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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Beaches of South Walton, FL
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    55

    Default Is there a P Trap?

    Hello All - I performed an inspection on a new construction condo today, and the bathroom sinks all had this nice looking drain on them. HOWEVER, it doesn't really look like a P Trap to me.

    Has anyone seen one of these? Are they acceptable and meet the P Trap requirement? Thoughts?

    Thanks -

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
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    1,628

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Looks like a new version of the old bathtub drum trap (no longer allowed). I have no idea if this new version is allowed.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
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    2,478

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Department of Redundancy Department
    http://www.FullCircleInspect.com/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,519

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Looks to be a UK product.

    BT17 - Chrome Bottle Trap


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Beaches of South Walton, FL
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Thanks I really appreciate the information. 4600 inspections and never saw one of these...but now I know.

    Be safe -

    JD Johnson
    Beach To Bayou Property Inspections

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Next question is "is it approved for use in the US?"

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Western Massachusetts
    Posts
    536

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    All that chrome marred by the ugly PVC adapter and lack of an escutcheon...

    Check with your local code organization as to whether bottle traps are allowed in your jurisdiction.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
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    4,086

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    The pictured trap is NOT integral to the fixture. This is not a p-trap.

    It would fall in the category of "partition trap". These traps do NOT self-scour. They are (or at least were, last time I checked) expressly prohibited in Illinois, Chicago, NYS, NYC, and NJ. Local jurisdictions with authority may further limit or prohibit use based on local ammendment/ordinance/code.

    Some of these traps have internal plastic, glass, etc. lining and partitions and may qualify as "resistant to corrosion and degradation"; key is the vented status of the arm and the "size" of the partition trap (so that it does not slug/blow-out or syphon dry) and acceptance or prohibition by local authority.

    Changes to recent editions of UPC and IPC provide for exceptions allowing them...sometimes (see below), subject to acceptance/approvals, sizing, and true venting.

    See also this thread on "another" forum: Looking for comments on bottle traps [Archive] - Terry Love's Plumbing & Remodel DIY forum



    2009 International Plumbing Code – Section 1002.2 Design of traps.

    Fixture traps shall be self-scouring

    Fixture traps shall not have interior partitions, exceptwhere such traps are integral with the fixture or where such traps are constructed of an approved material that is resistant to corrosion and degradation. Slip joints shall be made with an approved elastomeric gasket and shall be installed only on the trap inlet, trap outlet and within the trap seal.



    2009 International Plumbing Code — Section 1002.3 —Prohibited traps

    The following types of traps are prohibited:

    1. Traps that depend on moving parts to maintain the seal.
    2. Bell traps.
    3. Crown-vented traps.
    4. Traps not integral with a fixture and that depend on interior partitions for the seal, except those traps constructed of an approved material that is resistant to corrosion and degradation.
    5. “S” traps.
    6. Drum traps.

    Exception: Drum traps used as solids interceptors and drum traps serving chemical waste systems shall not be prohibited.

    2009 International Plumbing Code — Section 1002.5 Size of fixture traps.

    Fixture trap size shall be sufficient to drain the fixture rapidly and not less than the size indicated in Table 709.1.A trap shall not be larger than the drainage pipe into which the trap discharges.

    2009 Uniform Plumbing Code – Section 1002.0 - Traps Protected by Vent Pipes.

    1002.1 Each plumbing fixture trap, except as otherwise provided in this code, shall be protected against siphonage, back-pressure, and air circulation shall be assured throughout all parts of the drainage system by means of a vent pipe installed in accordance with the requirements of this code.

    1002.2 Each fixture trap shall have a protecting vent so located that the developed length of the trap arm from the trap weir to the inner edge of the vent shall be within the distance given in Table 10-1, but in no case less than two (2) times the diameter of the trap arm.

    The Uniform Plumbing Code has the following language addressing traps



    2009 Uniform Plumbing Code — Section 1004.0 - Traps — Prohibited

    No form of trap that depends for its seal upon the action of movable parts shall be used. No trap that has concealed interior partitions, except those of plastic, glass, or similar corrosion-resisting material, shall be used. "S" traps, bell traps, and crown-vented traps shall be prohibited. No fixture shall be double trapped. Drum and bottle traps shall be installed only for special conditions. No trap shall be installed without a vent, except as otherwise provided in this code.

    Hope that Helps.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
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    4,311

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    2009 International Plumbing Code — Section 1002.5 Size of fixture traps.

    Fixture trap size shall be sufficient to drain the fixture rapidly and not less than the size indicated in Table 709.1.A trap shall not be larger than the drainage pipe into which the trap discharges.
    IPC
    - TABLE 709.1
    - - DRAINAGE FIXTURE UNITS FOR FIXTURES AND GROUPS
    - - - FIXTURE TYPE - - DRAINAGE FIXTURE UNIT VALUE AS LOAD FACTORS - - MINIMUM SIZE OF TRAP (inches)
    - - - Lavatory - - 1 - - 1 1/4

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    That sure does not look like it could possibly meet the minimum trap size of 1 1/4 inches - that would need to be 2 1/2" diameter plus the thickness of the metal outside and divider.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    IPC
    - TABLE 709.1
    - - DRAINAGE FIXTURE UNITS FOR FIXTURES AND GROUPS
    - - - FIXTURE TYPE - - DRAINAGE FIXTURE UNIT VALUE AS LOAD FACTORS - - MINIMUM SIZE OF TRAP (inches)
    - - - Lavatory - - 1 - - 1 1/4



    That sure does not look like it could possibly meet the minimum trap size of 1 1/4 inches - that would need to be 2 1/2" diameter plus the thickness of the metal outside and divider.
    .
    ...
    ...

    Attached Files Attached Files
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,245

    Default Re: Is there a P Trap?

    Billy,

    Thank you for documenting what I said.

    The trap has to meet the minimum diameter, not just the trap arm section.

    The first link you posted shows the O.D. of the trap assembly as 2-3/16", which includes all material thicknesses, and 1-1/4" down and back up is 2-1/2". Just does not jive.

    The second link does not show the O.D., but it is likely similar, with the same math problems.

    Must be one of those "engineering math" things where engineers can sign and seal the document and if they say it works, then that is accepted as being okay.

    That "engineering math" falls under:
    -R104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment. (rest of code section not posted, just posted the heading)


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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