Thread: Horizontal installation of water heater

Can an indirect fired water heater be installed horizontally

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It is, therefore it can.
Should it be?
Only if the manufactures installation instructions say it can.
But I doubt that it is allowed.

before this picture.....
I have never seen that....

I've seen lots of tanks installed horizontally but it has to be designed for the application.

was a first for me. I like the pan.

AO Smith Tanks...

Jacketed - Water Heaters Commercial by A. O. Smith

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

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Can an indirect fired water heater be installed horizontally

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Storage tank.
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Originally Posted by James Duffin

AO Smith Tanks...

Jacketed - Water Heaters Commercial by A. O. Smith

Those look like "storage tanks" and are shown as being heated by a separate boiler.

That water heater is not intended to be installed horizontally, would not heat the water well, the T&P relief valve location may be a problem, as well as other things.

The water heater shown in the original post is like a 16 inch gun waiting to be fired ... POW! and off it goes.

There are a few that I found on the net, but they didn't look like that one. Crown and Broderus (sp?) had one. Also, check out the prices. That's a lot of money for a storage tank, imo.

Hello Matthew. Are you sure that is a water heater? Some people (and Billy) are telling you it may be storing the water which could be heated by that boiler beside it.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Hello Matthew. Are you sure that is a water heater? Some people (and Billy) are telling you it may be storing the water which could be heated by that boiler beside it.

Yes,
Is that tank before or after the Boiler?

Could it be a water heater that was converted for use as an expansion tank for the boiler system?

Could it be a heat exchanger? Is there a solar panel on the roof?

Steel frame, concrete floor, OSB crawlspace????? Matt, tell us more about the building. (Just curious)

I call it an indirect fired water heater, but it is also called a storage tank. It relies on the boiler to heat the water so it does not have a self contained heating element.

Pic of the capacity plate?

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Some people (and Billy) are telling you it may be storing the water .

......

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Those look like "storage tanks" and are shown as being heated by a separate boiler.

That water heater is not intended to be installed horizontally, would not heat the water well, the T&P relief valve location may be a problem, as well as other things.

The water heater shown in the original post is like a 16 inch gun waiting to be fired ... POW! and off it goes.

He said indirect fired so it is not a water heater....it is a storage tank. One of my previous places of employment had over 100 boilers and lots of storage tanks used in this type setup. Our tanks had to be ASME rated but it is the same concept.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

He said indirect fired so it is not a water heater....it is a storage tank.

Saying it is an indirect water heater means it is not a water heater, or it was indirectly fired in some way (which is not visible in the photo).

If it is a storage tank and is not fired in any way, then there is still the problem with the T&P relief valve location (which is not shown at the top where it would be required to be) and that water-heater-turned-storage-tank (if that is what it is) would still be incorrect and not used in accordance with it listing and labeling ... not installed horizontally like that.

As others have said, the horizontally installed storage tanks *do not look like that*, that is a vertical tank laid on its side and it was not designed nor intended to be installed that way.

Horizontal is OK only if the manufacturer recommends it.

It is obviously just a storage tank, the boiler is on the right with the Tracpipe. The storage tank has no gas piping or any area for combustion.

Originally Posted by Matt Nelson

It is obviously just a storage tank, the boiler is on the right with the Tracpipe. The storage tank has no gas piping or any area for combustion.

From post 18 above:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

If it is a storage tank and is not fired in any way, then there is still the problem with the T&P relief valve location (which is not shown at the top where it would be required to be) and that water-heater-turned-storage-tank (if that is what it is) would still be incorrect and not used in accordance with it listing and labeling ... not installed horizontally like that.

As others have said, the horizontally installed storage tanks *do not look like that*, that is a vertical tank laid on its side and it was not designed nor intended to be installed that way.

An indirect water heater is not "fired." It uses water from the boiler (or other heating system) to transfer heat to cold water, so it is a water heater and not just a storage tank.

Dunno about installation on their side, but I doubt it. They're cylindrical, after all.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

An indirect water heater is not "fired." It uses water from the boiler (or other heating system) to transfer heat to cold water, so it is a water heater and not just a storage tank.

Dunno about installation on their side, but I doubt it. They're cylindrical, after all.

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Nope.

This one just stores the heated water.
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Kristi,
Tank is used for volume storage of the hot water. The water is actually heated in the boiler (summer/winter hooh up), boiler has an additional coil in it as the heat transfer mechanism that then is piped to the tank.

How can you tell it's a storage tank and not a heater? And why would the OP call it that if it isn't one?

I mostly wanted to correct any impression that if a water heater doesn't have its own means of combustion, it isn't a water heater.

Looks like a heater to me, with a hot water circuit and a cold-to-warm circuit.

Does the house have in-floor radiant heat?

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

Can an indirect fired water heater be installed horizontally

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

I call it an indirect fired water heater, but it is also called a storage tank. It relies on the boiler to heat the water so it does not have a self contained heating element.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

How can you tell it's a storage tank and not a heater? And why would the OP call it that if it isn't one?

I mostly wanted to correct any impression that if a water heater doesn't have its own means of combustion, it isn't a water heater.

Looks like a heater to me, with a hot water circuit and a cold-to-warm circuit.

Does the house have in-floor radiant heat?

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.....
..
...

Here's an indirect water water, though this one is coupled with a geothermal heat pump system rather than a boiler.

Why would someone have a giant water storage tank like that?

Yes, Billy, we can read, there's no reason to just quote a bunch of other posts. What's your point? What makes you think it's a storage tank?

Matthew is right - in an indirect water heater, water is heated by the boiler (or by some other external source). But that hot water is used to heat a separate circuit of cold water through heat exchange within the tank. That's why indirect water heaters are called heaters and not storage tanks, though they may act as such as well.

Is there any electrical or gas connected to this water heater/storage tank/whatyoumaycallit?
If there isn't an energy source, I don't see how it could be a water heater.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Yes, Billy, we can read, there's no reason to just quote a bunch of other posts. What's your point? What makes you think it's a storage tank?

Matthew is right - in an indirect water heater, water is heated by the boiler (or by some other external source). But that hot water is used to heat a separate circuit of cold water through heat exchange within the tank. That's why indirect water heaters are called heaters and not storage tanks, though they may act as such as well.

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Nope ,

Not this one, just stores the Heated Water.
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Jack, the energy is in the hot water (or "fluid," I guess - see below) coming from the boiler.

From the energysavers.gov site:

"Indirect water heaters offer a more efficient choice for most homes, even though they require a storage tank. An indirect water heater uses the main furnace or boiler to heat a fluid that's circulated through a heat exchanger in the storage tank. The energy stored by the water tank allows the furnace to turn off and on less often, which saves energy. Therefore, an indirect water heater is used with a high-efficiency boiler and well-insulated tank can be the least expensive means of providing hot water."



Look familiar? Yes, obviously it is a storage tank as well, but it's primary function is heating water.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Jack, the energy is in the hot water (or "fluid," I guess - see below) coming from the boiler.

From the energysavers.gov site:

"Indirect water heaters offer a more efficient choice for most homes, even though they require a storage tank. An indirect water heater uses the main furnace or boiler to heat a fluid that's circulated through a heat exchanger in the storage tank. The energy stored by the water tank allows the furnace to turn off and on less often, which saves energy. Therefore, an indirect water heater is used with a high-efficiency boiler and well-insulated tank can be the least expensive means of providing hot water."



Look familiar? Yes, obviously it is a storage tank as well, but it's primary function is heating water.

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Please Point out the Heat Exchanger Coils in OP's Picture of this Storage Tank.
.

Now that I look at the picture closer I think Kristi may be right.
Lets say the boiler feed goes into the bottom left hand corner, coming out at the top right hand corner. Cold water supply in on the left bottom side out the top left side. I'm not saying thats the way it is but it's possible?

Originally Posted by Matt Nelson

Now that I look at the picture closer I think Kristi may be right.
Lets say the boiler feed goes into the bottom left hand corner, coming out at the top right hand corner. Cold water supply in on the left bottom side out the top left side. I'm not saying thats the way it is but it's possible?

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Bottom Left hand Corner is not feed by Boiler but from an off the Picture Source.
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Looks like its coming out of the expannsion tank area near the boiler to me.?.

Ok being fed from the boiler in the upper right hand corner and returning from the bottom left corner LOL.

Please Point out the Heat Exchanger Coils in OP's Picture of this Storage Tank.

Billy, you're the one who's omniscient, who sees what others don't and doesn't have to explain your proclamations, you of all people should be able to see through the shell and tell us all about the coils inside. Or are you saying that's how you know it's just a storage tank - you can see there aren't any?

That's a really good strategy, demanding the proof be something impossible to show. I guess you outsmarted me!

I know this is all wrong, of course, because Billy says it's a storage tank, but just to show my misguided thinking about this:
Boiler circuit through the copper, cold input and heated output through the pex on end. Pressure release valve on end. Billy may be right that the hot water input is from off-screen if it goes through a radiator system first, but I think we just can't see where it comes out of the boiler.

What I want to know is, how is this thing supported? What is its weight resting on?

Steel frame, concrete floor, OSB crawlspace????? Matt, tell us more about the building. (Just curious)

I'm interested, too. But I thought this was an attic.

Looks to be low pressure system with water heater tank being used for storage only. Hint: Note the auto vent on the left ("top") of the tank. This type vent would likely not survive pressures over 30 PSI. With this setup, I don't see any issue as a tank is a tank regardless of position. Looks funny though using a standard water heater in this manner. The 30 PSI pressure (not T&P) relief valve would be installed on the adjacent boiler. I would think this system is being used for baseboard space heating.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Billy, you're the one who's omniscient, who sees what others don't and doesn't have to explain your proclamations, you of all people should be able to see through the shell and tell us all about the coils inside. Or are you saying that's how you know it's just a storage tank - you can see there aren't any.

That's a really good strategy, demanding the proof be something impossible to show. I guess you outsmarted me!

I know this is all wrong, of course, because Billy says it's a storage tank, but just to show my misguided thinking about this:
Boiler circuit through the copper, cold input and heated output through the pex on end. Pressure release valve on end. Billy may be right that the hot water input is from off-screen if it goes through a radiator system first, but I think we just can't see where it comes out of the boiler.

What I want to know is, how is this thing supported? What is its weight resting on?


I'm interested, too. But I thought this was an attic.

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I"m not seeing the feed and return lines for Heater Exchange Coils .
* The Pex ( Yellow on the End is the Gas Supply Line to the Heater)

Looks to me that I see water in and water out from the 'top' of the tank (now the left end of the tank), and that I see heater water from the boiler in at the top left and out at the bottom not from from the right end back to the boiler.

To me, that makes the tank not only a storage tank, but a water heater too, with the heat supplied by the heated water from the boiler.

Regardless, that is a vertical tank and not a horizontal tank, the tank is not installed as it was designed to be installed nor intended to be installed, and that is a problem.

If there is not enough room to install the vertical tank vertically, then spend the extra money and buy a proper tank which is designed and intended to be installed horizontally ... wait ... those cost more than a regular vertical water heater, so that makes it okay to install the vertical tank horizontally? Nope, it does not.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Looks to me that I see water in and water out from the 'top' of the tank (now the left end of the tank), and that I see heater water from the boiler in at the top left and out at the bottom not from from the right end back to the boiler.

To me, that makes the tank not only a storage tank, but a water heater too, with the heat supplied by the heated water from the boiler.

Regardless, that is a vertical tank and not a horizontal tank, the tank is not installed as it was designed to be installed nor intended to be installed, and that is a problem.

If there is not enough room to install the vertical tank vertically, then spend the extra money and buy a proper tank which is designed and intended to be installed horizontally ... wait ... those cost more than a regular vertical water heater, so that makes it okay to install the vertical tank horizontally? Nope, it does not.

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I'm still not seeing a feed from the top left.

Yellow Pex appears to be a Gas feed to heater, Not seeing any connection to heater by Orange Pex .
.

Originally Posted by Steven Saville

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Looks to be low pressure system with water heater tank being used for storage only. Hint: Note the auto vent on the left ("top") of the tank. This type vent would likely not survive pressures over 30 PSI. With this setup, I don't see any issue as a tank is a tank regardless of position. Looks funny though using a standard water heater in this manner. The 30 PSI pressure (not T&P) relief valve would be installed on the adjacent boiler. I would think this system is being used for baseboard space heating.

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Steve,

Do you know of a Tank Listed by the Manufacturer for this Type of Low Pressure Installation?
.
.

.....

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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Bottom Left hand Corner is not feed by Boiler but from an off the Picture Source.
.

Originally Posted by Matt Nelson

Now that I look at the picture closer I think Kristi may be right.
Lets say the boiler feed goes into the bottom left hand corner, coming out at the top right hand corner.

Cold water supply in on the left bottom side out the top left side. I'm not saying thats the way it is but it's possible?

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

.....

.
Not a direct feed from the heater.

Boiler to the indirect coil WOULDN'T be pex the Pex and CPVC are the circulating water cold imput and tempered output (presumably potable).

Follow the copper from the boiler and back to same. Don't confuse recirc (return) of the tempered recirculation of cooled heated circulating water (from orig. drain/flush port) for the coil ports as you can't see them in either pic as the vertical indirect is on its side. If you look real close you'll find a service flush valve port in the copper mid way along the floor under the indirect.

Its wrong install/application, but the OP correctly identified the equipment, this was a dead thread. IIRC this topic & pics originally was dually posted. Apparently the other one got deleted, now months later B.S. is covering this one with B.S. again. I recall a photo from the pad direction looking at what should have been the tops of two side by side and the skis in foreground and boiler in background off to the right.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Boiler to the indirect coil WOULDN'T be pex the Pex and CPVC are the circulating water cold imput and tempered output (presumably potable).

Follow the copper from the boiler and back to same. Don't confuse recirc (return) of the tempered recirculation of cooled heated circulating water (from orig. drain/flush port) for the coil ports as you can't see them in either pic as the vertical indirect is on its side. If you look real close you'll find a service flush valve port in the copper mid way along the floor under the indirect.

Its wrong install/application, but the OP correctly identified the equipment, this was a dead thread. IIRC this topic & pics originally was dually posted. Apparently the other one got deleted, now months later B.S. is covering this one with B.S. again. I recall a photo from the pad direction looking at what should have been the tops of two side by side and the skis in foreground and boiler in background off to the right.

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This Thread was Started 10/25/2011 and Died 10/26/2011.

I did not Resurrect this Topic.

If anything has been Deleted it would be Your Short term Memory. ( Nice Way of Saying You Tend to Make Things Up on The Fly.)

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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Steve,

Do you know of a Tank Listed by the Manufacturer for this Type of Low Pressure Installation?
.
.

No, not off the top of my head.
But considering a water heater is rated for 150 PSI, I wouldn't think there is an issue using the tank for a low pressure purpose.

Originally Posted by Steven Saville

No, not off the top of my head.
But considering a water heater is rated for 150 PSI, I wouldn't think there is an issue using the tank for a low pressure purpose.

There isn't an issue using the tank for low pressure purposes.

There is an issue on *how* the tank is used for low pressure purposes, i.e., taking a tank designed and intended for vertical installation and installing it horizontally *is incorrect and should not be done*.

If in doubt, write the manufacturer's name down, their phone number, the model number of the tank, call the manufacturer and describe what you are looking at (better yet, get an email address and send them a photo) ... when they are through laughing ... they will tell you want they think of that installation. If you some how get a letter from the manufacturer stating that is acceptable, make sure the letter come from their engineering and technical department and not their sales department.

Originally Posted by Steven Saville

.
No, not off the top of my head.
But considering a water heater is rated for 150 PSI, I wouldn't think there is an issue using the tank for a low pressure purpose.

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Thanks Steve,

But if it's Not Listed by The Manufacture for the Application then it's Not Allowed.

* doesn't mean there are none but must be listed for the application.
.

Very nice triangle tube boiler and what appears to be triangle tube "tank within a tank" type indirect.

Kristi's illustration is basically correct, excep instead of a coil, tt uses ss tank inside the main tank. Lots of surface area for quick recovery and temperature and pressure changes between tanks help prevent mineral buildup, thus keeping high heat transfer efficiencies.

For those who adamantly think this is simply storage, real men eat crow with dignity from time to time. Those who cant be wrong ever have a hard time learning new things. note FOUR water pipes to that tank.


Never seen an install like this, but it is very creative. I like creative. Thing that fails for me is piping should be insulated.

Guess you'd have to call mfr to find out if/how this represents a problem.

Originally Posted by ted kidd

Very nice triangle tube boiler and what appears to be triangle tube "tank within a tank" type indirect.

Kristi's illustration is basically correct, excep instead of a coil, tt uses ss tank inside the main tank. Lots of surface area for quick recovery and temperature and pressure changes between tanks help prevent mineral buildup, thus keeping high heat transfer efficiencies.

For those who adamantly think this is simply storage, real men eat crow with dignity from time to time. Those who cant be wrong ever have a hard time learning new things. note FOUR water pipes to that tank.


Never seen an install like this, but it is very creative. I like creative. Thing that fails for me is piping should be insulated.

Guess you'd have to call mfr to find out if/how this represents a problem.

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Well Kidd,

I'm willing to learn ( would you be willing to point those out?)
.

Billy, they already have been pointed out! If you can't accept it, that's too bad, but do you have to insist that people show you what has already been discussed? Two copper pipes on the round part, two pex on the "top."

Ted, I'm interested in the different types of indirect water heaters. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind a tank within a tank, when coils would transfer heat so much more effectively (though the point about mineral buildup is a good one). And how can you tell the difference from the outside? (I'm not questioning your judgement, I'm curious.)

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Billy, they already have been pointed out! If you can't accept it, that's too bad, but do you have to insist that people show you what has already been discussed? Two copper pipes on the round part, two pex on the "top."

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Sorry Still not seeing a Direct return to the heater.
* the Pex feeds the System

A door bell button (switch) is not listed by the mfg or by UL for any use other than a door bell, so under no circumstances would it be allowed to used as a momentary contact switch to operate your remote door opener, or any other application. This analogy also applies to improvised water storage tanks.

Originally Posted by ted kidd

Very nice triangle tube boiler and what appears to be triangle tube "tank within a tank" type indirect.

Kristi's illustration is basically correct, excep instead of a coil, tt uses ss tank inside the main tank. Lots of surface area for quick recovery and temperature and pressure changes between tanks help prevent mineral buildup, thus keeping high heat transfer efficiencies.

For those who adamantly think this is simply storage, real men eat crow with dignity from time to time. Those who cant be wrong ever have a hard time learning new things. note FOUR water pipes to that tank.


Never seen an install like this, but it is very creative. I like creative. Thing that fails for me is piping should be insulated.

Guess you'd have to call mfr to find out if/how this represents a problem.

A horizontal storage tank/indirect heater is used all the time in commercial installations so it's not all that unusual. So I concur with Ted, especially about the creativity part.

However . . .

The typical storage tank/indirect heater tank is designed for vertical installation so as others have stated, it must be listed for this install by the mfr.

AND, the drain pan would appear to be a fail. The other connections should covered as it were, by the drain pan. In fact I think the boiler should have a pan as well.

Looks fine to me.

Originally Posted by Paul Phillips

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Looks fine to me.

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Hey Look Kristi,

It's a Storage Tank Installed Upside Down.
.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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Hey Look Kristi,

It's a Storage Tank Installed Upside Down.
.

Fixed that problem.

And by the way its an indirect water heater. Sorry about mounting everything else on the floor in front of it.

Originally Posted by Paul Phillips

Fixed that problem.

And by the way its an indirect water heater. Sorry about mounting everything else on the floor in front of it.

.
Thanks Paul,
* By the way Talk is Cheap.
** unless your a Lawyer.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Here's an indirect water water, though this one is coupled with a geothermal heat pump system rather than a boiler.

Why would someone have a giant water storage tank like that?

Hi Kristi,

Although geothermal systems are pricey, that is a very efficient set-up. While the heat pump cannot heat the water tank (generally electric) to desired levels, it will keep the water inside warm enough so that the tank will "fire up" less often. An all electric home with this type of set-up would see the utility bills cut in half.

Thomas, the tank I posted in the photo is an indirect water heater, it doesn't have a heating mechanism itself. The heat pumps, I believe, are enough to warm the water in the indirect heater for it to be used for in-floor heating. Can't remember if they are used in tandem or not (photo is from an addition my uncle and I built a few years ago). There are regular water heaters for household hot water.

Pretty sure it's a tt smart indirect.


Probably install instructions there if you dig.

Indirect Fired Water Heaters | TriangleTube

Originally Posted by ted kidd

Pretty sure it's a tt smart indirect.


Probably install instructions there if you dig.

Indirect Fired Water Heaters | TriangleTube

http://www.triangletube.com/document...-TR-Manual.pdf
" The PhaseIII®
TR Series and SMART Series
Water Heaters are designed for vertical installation only"

Yall perked my curiosity...

Yep, not kosher:

The PhaseIII® TR Series and SMART Series Water Heaters are designed for vertical instal- lation only.

Originally Posted by ted kidd

Yall perked my curiosity...

Yep, not kosher:

The PhaseIII® TR Series and SMART Series Water Heaters are designed for vertical instal- lation only.

.
Yep and It's Not A SMART Water Heater as well. Installation Piping does not match.

And if You Look at the LOGO she's No Match = No SMART.
She Might even be a little Dim.
.