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Thread: Crown Vent?

  1. #1
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    Default Crown Vent?

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    .
    This a crown vent?
    .
    It Appears as such.
    * but I'm no plumber.

    .

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    It looks like a drain trap to me. It can't vent the the larger line. The larger trunk line is a wet vent for the tub drain on the right, AFAIK.

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Looks like this?

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Looks like this?
    Close, but no.

    The trap arm is from the crown weir (you got that part correct if I looked at your drawing correctly) and the vent, but not the center of the vent, you would measure to where the sanitary tee dips and meets the vent - the low point of the top (where the air would be blocked off).

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Close, but no.

    The trap arm is from the crown weir (you got that part correct if I looked at your drawing correctly) and the vent, but not the center of the vent, you would measure to where the sanitary tee dips and meets the vent - the low point of the top (where the air would be blocked off).
    You are looking at the drawing incorrectly, and you are incorrect in your concluding statement as well.

    The drawing is correct in diagraming a crown vent.


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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Marc,

    In your first pic and please correct me if it is an illusion, it appears that there has been a reduction up above the trap. This is never allowed.

    Further, this too short a trap arm is not going into a vertical - it is more than 45 degrees and offset. We know this is horizontal because of the fitting on its back on the main drain below closest to the dirt floor; even if that drain was exactly level, and it shouldn't be, it should be sloped downhill, and the cleanout in the background to the right foundation wall should be uphill.

    45 and less = vertical, more than 45 even a fraction, and its horizontal.


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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Not a crown vent - However, it is a reportable defect.
    Definition - Crown Vent:
    A vent for a plumbing fixture in which the vent pipe is connected at the top of the curve in the pipe that forms the trap.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Not a crown vent - However, it is a reportable defect.
    Definition - Crown Vent:
    A vent for a plumbing fixture in which the vent pipe is connected at the top of the curve in the pipe that forms the trap.
    Wrong!

    You just make that up?

    Not the California Codes definition, not the UPC definition, not the IPC definition, and certainly not a definition written by anyone familiar with the engineering or dynamics of plumbing systems.

    P3105.3 Crown vent. A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.

    The crown in "crown vent" is referring to a vent's relationship distance and volume with/from the Crown Weir - that's the spill point of the trap.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-26-2011 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    P3105.3 Crown vent. A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.
    So, after saying that I was incorrect, you post at code section which states that I was correct - Watson, you really need to make up your mind on these things before jumping to conclusions ... or is that how you get your exercise?

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    So, after saying that I was incorrect, you post at code section which states that I was correct - Watson, you really need to make up your mind on these things before jumping to conclusions ... or is that how you get your exercise?
    I said you were looking at the drawing incorrectly, AND that your CONCLUDING statement was incorrect.

    You are wrong with regards to where the hydraulic rush occurs, or where it is measured regarding the anti fouling requirements of a NON-CROWN-VENTED trap.

    And, by the way, the drawing wasn't Marc's.

    We've had this discussion before. You like WC Jerry when confronted with what you do not know, rush to on-line dictionaries and get bad information then start spouting off.

    However Cali used and AFAIK still uses UPC based plumbing codes, not IPC - a "tougher" code base - and one that actually requires some knowledge of fluid dynamics, etc.

    When the 2 Jerrys start carrying on about what they do not understand, it gets interesting.

    Calling Dr. Fine...

    Marc, combo systems are especially difficult when they've been improperly modified.


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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I said you were looking at the drawing incorrectly, AND that your CONCLUDING statement was incorrect.

    You are wrong with regards to where the hydraulic rush occurs, or where it is measured regarding the anti fouling requirements of a NON-CROWN-VENTED trap.

    And, by the way, the drawing wasn't Marc's.

    We've had this discussion before. You like WC Jerry when confronted with what you do not know, rush to on-line dictionaries and get bad information then start spouting off.

    However Cali used and AFAIK still uses UPC based plumbing codes, not IPC - a "tougher" code base - and one that actually requires some knowledge of fluid dynamics, etc.

    When the 2 Jerrys start carrying on about what they do not understand, it gets interesting.

    Calling Dr. Fine...

    Marc, combo systems are especially difficult when they've been improperly modified.
    You're correct H.G., this is your drawing. you did it for me a few months or so ago. I was reflecting on it because of this finding and you are also correct in saying that combo systems are pretty tough sometimes, this one particular system especially, because there are 3 bathrooms just like this.
    I suppose I could just report that a plumber should go look at it (which I will likely do anyhow), but Id rather know in order to grow as an inspector.
    Would it be too much trouble to explain why the short distance of the arm is significant? I'm confident at some point, I will be asked this question.
    Thank you

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    where it is measured
    Okay, tell us where a trap arm is measured - provide an authorative documentation for support of you measurement.

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Crown Vent Definition actually Merriam-Webster made that definition up.
    IPC - A crown vent is a vent that extends upward from a trap or trap arm. Crown vented traps are not allowed. The vent must be on the trap arm and behind the trap by a distance equal to twice the pipe size.
    2009 IRC - P3105.3 Crown Vent: A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.
    UPC workbook diagrams of crown venting attached.

    EC Jerry, Try and ignore the constant buzzing of nonsense by our resident dung fly.

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    IPC - A crown vent is a vent that extends upward from a trap or trap arm. Crown vented traps are not allowed. The vent must be on the trap arm and behind the trap by a distance equal to twice the pipe size.
    2009 IRC - P3105.3 Crown Vent: A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.
    UPC workbook diagrams of crown venting attached.

    EC Jerry, Try and ignore the constant buzzing of nonsense by our resident dung fly.
    WC Jerry,

    Yes, you are, of course, correct, but ... I was once again offering Watson the chance to redeem himself by asking him to provide documentation for his statements - fully realizing and understanding that he does not do that.

    This: "2009 IRC - P3105.3 Crown Vent: A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir." pretty much describes and matches what I described as the measuring points.

    Watson is a difficult person to ignore - if he is ignored, then his posts may go forward as assumed 'truths' and 'facts' in their entirety when his posts frequently contain incorrect information and misinformation.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Watson is a difficult person to ignore - if he is ignored, then his posts may go forward as assumed 'truths' and 'facts' in their entirety when his posts frequently contain incorrect information and misinformation.


    While I know I'll regret getting into this, and please try to refrain from a knee-jerk reaction, but I have to say that statement by you, Jerry, is your own baggage, not everyone else's.

    We don't necessarily always need someone to correct every post or to "fact check" someone's replies. While it's true that some may want it, or even need it, no one has been appointed the "gatekeeper" of the board. (Now don't get all defensive, that comment wasn't meant to insult you, but just to remind you that it's not your responsibility to hover over HG's posts and debate him ad nauseam, time after time.) I think its great that you want to help, and often I appreciate it. But you can take a break once in awhile and realize that many posters here can read very well, and make up our own minds on these topics. We can believe or ignore him; we can believe or ignore you.

    I know you'll still be ripping him (and probably me) a new one, but you shouldn't feel compelled to do so.

    Happy New Year,
    Dom.


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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    I know you'll still be ripping him (and probably me) a new one, but you shouldn't feel compelled to do so.
    Dom,

    Not ripping you a new one, don't really care, but if you or someone asks for information, that information should be correct, or someone should offer the correct information.

    And, yes, it happens to me now and then, I get it handed to me, and I accept it, Watson, however, just fails to respond and goes off espousing on something else.

    Sometimes, someone needs to step up and turn the lights on ... does no good for someone to be home and the lights not on.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 12-28-2011 at 06:50 PM. Reason: changed "off" to "offer" as that was my intent, sheesh, sometimes *I* can't even type :)
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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sometimes, someone needs to step up
    Agreed. It is easy to ignore false info, (I use the scroll function :>) but it is poor service to leave incorrect info for others to stumble upon and absorb as fact. Don't give up the fight.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Agreed. It is easy to ignore false info, (I use the scroll function :>) but it is poor service to leave incorrect info for others to stumble upon and absorb as fact. Don't give up the fight.
    Roger that..

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    WC Jerry,

    The top left, FIRST illustrated crown-vented trap with the UPC code definition and restriction of just what a crown vent or a crown-vented-trap IS, in your very post of Figure 10-16 from your illustrated guide to the (older edition) UPC, is exactly WHAT a crown-vented-trap IS. The other diagrams are showing other examples & modifications which are ALSO examples of crown vents or crown-vented-traps (previous attempts at overcoming problems of S-traps).

    There is no relationship with an upward curve or for that matter the top weir which defines a crown vent. The crown (weir) is the spill point of the trap.
    !
    Lookie vVV !!



    Marc already has been provided with better-illustrated UPC based diagrams regarding same in prior discussions.


    Marc,

    It gets rather complicated, and I'm not about to go into hydraulics, fluid dynamics, air pressure, etc, surges, slugs, jumps, etc.

    I'll KISS it to the direction I believe you're looking for...

    A tendency to become clogged (vent), less than consistant scour (trap), backups (contamination, fixture), jumping, slugs, surges, and burps. Inadequate trap seal over time, slow drainage.

    Especially a potential problem issue with your pictured, no cleanouts either


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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Yes, there is no clean-out. I did not worry about this before. There are a lot like this in our area. I thought these traps are removeable. Pls correct me.

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    WC Jerry,

    Marc,

    It gets rather complicated, and I'm not about to go into hydraulics, fluid dynamics, air pressure, etc, surges, slugs, jumps, etc.

    I'll KISS it to the direction I believe you're looking for...

    A tendency to become clogged (vent), less than consistant scour (trap), backups (contamination, fixture), jumping, slugs, surges, and burps. Inadequate trap seal over time, slow drainage.

    Especially a potential problem issue with your pictured, no cleanouts either
    I appreciate that info H.G., thanks for taking the time.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Just thought I'd post this...

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    Default Re: Crown Vent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Just thought I'd post this...
    That's either unvented or an 'S' trap, depending on what is or is not in that wall.

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