Thread: It'sok

So after the plumber gets my report he tells the buyer the pipe has a sleve on it and it's ok......

That's funny. Even though your photo sleeve does nothing, is a sleeve required through that block cripple wall ?

Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship

is a sleeve required through that block cripple wall ?

Yes, that's the point (and the joke) , there is no relieving arch, so a sleeve at least 2 trade sizes larger that is built in the wall where the pipe passes through the wall, is required.

Masonry and concrete forever expands.

PVC also expands and contracts (albeit more lengthwise than diameter).

P2603.3 Breakage and corrosion. Pipes passing through or under walls shall be protected from breakage. Pipes passing through concrete or cinder walls and floors, cold-formed steel framing or other corrosive material shall be protected against external corrosion by a protective sheathing or wrapping or other means that will withstand any reaction from lime and acid of concrete, cinder or other corrosive material. Sheathing or wrapping shall allow for movement including expansion and contraction of piping. Minimum wall thickness of material shall be 0.025 inch (0.64 mm).

P2603.5 Pipes through footings or foundation walls. Any pipe that passes under a footing or through a foundation wall shall be provided with a relieving arch; or there shall be built into the masonry wall a pipe sleeve two pipe sizes greater than the pipe passing through.

Amongst numerous other requirements (such as packing, waterproofing, protection from freezing, etc. etc.).

Have no idea what a "block 'cripple' wall" is supposed to be. Did you perhaps mean to suggest the block wall might be a "Curtain wall"?

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Have no idea what a "block 'cripple' wall" is supposed to be. Did you perhaps mean to suggest the block wall might be a "Curtain wall"?

Cripple Walls

Garry, cripples are short studs used to fill in short spaces; there isn't such a thing as block cripple walls. Your figure shows short framed walls on top of the foundation.

Watson, masonry and concrete forever expands??? What do you mean?

I blame the mason. The plumber supplies the sleeve and the mason is supposed to build around it.

It is common practice is parts of the country, such as Calif. to platform frame on top of 'cripple wall' rim joists. It's a very convenient form of construction because it makes for a nice hinge to allow the house to fold up better under seismic conditions. This framed cripple wall would still have to sit on an approved masonry foundation such as CMU block or poured concrete. The masonry is not the cripple wall-- the stubby framing on top of it is.

Had a 'discussion with my local code weenie over providing a steel pipe sleeve when installing a gas direct vent fireplace by core drilling a 10" poured concrete foundation. He quoted from the plumbing code. I pointed out that 'venting' is found in Ch. 24 of the IRC under Fuel Gas and since the gas code did not address it, the entire IRC does not address it so my client can legally run their 8" vent pipe through a 9" core and he has no leg to stand on to fail it. BOOM when his head!

I don't get it: cripple walls act as hinges and fold up under seismic forces? And that's a good thing? Do you mean they allow movement so the structure above doesn't bear the brunt of it?

The next slide in the link Garry posted says,

Seismic forces accumulate downward in a building

• Seismic forces in the building are greatest at the base of the building.
• The seismic force at base of the building is called the base shear.
• Earthquakes often damage buildings at this level
• The figure shows base shear damage in a building
  • Weight of the building above the cracking is the shear force that broke the
    building
  • Typically earthquake damage occurs at base of building
• For buildings with cripple walls, the weakest part of the building must
  resist the greatest force.
• This is why retrofit standards require strengthening of the cripple walls.

Kristi, you missed my tone: I was being facetious. No, it is not a good construction technique but there are a zillion homes built that way. Of course, if you wanted to build that way now in Calif. it would require boo coo seismic ties to pinch the framing to the foundation long enough for everyone to egress in the event of a quake.

Originally Posted by Rod Butler

I blame the mason. The plumber supplies the sleeve and the mason is supposed to build around it.

Good point, but I'm not in the blame game, just the facts mam....(jo friday)

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Kristi, you missed my tone: I was being facetious. No, it is not a good construction technique but there are a zillion homes built that way. Of course, if you wanted to build that way now in Calif. it would require boo coo seismic ties to pinch the framing to the foundation long enough for everyone to egress in the event of a quake.

AAAHHHH, no wonder! Facetiousness can be tough to communicate in a post; obviously it went way over my head! Plus I'm not used to you joking around. Emoticons are dandy for such banter.

(BTW, "facetious" is the one common English word that has all 5 vowels in alphabetical order. Fascinating, eh?)

Sorry Kristi, I guess my humor gets more dry than a Sham Wow some days... :-)

Keep up the good posts!

Thx for the aeiou that leaves them to ask 'why' (y) .;-)

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Garry, cripples are short studs used to fill in short spaces; there isn't such a thing as block cripple walls. Your figure shows short framed walls on top of the foundation.

How to Build a Cripple Wall Using Concrete Blocks | eHow.com

Hi Kristi, I have not seen anywhere that a cripple wall had to be wood frame. I did not make up the word or definitions. I only knew the defination of a cripple wall to be one that is not "full height". Block walls can be used in most applications where a framed wall is used. There may be poured bond beams w/ re-bar involved, but masonary block they are. The original photo was a cripple wall and it was made with masonary block.

Garry, on that site they are borrowing the term, improperly I'd say. Cripples are short studs by definition. Cripples often go under and over windows and above doors.

A cripple wall is built on top of the foundation, but the photos in the original post show the foundation wall of a crawl space.

That link you gave is for DIY masonry, telling your how to build the most seismically vulnerable part of a structure in 5 easy steps. That's insane. Not a particularly trustworthy source of info, I'm afraid.

Wow, just saw Watson's post. He and I agree on something!

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Garry, on that site they are borrowing the term, improperly I'd say.
Wow, just saw Watson's post. He and I agree on something!

Yes that appears to be the case. Please forgive my ignorance. Interesting that when framed the term used is cripple wall and if CMU or concrete is used for the same application the term I see is stem wall. It looked like what I have seen described as a cripple wall and it looked like it was constructed with CMUs. Toe-may-toe / Toe-ma-toe to me. Same function, different material. However; being "Absolutely and completely wrong" is such a feel good, provides a comfortable educational platform for sharing and learning and exudes so much positive energy for all to enjoy, let's go with that.

EDIT: just saw Garry's post. There's nothing wrong with "ignorance," nothing to forgive. However, Watson is right that you ought to evaluate the reliability of your sources when you correct someone. Live and learn!

Wow, just saw Watson's post. He and I agree on something!

...and then I saw Watson's edit of his original post, which at first said virtually the same thing I did. Why did you have to change it, HG? It was a good post before, short and to the point. Why did you have to add all the insults, and make your post 6X as long? Garry wasn't even arguing with you...if anything I should be insulting him!

Stem wall is not the same as a cripple wall. Stem walls raise the sill plate off the slab or footing, while cripple walls sit on foundation walls: they are already raised up. Stem walls are part of the foundation.

[quote=Kristi Silber;196138]EDIT: just saw Garry's post. There's nothing wrong with "ignorance," nothing to forgive. However, Watson is right that you ought to evaluate the reliability of your sources when you correct someone. Live and learn!

Copy on the live and learn. I was not correcting, but attempting to explain my thought path. I truly had never seen anything that stipulated a cripple wall had to be wood framing, now I have. So the footing looks to be concrete. Subsequently about three courses of CMU wall is added and that block extension to the footing is called what ? Not an argumentitive question, just a question. Another question; a CMU wall is used / built that is not full height. What is it called ? Not picking on you or calling you out. I just find you a bit kinder and gentler information source than His Omnipotence.

Thanks for the kinder gentler, although considering the comparison referred to it wouldn't take much! Anyway, I hope I can help.

There seem to be a few definitions of stem wall, depending partly on regional differences. The most common usage seems to be a concrete/cmu wall built around the edge of a slab or on top of a footing and rising above grade to support the framed structure up off the ground.



Here's another interpretation, where the stem wall is on the footing and a slab "rests" on the stem wall. The wall acts as a retaining wall for soil within under the house (as opposed to foundation walls in a basement or crawl space, which do the opposite. One of the main differences between a cripple wall and a stem wall is that a cripple wall is always entirely above grade.

That's how I see it, anyway. Maybe others will chime in.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Wow, just saw Watson's post. He and I agree on something!

Keisti.... When you deal with a Watson post---you need to quote only what you may agree with... Be specific! Most of his comment is an insulting, belittling, rant, and I hope you don't agree with all that!