Thread: disposal and sink drain uphill

hey all

found this today on 1921 year old house. drain directly off garbage disposal--only one drain. can potatoe peels swim up hill ??? this is wrong yes

cvf

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senior moment again--they are coming faster theses days

pictures

Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET

senior moment again--they are coming faster theses days

pictures

I guess the dishwasher pump is helping out a bit. We sure see some funny stuff.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

I guess the dishwasher pump is helping out a bit. We sure see some funny stuff.

1/4' rule holds for lots of components including 1 1/2 " drain pipe.
Not thrilled seeing the dishwasher attached to the disposal either.Some areas require a air gap and I like to see that hose all the way up to prevent any chance of contamination to the dishwasher.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

1/4' rule holds for lots of components including 1 1/2 " drain pipe.
Not thrilled seeing the dishwasher attached to the disposal either.Some areas require a air gap and I like to see that hose all the way up to prevent any chance of contamination to the dishwasher.

That dishwasher hookup is pretty standard around here.

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

That dishwasher hookup is pretty standard around here.

Yeah ,may depend on area.
Here is what I use in reports.

Airgaps are now standard equipment to assure a separation between supply and waste water. It is advised that either an airgap or a high loop be installed between the dishwasher and the waste connection.

I think in Chicago the disposal hook up is not really allowed as if the drain gets plugged the water can be forced into the dishwasher with no gap.

If I see it is hooked to a disposal I would defiantly be recommending air gap as needed though it never gets enforced around here .

Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET

hey all

found this today on 1921 year old house. drain directly off garbage disposal--only one drain. can potatoe peels swim up hill ??? this is wrong yes

cvf

That's disgusting,

It probably would have taken less than two hours to cut out the back of that cabinet. lower the drain and install a new cabinet back.

That chrome offset probably cost them twice what the materials to do this right would have cost.

And the lack of an air gap definitely wouldn't fly in my neck of the woods.

Along with the other backwards things out here in Oregon, air gaps aren't standard..... high-loops for the drain hoses are the intended installation. At least it leaves a nice knockout for a soap dispenser in the sink

Prohibited (the DW connection, that is) by the IL State Plumbing code (Sec 890.710) in any case.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Along with the other backwards things out here in Oregon, air gaps aren't standard..... high-loops for the drain hoses are the intended installation. At least it leaves a nice knockout for a soap dispenser in the sink

Right.

They adopt the code -- And then they eviscerate it.

I hold a Specialty/Residential License down there -- But I'll be damned if I'll ever work there again.

Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders

Right.

They adopt the code -- And then they eviscerate it.

I hold a Specialty/Residential License down there -- But I'll be damned if I'll ever work there again.

Too funny.... I was more thinking of the politics and general unorthodox nature of our state but you're exactly right about our "code" too.

And the not working thing shouldn't be a problem.... nobody is. Our business killing policies pretty much have that locked up.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

1/4' rule holds for lots of components including 1 1/2 " drain pipe.

Not sure what is meant by that?

Do you mean it needs to be 1/4" per foot DOWNHILL, or that 1/4" per foot UPHILL is okay as long as it is 1/4" per foot?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Not sure what is meant by that?

Do you mean it needs to be 1/4" per foot DOWNHILL, or that 1/4" per foot UPHILL is okay as long as it is 1/4" per foot?

Well, since you don't set pipes on hills I'm not sure what you mean

Come on JP..... you REALLY don't know what he meant?

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Come on JP..... you REALLY don't know what he meant?

He said "1/4' rule " ... which is why I spelled it out in my question ... I have never seen a slope of " 1/4' " ... 1/4" PER FOOT yes, but not 1/4 FOOT (that's 3 inches), besides, he is not texting here, so there is no need to save characters and try to abbreviate things (or stinntscattat ) and his statement did not indicate he found anything wrong with going UPHILL (sloped uphill versus sloped downhill).

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Well, since you don't set pipes on hills I'm not sure what you mean

Come on JP..... you REALLY don't know what he meant?

Jerry knew exactly what he meant, Matt, typos and all.

Jerry just has an obsessive compulsive need to be an arsehole every once in a while.

No big thang -- I can relate.

Ha ha
I sure hope a group of pro's know what I meant unless 101 speak is needed at all times.IMHO (that's text speak Jerry).
P.S, I often do reply from my phone but some of you old geezers have no idea what that means past being grammar police.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Not sure what is meant by that?

Do you mean it needs to be 1/4" per foot DOWNHILL, or that 1/4" per foot UPHILL is okay as long as it is 1/4" per foot?

the 1/4" rule does not apply to traps, traps must be set level to maintain the proper water seal, after the trap arm enters the plumbing drainage the 1/4" pitch must be maintained

I think a "Potatoe" is a fungus. But on the other hand, potato peels and the other food waste will be forced up the extended trap, due to the water mix. However, water will always stand in the disposer. Actually, the inch or so of water standing in the disposer, will provide the hydraulic force to push the food up the ramp. Another example of back-yard plumbing.

Originally Posted by Richard D'Aquanno

the 1/4" rule does not apply to traps, traps must be set level to maintain the proper water seal, after the trap arm enters the plumbing drainage the 1/4" pitch must be maintained

Thanks, Richard. you are correct that air must be able to flow back along the trap arm from the vertical stack. So the top of the trap arm pipe at its drain end must be above the bottom of the pipe at the trap end. Keeping it level would achieve that regardless of the length of the arm.

OK so which is it? Who says it needs to be level and who says it needs to be nearly level?

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Thanks, Richard. you are correct that air must be able to flow back along the trap arm from the vertical stack. So the top of the trap arm pipe at its drain end must be above the bottom of the pipe at the trap end. Keeping it level would achieve that regardless of the length of the arm.

OK so which is it? Who says it needs to be level and who says it needs to be nearly level?

As a Plumber, the portion of the trap arm that I stub into the sink box has just enough grade to barely register on my torpedo level -- Likely just a 1/16 of an inch per foot.

Tubular plastic p-traps can be 'trained' to flex a little, but schedule 40 plastic union or tubular brass traps can be very unforgiving.

Originally Posted by Richard D'Aquanno

the 1/4" rule does not apply to traps, traps must be set level to maintain the proper water seal, after the trap arm enters the plumbing drainage the 1/4" pitch must be maintained

Of course 'the trap' must be level, and, of course 'the trap arm' must not be level, the trap arm must slope DOWN to the vent.

Not sure where you got anything about 'the trap' not being level.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Thanks, Richard. you are correct that air must be able to flow back along the trap arm from the vertical stack. So the top of the trap arm pipe at its drain end must be above the bottom of the pipe at the trap end. Keeping it level would achieve that regardless of the length of the arm.

OK so which is it? Who says it needs to be level and who says it needs to be nearly level?

It is 'not allowed' to be level, it is 'required' to be sloped.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

It is 'not allowed' to be level, it is 'required' to be sloped.

national standard plumbing code 5.3.3 traps MUST be level


5.3.3 Trap Setting and Protection
Traps shall be set level with respect to their water seals and, where necessary, shall be protected from freez- ing.


funny thing is, for the last 20 years the code states the same info

but to get back on subject the picture shows the installation in wrong and need to be changed

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

It is 'not allowed' to be level, it is 'required' to be sloped.

And most of the folks forced into putting your nugget of wisdom into practical use will tell you to get bent, Jerry.

Seriously -- Walk a mile in the shoes of the folks you're foisting your limited, book learned knowledge upon before pontificating.

And while you're at it, take a few moments to edify yourself on the limiting factors of the products we're forced to deal with.

Prick.

Busy with all NACHI video going free to members,New beta version of Home Inspector Pro,and a new domain,plus work however to explain my original remark I was not being literal to the trap but to plumbing drains in general not to mention flue slope and deck slope.
The quarter inch rule seems to apply in many aspects of systems and components.
Seems every time I post a self installed guardian of code goes off the handle.
I use code to back up my opinion but no one better pretend to be a code Inspector in the report or they will lose in court big time.
Anyway ,just thought I would explain my earlier post after the "hot heads" cooled off.
Have a great weekend inspecting to all.

Originally Posted by Richard D'Aquanno

national standard plumbing code 5.3.3 traps MUST be level


5.3.3 Trap Setting and Protection
Traps shall be set level with respect to their water seals and, where necessary, shall be protected from freez- ing.


funny thing is, for the last 20 years the code states the same info

but to get back on subject the picture shows the installation in wrong and need to be changed

Richard,

Are you simply NOT READING what I am writing ... or are you just ignoring what I wrote and you read?

(bold red is my highlighting to help you read what I wrote)

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Of course 'the trap' must be level, and, of course 'the trap arm' must not be level, the trap arm must slope DOWN to the vent.

Not sure where you got anything about 'the trap' not being level.

Yet ANOTHER ONE who CANNOT READ (or simply chooses to not read) what is written:

Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders

And most of the folks forced into putting your nugget of wisdom into practical use will tell you to get bent, Jerry.

Seriously -- Walk a mile in the shoes of the folks you're foisting your limited, book learned knowledge upon before pontificating.

And while you're at it, take a few moments to edify yourself on the limiting factors of the products we're forced to deal with.

Prick.

Or, maybe they can actually read, maybe they just do not understand the difference between a "trap" and the "trap arm"?

no i did read it, and yes the trap arm can extend into the wall to the vent
i am looking at what is visible under the sink and the trap arm is part of the trap

not trying to bash anyone here, if i see something that involves my trade i try to post on it

Originally Posted by Richard D'Aquanno

no i did read it, and yes the trap arm can extend into the wall to the vent

Richard,

Again, based on your response, you are not *reading* what is written - you are applying what you want it to say before *reading* and and then responding to what you want it to say.

NO WHERE in there as anyone, least of all me, said that a trap arm cannot extend into the wall to the vent ... what is being said, and which you are either not reading or ignoring is that THE TRAP ARM ... THE ... TRAP ... ARM ... is required to be sloped down from the trap to the vent.

Repeat that ... THE TRAP ARM ... not 'the trap' and and not anything else ...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Richard,

Again, based on your response, you are not *reading* what is written - you are applying what you want it to say before *reading* and and then responding to what you want it to say.

NO WHERE in there as anyone, least of all me, said that a trap arm cannot extend into the wall to the vent ... what is being said, and which you are either not reading or ignoring is that THE TRAP ARM ... THE ... TRAP ... ARM ... is required to be sloped down from the trap to the vent.

Repeat that ... THE TRAP ARM ... not 'the trap' and and not anything else ...

*chuckles*

You're such an ass, Jerry.

Is it any wonder that a few of your Peers say they wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire?

And that's a direct quote from two of your Peers in Ormond Beach -- Most of the other quotes regarding you from your local Peers aren't clean enough to post in this forum.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Richard,

Again, based on your response, you are not *reading* what is written - you are applying what you want it to say before *reading* and and then responding to what you want it to say.

NO WHERE in there as anyone, least of all me, said that a trap arm cannot extend into the wall to the vent ... what is being said, and which you are either not reading or ignoring is that THE TRAP ARM ... THE ... TRAP ... ARM ... is required to be sloped down from the trap to the vent.

Repeat that ... THE TRAP ARM ... not 'the trap' and and not anything else ...

again, you,re not listening, think about it first and picture the trap, from the "u"bend ….trap weir to the wall is considered the trap arm and that is the only part i am talking about. do we know where the vent is …no, it could be directly behind the wall or 5' away, we are looking at, and talking about the visible trap and trap arm in the picture

I’m curious, how long has that been in the current configuration and does it drain?

jeff

not sure why that is relevant. it is draining up hill. would you write it up ??

what happens when it doesn't ??

code says 1/4 " slope per foot--downward.

cvf

Not sure it is relevant, just curious.
Yes I would put it in the report.
and if it stopped draining, call the plumber.

Hey Jeff, I think it is draining based on the fact it is still there. the water is coming from higher up and is going to a lower level. just not right away for all of it. the water is going to rise up high enough to drain just not all of it and properly. the garbage disposal will push some of it out too. but the loop will hold a lot back from draining properly. And yes by all means write it up.