittings, and I'am out of my league " that is why you are way out of your league, Tony. You continually
Quote:"
Other wise there will be at least two joints in the pipe with some kind of slip joints over the pipes to keep them in place, ...
Yeppers.

Let's say the hole he knocked into the top of the pipe was 2" across, and it cracked out to 4" to 6" across, so you cut out 6" of pipe (have to get to good, solid, not cracked pipe), buy two Fernco type fittings approved for underground use, get a 6" piece of pipe, make sure to debur all the ends, then assemble the two fittings and the 6" section of pipe. You now have a code approved repair.

Originally Posted by Tony Mount

Jerry your such an ass, just like I said in my post, a piece of pipe with 2 joints with some kind of slip joints ( you say Fernco ) Yeppers, why I'am I out of my league, ....... I SAID THE SAME THING YOU JERK....

Tony, yes, you are the jerk, and your response shows it.

You said: (bold and underlining is mine)

Originally Posted by Tony Mount

Other wise there will be at least two joints in the pipe with some kind of slip joints over the pipes to keep them in place, or the use of some kind of saddle.

There would be two of those Fernco type fittings EVEN WHEN replacing an entire piece, ... unless you could go far enough back to get some 90 degree sweeps in the dug out trench which would allow you to flex the pipe enough to assemble it without Fernco type fittings.

Then, to further show us you are out of your league:

In fact your post - P3003.2 Prohibited joints.
Running threads and bands shall not be used in the drainage system. It says that the use of bands shall not be used which is used on all Fernco fittings, and I'am out of my league ...

That is not referring to Fernco fittings, which, by the way, are not "bands" but which use bands to hold the rubber fittings tight to the pipes the fittings are over. "Bands" would simply be "bands" wrapped around the pipe.

Of course, if you were in Illinois ... then maybe they would consider Fernco fittings "bands" in the same way in which they consider Air Admittance Valves to be "mechanical vents".

"Also, please note that the construction codes are just that = codes, not laws."

?????????????????????
Lets see, the "codes" are adopted by state and local governments or authorities having jurisdiction. This is usually done thru legislation, right?

Since building owners can be prosecuted for having unsafe buildings, etc, it seems to me that, just maybe, the codes might be law.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Since building owners can be prosecuted for having unsafe buildings, etc, it seems to me that, just maybe, the codes might be law.

In Florida, where the original poster is, the code *IS* law, it is Florida Statute.

. . . sigh.

There are many ways to skin this cat and many are acceptable.

The only add that I have is that if your sewer line is running even close to full, it is WAY undersized.

Yyeeeaah seriously guys... I could've repaired this the right way quicker than it took me to read through all these strange replies...

If you see the top of the pipe it's not going to take but a minute to dig to the bottom, and...

If you're going to the store to get a saddle fitting or some other such repair you're going to be very close to the no-hub couplings.

I'd expect these kinds of solutions (I like the coffeecan! hadn't thought of that one) from a DIY forum, but a forum of inspectors?

Not that it matters, he said he "fixed" it some 14 posts ago. There's probably a car parked on top of it by now hehe

Originally Posted by Joshua Hardesty

I'd expect these kinds of solutions (I like the coffeecan! hadn't thought of that one) from a DIY forum, but a forum of inspectors?

I actually saw a repair like this...that's why I posted it!