Thread: On demand WH is ruining the concrete.

This NTI Trinity On Demand gas water heater is spilling acid onto the sidewalk.
The exhaust vent appears to be ABS. I called for a discharge tube on the PRV and repair by a qualified gas heating technician.

Does anyone see a problem with this installation that I should know about?

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Did they cut out the foundation wall to install this?

Should be PVC Schedule 40, 6" dia vent. Never seen ABS used, ever!
Condensate line looks suspicious, partially clogged.

NTI - NY Thermal Inc. :: Gas Boilers - Trinity Ti

See also installation manual

http://www.nythermal.com/uploads/fil...2012-04-09.pdf

Without a better close-up view, my guess is that carbonation is occuring in the concrete matrix. That being, an excess of carbon dioxide in the exhaust moisture being steadily deposited on the concrete surface. Have seen similar (but far more destructive) examples on newer concrete surfaces exposed to carbon dioxide combustion products, to the extent of large chunks of corner concrete bridge parapets breaking off. Nasty stuff, that carbon dioxide.

And to think it's in every single breath that we all exhale. Good thing the trees around us love it, and replace it with oxygen. Is this a great planet, or what?!

Check the Trinity website there is a safety recall that might be related to this.

NTI - NY Thermal Inc. :: Important Safety Updates

Important Safety Recall
NY Thermal Inc. has determined that the condensate fitting located within the boiler may prematurely deteriorate. As NY Thermal Inc. cannot predict the occurrence of the anomaly, the condensate fittings must be replaced immediately.
Models Covered
All Trinity boilers manufactured between Nov. 28, 2005 and Jan. 8, 2007, or serial numbers greater than 06T-16000 must be upgraded. See diagram for location of information.

What to Do
1. If your boiler was manufactured between Nov. 28, 2005 and Jan. 8, 2007, contact the person you purchased the unit from and advise that you require an immediate and mandatory safety update.
2. If you are unsure if your unit falls between the specified dates, contact NY Thermal Inc. and we will determine this for you. Please provide the serial number displayed on the silver decal on the outer casing of the boiler. (Example 06T-1234)
Details
Trinity Ti 400 Safety Condensate Tee Upgrade
Trinity Ti 100-200 Safety Condensate Y Upgrade
For More Information
Contact NY Thermal Inc. at 1-800-688-2575.

According to the manual ABS is NOT approved for the venting... if it turns out to be abs

My guess is that the vent is tipped outward allowing condensate to spill on the concrete... the vent should be tipped inward to eliminate the possibility of freezing in the winter.

The condensate piping off the boiler should take care of any moisture produced.

John,
Are extensions required on the TPR valves up there?

Gas appliance mounted on plywood, not thrilled with that. you'd have to check the manual for separation requirements
is that a functional service walk in front of that exhaust? If so then check local requirements for clearances

I beleive that the air intake and exhaust flues should be pitched back toward the unit with a condensate drain installed. This would eliminate the dripping onto sidewalk. I just noticed Steve addressed this already.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Did they cut out the foundation wall to install this?

That's a wood framed wall with concrete below the housing. The cut material is white styrofoam, It is exposed, but it's in a crawlspace, in the grey area. I think it should be drywalled.

Originally Posted by BridgeMan

Without a better close-up view, my guess is that carbonation is occuring in the concrete matrix. That being, an excess of carbon dioxide in the exhaust moisture being steadily deposited on the concrete surface.

I said 'acid', but I think we agree, it is the condensate from incomplete combustion which is eating up the concrete. As the other guys are saying, the exhaust vent is all wrong.
What is odd, is that the drip appears to be coming from the air intake.

Originally Posted by Brian T

Check the Trinity website there is a safety recall that might be related to this.

NTI - NY Thermal Inc. :: Important Safety Updates

Important Safety Recall
NY Thermal Inc. has determined that the condensate fitting located within the boiler may prematurely deteriorate. As NY Thermal Inc. cannot predict the occurrence of the anomaly, the condensate fittings must be replaced immediately.
Models Covered
All Trinity boilers manufactured between Nov. 28, 2005 and Jan. 8, 2007, or serial numbers greater than 06T-16000 must be upgraded. See diagram for location of information.

What to Do
1. If your boiler was manufactured between Nov. 28, 2005 and Jan. 8, 2007, contact the person you purchased the unit from and advise that you require an immediate and mandatory safety update.
2. If you are unsure if your unit falls between the specified dates, contact NY Thermal Inc. and we will determine this for you. Please provide the serial number displayed on the silver decal on the outer casing of the boiler. (Example 06T-1234)
Details
Trinity Ti 400 Safety Condensate Tee Upgrade
Trinity Ti 100-200 Safety Condensate Y Upgrade
For More Information
Contact NY Thermal Inc. at 1-800-688-2575.

Ser # 03T - 6202. This one's OK. Good info.

Originally Posted by Bob Wisnewski

John,
Are extensions required on the TPR valves up there?

I called for one to be installed. We have a good gas code, but it is not enforced and there are some careless installers out there.

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

Gas appliance mounted on plywood, not thrilled with that. you'd have to check the manual for separation requirements
is that a functional service walk in front of that exhaust? If so then check local requirements for clearances

Thanks, Marcus. This is an 8 year old installation. I suspect it was never properly inspected.

Thanks, Raymond. I'll take a look at that manual. 3 or 4" is correct for that size heater, but you are right, ABS is not.

John, I really didn't look closely at all the pictures at first. Is this being used to supply hot water for heating also?

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

John, I really didn't look closely at all the pictures at first. Is this being used to supply hot water for heating also?

Yes, the plumbing to the left is infloor heating. The white pex pipes going to the right are for domestic.

The system was working well enough, but there are some installation issues, no doubt. The valve above the expansion tank is weeping a bit.

I am wondering if any others are concerned about the fact that the hot water for radiant is stagnant in the summer and the possibility of bacteria growth or is this a closed system where the two cannot cross connect. I usually include this narrative:
A hydronic/domestic hot water (DHW) system is installed, where one water heater supplies hot water for both potable water (drinking, washing and bathing) and for heating interior spaces. This appears to be an "open" system, where a cross connect allows water from the hydronic loop to mix with water from the potable water loop. This type of system can act as an "amplifier" for Legionella bacteria due to stagnant water being at low temperatures in the hydronic loop when the interior space heating system is inactive. This poses a risk for Legionnaires' disease. Such "open" systems are not allowed in some municipalities due to this risk. Recommend consulting with a qualified hydronic heating specialist to discuss alternatives and/or modifications to this system.
For more information, visit this link:
Legionnaires' disease by Dave Yates - MasterPlumbers.com PlumbViews

The Trinity Combi unit has a heat exchanger for DHW. It's not an open system. I assume this is the Combi unit since it has the connections present for DHW. The Standard Ti150 requires a tank for DHW.

Thanks Jim, It looked like to me that the photo shows the heat and culinary teeing off of same line at left side.

The domestic hot water pipe has a drain line that looks like it connects to the pipe below, but does not. There are 2 separate loops. The silver unit is a mixing valve to temper the DHW.

Thanks John.

After looking at some information online I belive it's a boiler/water heater. It is a 90%+ condensing unit. PVC pipe is used for flue pipes in these types of boilers, in my opinion there should not be a problem with the ABS. See what others say.

The installation instructions only state PVC/CPVC is to be used.

http://www.nythermal.com/uploads/fil...2012-04-09.pdf

General Installation Requirements
The installation of the NTI Trinity Ti gas boiler must conform to the requirements of this manual, your local authority, and the National Fuel Gas Code ANSI Z223.1 and or CAN/CGA B149 Installation Codes. Where required by the Authority Having Jurisdiction, the installation must conform to the standard for “Controls and Safety Devices for Automatically Fired Boilers ANSI/ASME CSD-1.

See this article.

Venting with plastic - Plumbing & HVAC: Canada's #1 magazine serving the mechanical trades.