Thread: Hydrotherapy Tub

On an inspection last week I filled the hydrotherapy tub for testing. The tub had a push button type control that did not respond after several attempts. I reported that the tub did not respond to the controls as well as not being on a dedicated GFCI circuit.....That being said...I drained the tub, did my normal walk through of the home to make sure everything was off and left with the realtor.

The next day the owner's daughter went to the home to water plants and heard a humming and smelled "burning wire". She turned the tub off and promptly called the agent who promptly called me.

Besides burning out the pump...can someone explain what might have happened for the motor to kick in after I left and the possible consequences of this.

I feel terrible that this happened, but lucky I didn't burn the house down. I will now unplug the tub if this ever happens again!

Thanks for your help,
Chris

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You left the tub on and it ran dry/not high enough water level. Perhaps you misjudged just how many times you depressed the control, or accidentially engaged it as you drained the tub and/or left the area.Perhaps you initially overfilled the tub, or the "button cover" had grit, bad spring, and didn't make full contact immediately or a delayed start, undervoltage initially, or the pump motor didn't immediately kick in.Did you hear a "hum"? Did you remain in the area while the tub drained completely, or leave the room beforehand?Did you operate any circuit breakers or gfci resets or AFCI resets AFTER your "tub" inspection? Did you return to to check on the status of the tub afterwards to verify the tub was really left "off" and not "on" (I'm thinking you did, and did not return to the tub area afterwards, and/or did not remain in the tub area while the tub was draining).

Thanks for the response H.G.

The home was built in 1964 and did not have GFCI protection. I am confident I did not hear the motor engage during or immediately after my inspection. Can you explain what you mean by overfilling the tub? I filled the tub over the return and the jets. I obviously agree that the tub was left on, by me, when I drained the tub, but never heard a "hum"...I'm sure I could have missed the sound by the draining water. I'm looking more for the reasons why it happened. Thanks.

Tub motor could have been on a wall switch.
How do you know it wasn't protected by GFCI? Some are at the motor outlet under the tub, some are in the bathroom, or toilet room, or closet. Some are on a GFI breaker in the panel.

I'm curious on how you go about testing the whirlpool. I usually fill the tub, turn off the faucets then start the whirlpool. I don't like to have any water running when I test the tub, because I like to hear what the motor sounds like. I also make it a habit to open the access panel and take a good look in there while the whirlpool is running, to check for leaks.

Sorry it happened, but it could have been a lot worse. Looks like you worked for free that day.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Tub motor could have been on a wall switch.
How do you know it wasn't protected by GFCI? Some are at the motor outlet under the tub, some are in the bathroom, or toilet room, or closet. Some are on a GFI breaker in the panel.

I'm curious on how you go about testing the whirlpool. I usually fill the tub, turn off the faucets then start the whirlpool. I don't like to have any water running when I test the tub, because I like to hear what the motor sounds like. I also make it a habit to open the access panel and take a good look in there while the whirlpool is running, to check for leaks.

Sorry it happened, but it could have been a lot worse. Looks like you worked for free that day.

Jack,
The tub was not GFCI protected. I pulled the cover off the tub and tested the outlet the motor was plugged into. I tested the tub the same way as you described.

Okay, number one, just because the receptacle under the deck was not a combination GFCI receptacle, and just because the breaker in the panel was not a gfci breaker does not mean that the tub was not gfci protected. It is common to find a blank gfci installed line side of the receptacle under the deck of the hydromassage or whirlpool tub.

Number two, what the heck to you mean by you "tested" the outlet under the tub?!? And how would you know if there was only ONE circuit supplying power to the hydromassage tub (i.e. separate circuit for inline heater!) For example Eljer "premiere" series whirlpools, etc.

Next, excuse me if I doubt for even a moment the suggestion that the tub was original to the 1964 construction.

As far as the whys and wheres and hows, we can only guess.

For example you have not supplied us with even the basics, regarding the tub unit. What brand? Did you review instructions? Were they not present...perhaps behind the access panel? Air Bath with massage unit? Inline Heater (that usually would require power from two sources, main tub can be shared, inline heater needs the dedicated (individual) circuit.

Next, perhaps the tub has an automatic cleaning and purging cycle (usually kicks in 15-30 minutes after drainage). Your attempts to activate it unsuccessful as they may have been, for what ever reason, even perhaps a faulty control board, may not have prevented a purge cycle, and perhaps, just perhaps that control board is faulty and the purge cycle did not quit after the 2-3 minutes of blow only mode, perhaps it began operating instead of purging, who knows.

However, If you kept hitting the control push button and never went back after inspecting, testing, operating other electrical controls, switches, circuit breakers, etc. Then you likely left it in an on position but while power was off, for example might very well have been a MWBC and with older panel may have had two SP circuit breakers protecting it and one was off.

It seems as though the home is not presently occupied, and the "daughter" comes by to "water the plants". It may have been some time since the tub was operated (more than a month) perhaps filling and draining may have reprimed the recirculation system. Your last push of the button was on, and suction interlock cleared and the motor started running freely thereafter.

Either way, you now know, operating or not, you always go back and check doing a final double-checking walk-through, especially anything you "leak tested" or failed to operate at the time you last operated the controls at the device, before you leave the premises, and make sure all faucets, valves, etc. you turned on are completely off, nothing is on or trying to turn on, and no new puddles or wetness has finally seeped through and appeared. This includes returning thermostats back to their previous set-conditions and "modes" before you arrived. (I recall a HI slaps self in the head experience with having left an oil-fired furnace thermostat set at an inordinately high override temperature for a vacant while on the market, but staged property with a full oil tank as the last man out of a property that the deal didn't complete - that furnace cooked for months and drained the tank down below the sludge, it was an expensive lesson, as the HO got a call from their oil contractor that their tank was horrendously low and their agent let in their service folks in to investigate.

Although you seem emphatic that the circuit supplying power to this tub was not an individual one, you are equally emphatic that there was no GFCI protection for this tub. You have also made a point that the construction was 1964 - I just don't find it reasonable to expect that there have been no alterations whatsoever in any circuit path or other electrical and/or plausable that the installation of a hydromassage/whirlpool tub itself would have been original to the 1964 vintage of the home.

Chris,

The air switch activates a micro switch that turns on the motor. Although I haven't had it happen to me its possible that contact closed later on in the inspection or as other have said through some other action you took. Pay to have the tub serviced or go back and ensure it is working.

I usually will walk the home before I leave looking for heater that are on, new water leaks, lights on, Stove on!!! etc. This way I can say I check and left the home as I found it. If you did this then you can say that the switch is bad...

//Rick

Thanks Rick

I have never taken a Hydro tub motor apart, but I am sure it is not a rubber impeller, like on your outboard motor, that will turn to smoke if you don't have it in the water. That motor should be able to run indefinitely without any problem. If it has to have water in the tub the manufacture is looking at a ton of law suits when the kids leave the motor on (like that has never happened!)

If there was damage, there was something wrong that you did not cause.

You might owe them a couple of dollars for electricity, but that's as far as I would go.

There truly is no one answer!

Pneumatic controls (air tube) switches have been known to do this, a bad relay or newer electronic control systems can delay in response if they have a built in transformers/diodes/rectifiers. and other control parts that can bleed off stored electricity to the relay, or it could be the motor was getting old or the windings need cleaned and was slow starting up. too many variables without troubleshooting.

Originally Posted by Chris Stichter

On an inspection last week I filled the hydrotherapy tub for testing. The tub had a push button type control that did not respond after several attempts. I reported that the tub did not respond to the controls as well as not being on a dedicated GFCI circuit.....That being said...I drained the tub, did my normal walk through of the home to make sure everything was off and left with the realtor.

The next day the owner's daughter went to the home to water plants and heard a humming and smelled "burning wire". She turned the tub off and promptly called the agent who promptly called me.

Besides burning out the pump...can someone explain what might have happened for the motor to kick in after I left and the possible consequences of this.

I feel terrible that this happened, but lucky I didn't burn the house down. I will now unplug the tub if this ever happens again!

Thanks for your help,
Chris

I vote for the second part of Norman's post. The pump was probably locked up since it likely hadn't been used in a long time. I've had them start very slowly multiple times. After a while, the pump motor kicked loose and ran with what was then a dry tub.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Okay, number one ... Snipped mini-rant ....

Perhaps, just perhaps he means he inserted a standard receptacle test device into the receptacle which the pump was plugged. The tester indicated a normal live circuit. When he pushed the GFCI test button, there was no change in circuit status. That indication, by normal HI practices, would indicate an unprotected circuit. Where the trigger device is, or could be, or isn't at all has no bearing on the case in point.

Perhaps exhibiting a little patience before storming off into a left-rant-field would better serve you and others that read this forum.

Now as far as the delay of the system turning on, I've had that happen to me also. At least once was because the tub in question had internal electronic water level sensors that would not allow the pump turn on until the water level was at least 6 inches above the jets. Sometimes switches don't always work like we would expect them to every time. This type of switch is designed to expect actuation from inside the tub. I don't know many home inspectors are going to climb into a full tub just to push an actuator at the correct angle and distance. To drift a bit here, I have had some summer inspections when that nice full tub of cool water looked awfully inviting.

I think the thing to learn here is, IF, a jetted tub doesn't turn on within a reasonable time and after a reasonable number of attempts, unplug the motor or turn of the circuit breaker for the tub. Leave a note for the homeowner if applicable or contact the listing agent.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

Perhaps exhibiting a little patience before storming off into a left-rant-field would better serve you and others that read this forum.

Amen to that!

S.B.Your "theory" and "regular practices" is absolutely meaningless.Expecting a duplex type receptacle to have both receptacles on the same circuit! It is perfectly possible to split the yoke. In fact, that was common practice "back in the day".Such a practice and faulty logic is neither standard HI practice, nor technically accurate. If you want to check a receptacle you check the receptacle, period. Checking the second receptacle merely from the face with a $4.00 3-light plug in device doesn't tell you squat about the first.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Checking the second receptacle merely from the face with a $4.00 3-light plug in device doesn't tell you squat about the first.

No it doesn't!

But your arrogant replies tells us a lot about YOU!

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

S.B.Your "theory" and "regular practices" is absolutely meaningless.Expecting a duplex type receptacle to have both receptacles on the same circuit! It is perfectly possible to split the yoke. In fact, that was common practice "back in the day".Such a practice and faulty logic is neither standard HI practice, nor technically accurate. If you want to check a receptacle you check the receptacle, period. Checking the second receptacle merely from the face with a $4.00 3-light plug in device doesn't tell you squat about the first.

Question HG: Why do you put so much effort into being combative? Who said it was a duplex receptacle? Who said he didn't pull out the power plug and test that half of the receptacle it it was a duplex? Whether the receptacle was GFCI protected or not isn't important. Whether it was one circuit or two isn't the point. The inspector reported the condition as found as should any inspector. Reporting a "possible" safety issue trumps determining the technical reason anytime. Call for a competent licensed electrician to assess the power connection and repair as required. I'd much rather have someone call me to complain about having to pay an electrician for nothing than receiving a certified letter notifying me of a lawsuit because the tub's electrical connection was faulty and I didn't report it. As a result of that failure, someone died or was injured.

The error was leaving power to the pump when it didn't start as expected. I still learn things even though I'm old as dirt. I don't assume to know everything or feel I must impress that opinion upon others. I learned a lesson from the post that I can apply to more than just hydro-jet tubs. Perhaps the OP will also help others improve their service and self protection.

Right on SB!
Glad HG is only a snowbird and not a full time resident here as I can only imagine his impatience carrying over to road rage with the number of slow drivers we have here.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

Question HG:
The error was leaving power to the pump when it didn't start as expected. I still learn things even though I'm old as dirt. I don't assume to know everything or feel I must impress that opinion upon others. I learned a lesson from the post that I can apply to more than just hydro-jet tubs. Perhaps the OP will also help others improve their service and self protection.

Is it our duty, or responsibility, to disconnect or otherwise disable a component that did not function as intended or expected, at the time of inspection?

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Is it our duty, or responsibility, to disconnect or otherwise disable a component that did not function as intended or expected, at the time of inspection?

Probably not. However, it may be something to consider in certain situations. In this instance my calling it an "error" would not be a correct assessment. If the pump started and ran for a short time then quit it would be a different matter. I wonder when the pump started running? Everyone I turn on can be heard all over the house unless it's a really big house. As far as being liable for damage to the pump - I don't think so unless there is a switch with an ON/OFF indicator. If the pump wasn't running when the inspection was over and the inspector left, how would he know if the switch was ON and if the control system was defective or not.

Originally Posted by Chris Stichter

On an inspection last week I filled the hydrotherapy tub for testing. The tub had a push button type control that did not respond after several attempts. I reported that the tub did not respond to the controls as well as not being on a dedicated GFCI circuit.....That being said...I drained the tub, did my normal walk through of the home to make sure everything was off and left with the realtor.

The next day the owner's daughter went to the home to water plants and heard a humming and smelled "burning wire". She turned the tub off and promptly called the agent who promptly called me.

Besides burning out the pump...can someone explain what might have happened for the motor to kick in after I left and the possible consequences of this.

I feel terrible that this happened, but lucky I didn't burn the house down. I will now unplug the tub if this ever happens again!

Thanks for your help,
Chris

My guess is that someone was in the house after you left and cut the pump on. If I had a buyer and a agent as a witness that the pump was not running when you left I would not accept the blame.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

My guess is that someone was in the house after you left and cut the pump on. If I had a buyer and a agent as a witness that the pump was not running when you left I would not accept the blame.

True. Sometimes the client wants to poke at things. I had a old guy call me up wanting to know why I had left his dishwasher full of water that had flooded all over his kitchen. I took me a while to figure out what the heck he was talking about. He wasn't very rational. Long story short - the client had been playing with the dishwasher control buttons after I had already determined that the controls were defective. Seems he got it to fill then got it to turn off but didn't empty it. Never saying a thing to me when I was elsewhere in the house.

You surely must keep an eye on the clients. They love to push buttons of things that you can not get to start, pound on windows that are stuck, flip switches on that you have turned off.

I won't offer any advice about the hot tub motor other than always get a witness. If something dosen't work, get the client in the room and show them that it isn't working, If you find K & T wiring used as a wash line that has power, show the client. The seller always says everything worked and all K & T wiring is disconnected.

Cover Your A#%

I worked on these for the factory for years and sometimes the switch at bottom due to several reasons sticks and wont kick to on or off position right all the way but with time works its way to where it needs to be. I have had several callbacks from people saying there tub turned on in the middle of the night and they unplugged it. I would just replace pump as we didn't service the switches although sometimes they can be repaired. Best bet if it doesn't work unplug and note in your report that you did. As a side note some mechanical push button tubs have a little metal water sensor that water has to complete circuit for pump to run and they are caulked in back. sometimes these will loose continuity and pump will not work.
Derek Dobyns
House Detectives
630-849-1671

I have experienced the sticky button. It will kick in after a couple of retrys. I've been lucky that the same thing has not happened to me, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

One thing with pushbuttons is, I tend to say to myself "On, off. On, off". Just "on" without the "off" wouldn't feel right.

The pump should be on a GFCI, so you could argue that the lack of GF protection, beside being a serious safety concern, has lead to the pump failure. A seized motor would trip the GFCI breaker, I would expect.
If it has in fact failed? It might be just fine, after all.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

My guess is that someone was in the house after you left and cut the pump on. If I had a buyer and a agent as a witness that the pump was not running when you left I would not accept the blame.

*** I agree with James. Have the the Buyer's Agent get a copy of the showings from the Listing Agent's keybox to see if you were the last party in the residence on that particular day. If not, someone else definitely could've tried to run the spa. Good Luck !!!

It is really helpful to read these issues that come up to help reinforce my behavior during an inspection. I have a camera that also records video, when I come across an item such as this or a pool equipment issue (loud pump, leaks etc.) I use the video function of my camera, let my client know the issue & save the video file for my records. As far as testing the electrical, I never claim to be an electrical expert so I use my 3 prong tester, if it doesn't trip a GFI I report it accordingly, if there is no access to to the outlet or pump I report it accordingly. I think in the future I will use the un-plug & report method to CMA

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

True. Sometimes the client wants to poke at things. I had a old guy call me up wanting to know why I had left his dishwasher full of water that had flooded all over his kitchen. I took me a while to figure out what the heck he was talking about. He wasn't very rational. Long story short - the client had been playing with the dishwasher control buttons after I had already determined that the controls were defective. Seems he got it to fill then got it to turn off but didn't empty it. Never saying a thing to me when I was elsewhere in the house.

I had a line blow off of the disposal connection when I was running the dishwasher. It seems that the plastic plug was never popped out. I turned it off and cleaned up and took a picture of it all. The client shows up and what does he do ... turns the dishwasher on and I had not hooked the line up yet. Yup, flooded the kitchen from under the sink again. Nothing damaged but the carpet was a bit damp at the edges next to the kitchen. The seller gets my number to complain to me and starts in with the mess so I explained it to him about the plugged not being knocked out. His words " Nonsense, I have been using that dishwasher for a week!" I had even left a note for the seller about the matter.

I have also found mostly on lower end tubs with air switch that if they sit for awhile the motors are not made to start under a big load and humidity and use of tub without motor locks them up. Beyond normal duty as inspector but some have a hole in back center you can spin with screw driver and free up and it is as good as new or pull top discharge and spin impeller. I have seen pumps also run on for hours without seizing motor up or tripping GFCI but heat up rubber on the seal between pump and motor and leak at that point. Factory water test units before leaving but doesn't always catch all leaks of course and I always wondered how many times this was due to someone in trades turning on power and plumber left pump plugged in and wasn't caught till later and seal distorted causing leak and of course it was never found until drywall landed on the 2000.00 dining room table and warped the wood floors.

I inspected a bank repo the other day that plumber went through after water was turned on. client was rushing me and didn't want to wait for tub to fill.. I insisted. Sure enough. kicked on pump and a few minutes later ceiling dripping pipe cracked from holding water and freezing. Was not rushed anymore. If they were home alone after move in and ran tub who knows how much water they would have pumped onto the floor below not to mention the lawsuit that would follow.

Originally Posted by Chris Stichter

On an inspection last week I filled the hydrotherapy tub for testing. The tub had a push button type control that did not respond after several attempts. I reported that the tub did not respond to the controls as well as not being on a dedicated GFCI circuit.....That being said...I drained the tub, did my normal walk through of the home to make sure everything was off and left with the realtor.

The next day the owner's daughter went to the home to water plants and heard a humming and smelled "burning wire". She turned the tub off and promptly called the agent who promptly called me.

Besides burning out the pump...can someone explain what might have happened for the motor to kick in after I left and the possible consequences of this.

I feel terrible that this happened, but lucky I didn't burn the house down. I will now unplug the tub if this ever happens again!

Thanks for your help,
Chris

One reason that we all need to have GL insurance. My guess is that the switch is or was defective and it decided to work. On the other hand it could be that the gnomes came out to play during the night and hit the switch.

Originally Posted by Bob Wisnewski

Right on SB!
Glad HG is only a snowbird and not a full time resident here as I can only imagine his impatience carrying over to road rage with the number of slow drivers we have here.

Ahh... my grasshopper... I take offense with the lumping all us Snowbirds with HG!!!

Slow drivers in Florida???? Just returned from my first "Snowbirding" and I must say the drivers are crazy in Florida!!! Cut across three lanes, high speed---no signals.... make a right turn from left lane---no signals... stay in left lane for miles.... Any signaling done while I was there (3 months by the way) was done by out-of-staters!!! The road rage I witnessed was from Floridians. Sorry BW.....

Rich

It is common in this area for the electrician to run the tub through a wall switch even if it has its own switch. I did an inspection a while back that had been inspected by another inspector. He reported that the whirlpool tub did not work. When I did my inspection, I found that the tub was controlled by a wall switch and it worked fine. (Made a lot of brownie points with the customer for that)

What probably happened is that when trying the pneumatic switch, it ended up in the on position. It would not let the pump run if the wall switch was not also in the on position.
Someone probably came through later and hit the switches trying to turn off all the lights before they left and that turned the pump on.

Switch and Relay

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I have never taken a Hydro tub motor apart, but I am sure it is not a rubber impeller, like on your outboard motor, that will turn to smoke if you don't have it in the water. That motor should be able to run indefinitely without any problem. If it has to have water in the tub the manufacture is looking at a ton of law suits when the kids leave the motor on (like that has never happened!)

If there was damage, there was something wrong that you did not cause.

You might owe them a couple of dollars for electricity, but that's as far as I would go.

+1, If these pumps will run and burn up if there is no water to cool them, that is a major flaw in their design.

OP used "normal operating controls" to inspect the tub and it did not work. Are we expected to turn off breakers to dishwashers, food disposals, etc. if they don't work normally? Relays and switches in a dishwasher could (potentially) do the same thing.

Why should you pay for a new pump that didn't work at the time of inspection?

As Jerry always say's "failed under testing"........I use it!