Thread: where is the moisture at this shower stall

....and to order, just dial 867-5309, correct!?!

...and to order, just dial 867-5309, correct!?!

You catch on fast

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Jerry
First you implied that I said not to use a MM on a home inspection.
"But NOT using a moisture meter on a home inspection ... there is no basis for those types of statements."
I never said or even implied that.
You were being misleading.

Rick,

You still are not reading the posts.

*I* said *I* was responding to others who said that, not you.

Before continuing this charade, read the posts.

Then you say that I'm inexperienced
"can only come from inexperience "
Which I concede, compared to you I am, but I am not inexperienced.

Again, READ the posts.

I'll underline and bold for you - I said "That answer can only come from inexperience in seeing the ways windows in showers can leak."

That is not saying that you are inexperienced or have less experience than I do in home inspections, etc., only that your statements are showing inexperience "in seeing the ways windows in showers can leak".

Rick, I cannot impress upon this enough: READ the posts before continuing your rant. Then THINK about what is being said and discussed.

Originally Posted by Greg Subick

Maybe I missed it somewhere amongst the 62 previous posts on this thread, but can someone tell me the band and model # of this famed moisture meter being used. I wanna get one just to stir the pot!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

For your reading enjoyment:
GE Protimeter Surveymaster Moisture Meter | Moisture Meters | Instrumart
Click on the manual link:
http://www.instrumart.com/assets/108...ter_Manual.pdf
From Page 4 (red highlighting is mine)
"

The Search mode may also be used as an alternative to Measure mode when it is impractical or undesirable to push electrode pins into surfaces. For example, consider taking moisture readings behind ceramic tiles in shower cubicles or in walls covered by quality wallpapers where pinholes would not be acceptable.

"

Stir away.

Thanks Jerry!

The moisture can stay for years in some cases, Trapped with no circulation of air.

Wow - I built a bathroom - 3 years ago - with grouted marble stones. The last step was to seal the whole thing so that moisture did not get behind it. I do not want mold growing in my walls or in my grout. The sealer stated that it would need to be resealed periodically. If I have moisture in my walls - that is a problem that needs to be corrected. No moisture = no mold and no failing tile. And that's the way I like it! This is a problem in bathrooms - rarely do they get resealed. Mold grows, tiles fall.

Originally Posted by Tabb Jensen

Wow - I built a bathroom - 3 years ago - with grouted marble stones. The last step was to seal the whole thing so that moisture did not get behind it.

There is no need to seal a properly constructed shower wall. The substrate behind the tile is designed to be able to get wet ... unless, of course, you are using the wrong substrate.

Sealing the grout is really just a 'feel good' measure as there is really no need to seal the grout, or constantly reseal the grout.

I do not want mold growing in my walls or in my grout. The sealer stated that it would need to be resealed periodically. If I have moisture in my walls - that is a problem that needs to be corrected. No moisture = no mold and no failing tile.

If you have mold on the moisture in the wall substrate, or falling tile, then you have the wrong substrate, and NO amount of sealing is going to correct that problem.

Mold grows, tiles fall.

Not with properly constructed walls using the proper substrate.

Sealing the grout is to help keep it from breaking down over time and to be able to clean it easily

Do you all live in a perfect world or what - Have you not seen tile coming apart in a bathroom ? - Have you not seen mold/mildew growing on the grout? Do you inspect brand new homes only? Have you never taken a bathroom apart? Yes - in a perfect world - the parts/pieces are brand new, and are of the latest methods/developments. Many of the houses I inspect are not new and are not made to the latest standards. They have drywall behind the tile. This can last a very long time safely as long as moisture does not get behind the tile and grout. Seal it and keep it sealed.

Originally Posted by Tabb Jensen

They have drywall behind the tile.

THAT IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM - NOT "the grout", NOT "that the grout is not sealed", NOT any of those things.

DRYWALL WAS NOT MADE for that use.

So, how do you correct the problem?

This can last a very long time safely as long as moisture does not get behind the tile and grout. Seal it and keep it sealed.

NOT by sealing the grout and keeping it sealed - think about it a minute if you need to ...

... okay, times up: *IF* you seal the grout you have just SEALED THE MOISTURE IN the wall.

You correct the problem by replacing the walls when they deteriorate as a result of the walls NOT HAVING BEEN DONE CORRECTLY.

Would you recommend painting a shingle roof to keep the water out if you found particle board used for sheathing?

Of course NOT! You would recommend replacing the roof and the sheathing with proper roof sheathing materials, right?

So why not do the same for the shower?

Since were talking about shower walls.
When did builders start/stop using drywall?
Cement board?

On the remodels I have done, Plaster was used on pre 60s
60s & 70s had drywall.
I know my inexperience is showing, but I can't remember when cement board showed up.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Since were talking about shower walls.
When did builders start/stop using drywall?
Cement board?

On the remodels I have done, Plaster was used on pre 60s
60s & 70s had drywall.
I know my inexperience is showing, but I can't remember when cement board showed up.

There're still using in in NJ. Greenboard. Even using it (whiteboard) to cover platform used to support a hot water heater and furnace in garage.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Since were talking about shower walls.
When did builders start/stop using drywall?
Cement board?

On the remodels I have done, Plaster was used on pre 60s
60s & 70s had drywall.
I know my inexperience is showing, but I can't remember when cement board showed up.

Rick,

The "real" way was with a 3-coat bed of mud (scratch coat, brown coat, then the setting coat which holds the tile to the mud bed).

Then came "moisture resistant" drywall, and it was never designed of intended to be used in "wet" areas like showers. It was used in showers for shower walls, but "hardboard" siding was also used for exterior siding (heck, that was even intended for that use).

Then, after years of tile falling off because the paper facing would come loose, they came out with "tile backer board", and that was also used in shower walls, but it was not really intended for that either, and, like hardboard siding, it too failed, and for the same reason MR board failed - the paper facing would come loose.

The key uses for MR board and for other gypsum based tile backer boards are for use behind tile ... but not in the shower area or for tub surrounds (not for tubs with showers).

Many bathrooms have tiled showers and tiles tub surrounds, and they also have tile on the bathroom walls, sometimes only up to a wainscoting height, sometimes all the way to the ceiling, sometimes including the ceiling - these other areas are really what MR board and tile backer board, and they work for that use in those location.

The alternative to mud set tile is to use cement board in the shower walls and tub surrounds.

Okay, I suspect I've digressed a bit, but if you want to compare using "drywall" (by whatever name or configuration) for shower walls, the closest thing would be to compare it to hardboard siding and hardboard shingles, or even those cementitious shingles like CemWood and others ... except that those products were all specifically intended for those uses.

When you run across those products I just mentioned, do you recommend "sealing them" or "replacement"?

Shower walls with any of the gypsum board products is no different - it is a failed product *for that use*, recommend "replacement" just like you would for those other products.

I've not been able to understand why some home inspectors (not referring to you, Rick) cringe when calling for a roof to be "replaced" (it is not the home inspectors money, if it needs replacement, call it out), and then simply refuse to call out something like shower walls (and the shower walls don't even cost as much as the roof does).

Guys, it is NOT YOUR MONEY, you have a duty to your client to write those things up. It is up to your client and the seller to agree (which is called "negotiate") on what will be done, not done, or what money the seller will give to the your client.

Be consistent, write up what is not good.

Just a reminder, there are two types of items, "good" and "not good", you can break "not good" down into additional categories if you like, such as "replace", "repair", "unsafe", "leaking", etc., but it is still "not good".

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

There're still using in in NJ. Greenboard.

Not supposed to be using it for "wet" location walls.
- R702.3.8 Water-resistant gypsum backing board. Gypsum board used as the base or backer for adhesive application of ceramic tile or other required nonabsorbent finish material shall conform to ASTM C 630 or C 1178. Use of water-resistant gypsum backing board shall be permitted on ceilings where framing spacing does not exceed 12 inches (305 mm) on center for 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) or 16 inches (406 mm) for 5/8-inch-thick (16 mm) gypsum board. Water-resistant gypsum board shall not be installed over a vapor retarder in a shower or tub compartment. Cut or exposed edges, including those at wall intersections, shall be sealed as recommended by the manufacturer. (Jerry's note: This is for those tile areas I described which are not in the shower walls or tub surround walls where there is a shower.)

- - R702.3.8.1 Limitations. Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity. (Jerry's note: This is stating NOT to use it in those shower wall areas, you know, those areas being discussed where some are saying to "seal" the grout so the substrate does not get wet ... a proper substrate should not matter if it gets wet.)

Okay, I suspect I've digressed a bit

Ya think

Kinda reminds of of the little boy that asked his mother a question.
The mother says "I don't know. Ask your father". The little boy tells his mother, "I really didn't want to know that much about it!"

Just kidding with you Jerry
Do you have an approximate time line?

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Do you have an approximate time line?

Oh, took about 20 minutes to type that ...

Mud bed tile up until the late 1960s.

Gypsum board products probably came out about that time, maybe the MR board in the early 1970s?

Gypsum tile backer board probably in the 1990s to early 2000s (tile backer board is gray and has a different texture than green board/MR board, but the product is still gypsum core with paper on both sides).

Cement board (Durock, Wonder Board, etc.) probably in the 1990s?

Just from my memory of when I recall having seen the products, may well have been in use in other areas before I saw them.

The most widespread misuse was of green board (MR board) as people thought "moisture resistant" as being "water proof", and we all know there is a big difference between "child resistant" and "child proof" ("child resistant" just means it take the child a while to get in, whereas "child proof" just means it takes a little longer for them to get in).

This is a case where Watson will likely chime in and give more accurate time-line information - to that I say ... GOOD!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Not supposed to be using it for "wet" location walls.
- R702.3.8 Water-resistant gypsum backing board. Gypsum board used as the base or backer for adhesive application of ceramic tile or other required nonabsorbent finish material shall conform to ASTM C 630 or C 1178. Use of water-resistant gypsum backing board shall be permitted on ceilings where framing spacing does not exceed 12 inches (305 mm) on center for 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) or 16 inches (406 mm) for 5/8-inch-thick (16 mm) gypsum board. Water-resistant gypsum board shall not be installed over a vapor retarder in a shower or tub compartment. Cut or exposed edges, including those at wall intersections, shall be sealed as recommended by the manufacturer. (Jerry's note: This is for those tile areas I described which are not in the shower walls or tub surround walls where there is a shower.)

- - R702.3.8.1 Limitations. Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity. (Jerry's note: This is stating NOT to use it in those shower wall areas, you know, those areas being discussed where some are saying to "seal" the grout so the substrate does not get wet ... a proper substrate should not matter if it gets wet.)

Jerry,

based upon what you have quoted, it is applicable to use it it a shower.

"... Water-resistant gypsum backing board. Gypsum board used as the base or backer for adhesive application of ceramic tile or other required nonabsorbent finish material shall conform to ASTM C 630 or C 1178. ..."

States that it can be used.

"...Use of water-resistant gypsum backing board shall be permitted on ceilings where framing spacing does not exceed 12 inches (305 mm) on center for 1/2-inch-thick (13 mm) or 16 inches (406 mm) for 5/8-inch-thick (16 mm) gypsum board...."

States that it can be used in a ceiling IF proper support has been provided. (I haven't seen this here in NJ.)

No limitations there. And the last item that was quoted was...

"...Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity..."

States that it can't be exposed in an area where it can contact with moisture, such as an area where water is sprayed around as part of the usage.

Looks like it is acceptable here although I would prefer concrete board.

Thanks,

Rich

For what its worth, I live for threads like this.

One of the great things about IN is that you can count on certain posters for assistance on calibrating your BS meter on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Jerry,

based upon what you have quoted, it is applicable to use it it a shower.

States that it can be used in a ceiling IF proper support has been provided. (I haven't seen this here in NJ.)

Rich,

Yes, that states it can "be used" ... just NOT IN the shower for the shower walls or ceiling - READ THIS PART:

"...Water resistant gypsum backing board shall not be used where there will be direct exposure to water, or in areas subject to continuous high humidity..."

States that it can't be exposed in an area where it can contact with moisture, such as an area where water is sprayed around as part of the usage.

Only part way correct in your reading - it states "or in areas subject to continuous high humidity" ... that's where shower walls are located ...

(not sure why you like the larger text, but I continued the process for you )

Just "cutting back to the chase" as they say ...

Let's say that gypsum tile backer board board, green board, and the other incarnations of that product were specifically designed and intended for installation on shower walls and tub surround walls where there are showers - let's start with that as a "given".

I take you back to the following:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Would you recommend painting a shingle roof to keep the water out if you found particle board used for sheathing?

Of course NOT! You would recommend replacing the roof and the sheathing with proper roof sheathing materials, right?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

but "hardboard" siding was also used for exterior siding (heck, that was even intended for that use).

like hardboard siding, it too failed, and for the same reason MR board failed - the paper facing would come loose.

but if you want to compare using "drywall" (by whatever name or configuration) for shower walls, the closest thing would be to compare it to hardboard siding and hardboard shingles, or even those cementitious shingles like CemWood and others ...

When you run across those products I just mentioned, do you recommend "sealing them" or "replacement"?

Wouldn't you write up a product you know fails for the use, even though it was designed and intended for that use?

We all know that water goes through grout, the tiles are *never* installed with the proper moisture barrier mastic skim coat, and that the paper gets wet and the tile and paper separate from the gypsum core ... that is the failure we are talking about here.

So, if you write up CemWood shingles, Hardboard siding (Masonite, LP, etc.), EIFS, etc., known products which were intended to be used for the purpose they are used for, and yet are all known for failing, so you write them up ... what is the difference in writing up gypsum board being used for shower walls?

This entire part of the discussion is about how you have to try to keep them "sealed" so they don't fail as quickly ... isn't that kind of two-faced ... write one known product up and not write another known product up, when both are known to be failure prone and are in need of replacement?

Is it just me who sees that?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

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Rich,

Yes, that states it can "be used" ... just NOT IN the shower for the shower walls or ceiling - READ THIS PART:

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Only part way correct in your reading - it states "or in areas subject to continuous high humidity" ... that's where shower walls are located ...

(not sure why you like the larger text, but I continued the process for you )

Jerry, sorry for the large type. I was using a different PC with a different email package, Evolution, and the type for some reason looked a little larger when I typed it, but not THAT large. I didn't use color though.... wonder where it came from....

But, based upon your comments---I don't think that you understood what I said.

The code that you included states that sheetrock is allowed to be used, with no restrictions other than extra support on a ceiling. If the tile is installed according to the manufacturers instructions-----where is the problem?

If the adhesive or mastic was applied correctly including the moisture barrier, and the tile is properly grouted and maintained, where is the moisture? It is on the surface portion, shower side, of the tile as you have stated in Red---but not on the wall side.

You can't really flag it if the installation is neat and tight and has no issues---just because it uses sheetrock as a backerboard and you prefer cement board (I do too, BTW). No problem if you include an anecdotal refernce, but it is still code compliant.

Rich

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

You can't really flag it if the installation is neat and tight and has no issues---just because it uses sheetrock as a backerboard and you prefer cement board (I do too, BTW). No problem if you include an anecdotal refernce, but it is still code compliant.

So ... if you inspected a house which EIFS, hardboard siding, CemWood or WoodRuf (I believe that is another one of those shingles) on the house and you did not find anything wrong with it that you could see, that you would accept it and not make any comments on it?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

So ... if you inspected a house which EIFS, hardboard siding, CemWood or WoodRuf (I believe that is another one of those shingles) on the house and you did not find anything wrong with it that you could see, that you would accept it and not make any comments on it?

Jerry,

I think your previous statement to me was that I was wrong in saying that the code allows a sheetrock installation in a shower area. I said yes, the code does. You apairently disagreed with that answer.

Now you are digressing with another type of question. I think you are asking that even if the installation is code compliant, and the installation does not appear to be substandard and has no issues, should you mention something about past history of that product? If that is the question..... By all means if you feel in that situation it would be helpful to the client. But don't say it's not code compliant unless there is a specific local code stating such.



Rich

I have found that that uncaulked screws holding the shower door is place will take on water. If they are not running an AC the moisture will stay in the wall