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Thread: S-Trap

  1. #1
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    Default S-Trap

    Found this S-trap repair at inspection today. There is a trap behind leg of pedestal sink (couldn't get good picture of). They installed mechanical vent at top of pipe where it goes up under sink in first picture. Will this stop water from siphoning out of trap? What do you think?

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    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Found this S-trap repair at inspection today. There is a trap behind leg of pedestal sink (couldn't get good picture of). They installed mechanical vent at top of pipe where it goes up under sink in first picture. Will this stop water from siphoning out of trap? What do you think?
    .
    Tom,

    There is No Trap shown for water to siphon from.
    .just a small crook in the waste line.

    *a mechanical vent facilitates waste water removal, not slow it down.
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Billy, There is a trap behind the pedestal where chrome pipe starts, you just can't see it.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Billy, There is a trap behind the pedestal where chrome pipe starts, you just can't see it.
    .
    *a mechanical vent facilitates waste water removal, not slow it down.
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    No S-trap present. My guess is there used to be an S trap set-up, they got dinged for it and the repair with the mechanical vent was their way of fixing it.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Markus, In your opinion is this a good fix? I also use that line a lot. The code is a minimum requirement.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    I don't know what Markus thinks of it, but it is acceptable to me. The chrome trap will not siphon with the AAV in the line. In some jurisdictions they don't allow an AAV.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    It is fine. Minimum 4" up from trap.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    As a fix it's fine for me if that type of arrangement is allowed in that area. Most of the time if an old S trap has been DIY replaced they just put in a 90 on top of the pipe going into the floor, trap at the fixture and no venting at all.
    That AAV set-up however isn't allowed around here; so i would have to write it as non-compliant.
    i was in paris and saw an AAV on a toilet run, so whether an AAV fine or not i guess really depends on perspective.
    Yeah, developers really hate it when you explain to the client that the Code is a minimum standard. Especially rough when they've spent so much time telling the client they build to Code.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post

    It is fine. Minimum 4" up from trap.
    .
    So it's Fine on a S-Trap ?
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Found this S-trap repair at inspection today. There is a trap behind leg of pedestal sink (couldn't get good picture of). They installed mechanical vent at top of pipe where it goes up under sink in first picture. Will this stop water from siphoning out of trap? What do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Billy nothing is fine on an S-trap it will still have to much force and dry out the trap.
    .
    Tom said this was a S-Trap so we can all agree This is Not an Approved Fix.
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Markus, Love your vacation picture.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    I feel like I am quoting the entire thread here, but it is really only just a few posts:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    It is fine. Minimum 4" up from trap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    So it's Fine on a S-Trap ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Billy nothing is fine on an S-trap it will still have to much force and dry out the trap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Tom said this was a S-Trap so we can all agree This is Not an Approved Fix.
    Firsts, the drawing Rich posted is an incorrect drawing. The drawing shows 4" between the AAV vent and the top of the fixture arm, which is incorrect, the 4" is measured between the AAV vent and the trap weir, which is the top of the bottom of the fixture arm at the trap end - see modified drawing.

    Billy, yes, if an AAV is PROPERLY installed on an S-trap, then it is no longer an S-trap, it is a properly vented trap. Which would make it an approved fix.

    Not that the first reference in this thread to that AAV was to it as a "mechanical" vent, and an AAV is not a mechanical vent, it is an air admittance valve.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Regards to Jerry saying my diagaram is incorrect......
    This diagaram, shows the same 4", measured the same way.
    The digaram is from the "Code Check Series" of books. / illustrations.

    I dont know, maybe the so called "experts" are all wrong.
    One says on thing, one says another.
    "Code Check" is considered a fairly good resorce for inspectors!

    But thanks Jerry

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Regards to Jerry saying my diagaram is incorrect......
    This diagaram, shows the same 4", measured the same way.
    The digaram is from the "Code Check Series" of books. / illustrations.

    I dont know, maybe the so called "experts" are all wrong.
    One says on thing, one says another.
    "Code Check" is considered a fairly good resorce for inspectors!

    But thanks Jerry
    Unfortunately, those references are also incorrect at times, just like I am, only this time I am not the one who is incorrect: Over the years we have, on this site, found many errors in the Code Check references - while the Code Check references are an excellent reference guide, they are not code or installation instructions.

    As you said: ""Code Check" is considered a fairly good resorce for inspectors!", and you should take it as just that. I', not knocking them, just agreeing with you.

    This: "The air admittance valve must be located a minimum of 4 inches above the weir of the trap. However, the valve may be located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented." is from page 5 here: http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf

    That is from the horse's mouth, so to speak ... that IS the correct information, and is what I said.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    [QUOTE=Kevin Wood;201986]IRC 2006 P3114.4 Location. Individual and branch air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4 inches above the horizontal branch drain being vented.
    This would tell me that it is not from the weir but from the crown.[/qutoe]

    I realize you had not read my post above as I was typing as you were posting.

    And the picture we started with cannot be corrected by just an AAV.
    The photos in the original post CAN be, and were, corrected by the installation of an AAV which met the requirements of the code and the installation instructions.

    Please explain to me why the AAV did not, and cannot be used to, correct that.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Jerry,
    Looks like just another opinion to me. No Code referances.

    I'm not knocking you at all, You have helped me many times,
    but some people get a bit carried away here. Measured from the
    top / the bottom! Its a drain, not brain surgery!
    A published book on "codes", is good enough for me.

    Thanks Again


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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Thank for the code ref Kevin.
    The "code diagaram" I posted appears proper.


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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Jerry,
    Looks like just another opinion to me. No Code referances.

    I'm not knocking you at all, You have helped me many times,
    but some people get a bit carried away here. Measured from the
    top / the bottom! Its a drain, not brain surgery!
    A published book on "codes", is good enough for me.

    Thanks Again
    Rich,

    "Looks like just another opinion to me."????

    That is from the MANUFACTURER and that is HOW it is REQUIRED to be INSTALLED.

    As you wish, just don't hang your hat on those other references which are just opinions. It's your neck and your reputation, not mine. Go for it.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    So you say leave the S configuration and add a AAV and you will not have the siphon problem?
    There is no S configuration shown in the photos with the original post.

    If you think there is, please explain where the S trap configuration is - you must be seeing something that I am not.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Again.... IT's a drain! and were talking about minor measurment issues
    that will not make much of a differance.
    But thanks


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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    .
    Tom said this was a S-Trap so we can all agree This is Not an Approved Fix.
    .
    .
    Well, I Guess Not.
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Again.... IT's a drain! and were talking about minor measurment issues that will not make much of a differance.
    "minor measurment issues that will not make much of a differance"

    Apparently there is some knowledge missing on just how critical those measurement issues are and just how much difference they will make.

    Do you know why there is a limit to the length of a trap arm and why that length is based on the size of the pipe in the trap arm?

    Yeah ... "IT's a drain!" ... and you want to keep draining, don't you!

    I ask again, you, Kevin, Billy, or anyone:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    There is no S configuration shown in the photos with the original post.

    If you think there is, please explain where the S trap configuration is - you must be seeing something that I am not.
    No one willing to show me what I am missing in those photos? Ummm ... wonder why ...

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Jerry I am the one that said it could not be an S-trap.
    Okay, we agree there, at least the two of us do.

    As for the 4 inch rule it should be at the top crown anyways as this is better than being lower.
    Even Studor Vent allows it to be higher, the 4" above the weir is the minimum height.

    Code and installation instructions address things in a way which allows/prohibits things, such as 'at least'/'not less than'/etc (minimum) or 'shall not exceed'/'maximum'/etc (maximum).

    One example of a stated maximum is:
    - TABLE P3105.1
    - - MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF FIXTURE TRAP FROM VENT

    The reason for the above is this:
    - P3105.1 Distance of trap from vent. Each fixture trap shall have a protecting vent located so that the slope and the developed length in the fixture drain from the trap weir to the vent fitting are within the requirements set forth in Table P3105.1.
    - - Exception: The developed length of the fixture drain from the trap weir to the vent fitting for self-siphoning fixtures, such as water closets, shall not be limited.

    It is the trap weir which rules with regard to distances, and the maximum length of the fixture drain must not exceed a length which will cut the air off at the vent fitting, which does not mean "at the vent fitting" per se, but at the top of the inside of the vent fitting. I.e., you can take a length of pipe and look through the opening at one end with the pipe level, now lower the other end of the pipe, when you can no longer see daylight through the opening at the other end, that slope, for that size pipe and that length of pipe, will no longer vent. See attached drawing.

    I don't like to mention code and I certainly would not put it like the manufacture says unless this was standard practice taught by Carson Dunlop, InterNachi, IRC and any others that I have gone through.
    I do believe they made a mistake on the PDF it happens all the time.
    You would put those others above the manufacturers requirements? EEK! is right!

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    One other piece of info Jerry the only time the manufacture over rules the codes is if the conditions would violate the listing of the equipment or appliance, in this case no violation would occur to follow the more stringent info.
    ".
    Are you sure about that? All I've ever seen in the code books, is the manufactures specs always over ride the code.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Fla. Jerry has got his 'trap' weir and his 'crown' weir mixed up again. The diagram R.S. posted was exactly correct.The Studor min. is 4" (+ depending on trade size of the plumbing employed)above the CROWN weir - that's top (air/pressure) side escape, not trap spill (liquids/solids) point (trap weir).The compartmented or 'partition' "trap" was NOT pictured, as per the OP, it is chromed and is set in the ped. before the trap arm. There is no "vented 'S' " trap, period (.) exclamation point (!).

    The section he quoted most recently above has NOTHING to do with the required height ABOVE the crown weir, but refers to the DEVELOPED LENGTH beyond the trap weir for a trap arm BEFORE the vent. He's talking apples and oranges, and although BOTH factors must be considered in the fluid dynamics, scour, maintaining trap seal, etc. they are distinctly and completely DIFFERENT prescriptions and proscriptions.

    Technically, the diaphram IS a moving part, hence the 'mechical' nature of the air admittnce VALVE, (which does not VENT, as in 'plumbing' DWV), but admits air only, WHEN it is functioning properly. The A.A.V. is an ALTERNATIVE to venting which is approved in limited jurisdictions with LIMITATIONS. It is a substitue for fixture venting but does not actually vent (exit, escape) directly (think of it as the 'Roach Motel' or 'Hotel California' of venting alternatives - when working properly, it lets air IN so as to displace/equalize/allow (prevent vacuum) for the drainage/waste to flow but doesn't let air/vapors EXIT/VENT directly via the device -- to ATMOSPHERE).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-02-2012 at 10:22 PM.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    I want to make sure I understand this. It is the horizontal run that makes this not a S-trap? I'm talking about my original picture.

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    Last edited by Tom Rees; 07-03-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Thanks Kevin

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    One other piece of info Jerry the only time the manufacture over rules the codes is if the conditions would violate the listing of the equipment or appliance, in this case no violation would occur to follow the more stringent info.
    You have yet to post where the code is more stringent. The previously posted code language does not specify where the measurement is too - unless I missed it, if so, please point it out. Thanks.

    My Studor vent pdf says above the crown by 4".
    Would you post it, you can post pdf here. Thanks.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Fla. Jerry has got his 'trap' weir and his 'crown' weir mixed up again. The diagram R.S. posted was exactly correct.The Studor min. is 4" (+ depending on trade size of the plumbing employed)above the CROWN weir - that's top (air/pressure) side escape, not trap spill (liquids/solids) point (trap weir).
    Watson needs to put his reading glasses on before he comments with incorrect information ... I will use bold, underlining, and red to make it easier for Watson to see the words:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This: "The air admittance valve must be located a minimum of 4 inches above the weir of the trap. However, the valve may be located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented." is from page 5 here: http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf

    That is from the horse's mouth, so to speak ... that IS the correct information, and is what I said.


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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    I want to make sure I understand this. It is the horizontal run that makes this not a S-trap? I'm talking about my original picture.
    That's still an S trap. Basically, you need a vent which goes *up* to eliminate the S trap.

    You could add an AAV to the second drawing and then you would have a p-trap.

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Here is what mine says Jerry
    Manufacturer Studor Inc Item # 20346 PVC connector
    Location A. The air admittance valve shall be located a minimum of 4" above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented.
    It is a PDF but not worth me trying to print and copy for such a small issue.
    You can't correct an S-trap unless you add a horizontal run even if you do add a AAV.
    .
    1 pdf.
    .

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    studor isn't the only rodeo in town
    other mfr instruct 4" min. above horizontal branch/trap arm
    hard to understand a diagram being wrong if the weir ht. plus pipe dimension exceeds 4" minimum

    http://quickvent.net/images/quickven...ction_i917.jpg

    http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...ctionSheet.pdf

    y'all have a great 4th and try not to stress over those diagrams

    Last edited by BARRY ADAIR; 07-04-2012 at 04:27 AM.
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    From Barry's PDF the installation instructions qoute the trap be 6 inches above flood rim level, I have seen this before. This would be impossible in most applications I have seen because the vent is under cabinet? Could somebody clarify please, Thanks. Oops, read again and that is one of the options, where the hell would a recessed box be.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Tom Rees,

    Regarding your OP and the following wandering converstation:

    This does not appear to be a vent stack or stack vent alternative - but an individual (fixture) or branch vent alternative, with AAV and doesn't appear to be a compliant installation as you have BOTH described AND pictured.

    The Plumbing chapters of the IRC (IF adopted, and IF adopted unmmended) and the applicable sections & subsections of the IPC (IF adopted, and IF adopted unmmended), provide for a permissive use of an AAV IF employed as per "the code", period.

    Both the IPC and the IRC plumbing chapters require the trap, trap arm, drainage, and/or stack meet the STRICTER requirements of "the code" (prescriptions and proscriptions) FIRST, AND additionally the manufacturer's instructions. The "Code" requires a greater minimum height than Jerry Peck's "opinion" of an un-referenced, supposed, manufacturer's instruction - which I disagree as to his uneducated "opinion", as to just WHAT that supposed unadulterated language is referring to, "engineering", etc.-wise, anyway. The use is limited as to its APPROVAL - and again - limited to the restrictions of THE CODE.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC
    P2608.2 Installation of materials. All materials used shall be installed in strict accordance with the standards under which the materials are accepted and approved. In the absence of such installation procedures, the manufacturer's installation instructions shall be followed. Where the requirements of referenced standards or manufacturer's installation instructions do not conform to the minimum provisions of this code, the provisions of this code shall apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC
    SECTION P3101 VENT SYSTEMS
    P3101.1 General. This chapter shall govern the selection and installation of piping, tubing and fittings for vent systems. This chapter shall control the minimum diameter of vent pipes, circuit vents, branch vents and individual vents, and the size and length of vents and various aspects of vent stacks and stack vents. Additionally, this chapter regulates vent grades and connections, height above fixtures and relief vents for stacks and fixture traps, and the venting of sumps and sewers.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC
    SECTION P3104 VENT CONNECTIONS AND GRADES

    3104.1 Connection. All individual branch and circuit vents shall connect to a vent stack, stack vent or extend to the open air.

    Exception: Individual, branch and circuit vents shall be permitted to terminate at an air admittance valve in accordance with Section P3114.

    P3104.3 Vent connection to drainage system. Every dry vent connecting to a horizontal drain shall connect above the centerline of the horizontal drain pipe.

    P3104.4 Vertical rise of vent. Every dry vent shall rise vertically to a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest trap or trapped fixture being vented.

    P3104.5 Height above fixtures. A connection between a vent pipe and a vent stack or stack vent shall be made at least 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest fixture served by the vent. Horizontal vent pipes forming branch vents shall be at least 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest fixture served.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC

    SECTION P3105 FIXTURE VENTS

    P3105.1 Distance of trap from vent. Each fixture trap shall have a protecting vent located so that the slope and the developed length in the fixture drain from the trap weir to the vent fitting are within the requirements set forth in Table P3105.1.

    Exception: The developed length of the fixture drain from the trap weir to the vent fitting for self-siphoning fixtures, such as water closets, shall not be limited.

    TABLE P3105.1 MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF FIXTURE TRAP FROM VENT

    P3105.2 Fixture drains. The total fall in a fixture drain resulting from pipe slope shall not exceed one pipe diameter, nor shall the vent pipe connection to a fixture drain, except for water closets, be below the weir of the trap.

    P3105.3 Crown vent. A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.
    SECTION P3106 INDIVIDUAL VENT

    P3106.1 Individual vent permitted. Each trap and trapped fixture is permitted to be provided with an individual vent. The individual vent shall connect to the fixture drain of the trap or trapped fixture being vented.
    Most importantly:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC
    SECTION P3114 AIR ADMITTANCE VALVES
    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 IRC

    P3114.1 General. Vent systems using air admittance valves shall comply with this section. Individual and branch-type air admittance valves shall conform to ASSE 1051. Stack-type air admittance valves shall conform to ASSE 1050.

    P3114.2 Installation. The valves shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of this section and the manufacturer's installation instructions. Air admittance valves shall be installed after the DWV testing required by Section P2503.5.1 or P2503.5.2 has been performed.

    P3114.3 Where permitted. Individual vents, branch vents, circuit vents and stack vents shall be permitted to terminate with a connection to an air admittance valve. Individual and branch type air admittance valves shall vent only fixtures that are on the same floor level and connect to a horizontal branch drain.

    P3114.4 Location. Individual and branch air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented. Stack-type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest fixture being vented. The air admittance valve shall be located within the maximum developed length permitted for the vent. The air admittance valve shall be installed a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above insulation materials where installed in attics.

    P3114.5 Access and ventilation. Access shall be provided to all air admittance valves. The valve shall be located within a ventilated space that allows air to enter the valve.

    P3114.6 Size. The air admittance valve shall be rated for the size of the vent to which the valve is connected.

    P3114.7 Vent required. Within each plumbing system, a minimum of one stack vent or a vent stack shall extend outdoors to the open air.

    P3114.8 Prohibited installations. Air admittance valves without an engineered design shall not be used to vent sumps or tanks of any type.
    THE CODE requires when an AAV is employed on a horizontal/lateral (arm, branch, etc.) that it be a MINIMUM of four inches ABOVE said horizontal. There is NO discussion of the trap wier relative to the MINIMUM height above the horizontal drainage pipe requirement as to this. When an AAV is employed on a combination or a vertical member drain, fixture or branch serving then it must be a minimum of six inches above the flood rim, just as a dry vent connection must be.

    Others have represented that their INCORRECT application of language from certain unreferenced documents in some way SUPERCEED the RESTRICTIVE (proscriptive) and required language (prescriptive requirements) and PERMISSIVE, but CONDITIONAL (allowances, alternatives which are not required but IF employed MUST meet requirements of "the code") of both the IRC (multiple editions) and the IPC.

    There is no validity in J. Peck's assertion that his misintrepretation of manufacturer's language regarding minimum height above a horizontal trap arm in anyway superceeds the MINIMUM height requirements of the IRC or IPC. Both 'codes' REQUIRE a MINIMUM height above the TOP of the horizontal arm or branch for the AAV (four inches). A misprint or misreading indicating LESS than that four inches WOULD NOt be compliant WITH EITHER THE IPC OR IRC.

    The original "code check" diagram posted by another, IS EXACTLY CORRECT. Jerry Peck's "modification" and assertions regarding same is WRONG.

    The minimum developed length between the trap weir and any vent or vent alternative - is a COMPLETELY different topic.

    Most of the continuing discussion has been muddled and wrong.

    The pictured and described is NOT an "S" Trap. Those metal partition traps sold with fixtures are just that.

    The pictured and described fixture drainage & venting plus AAV installation requires correction to meet IPC or IRC applicable chapters, sections & subsections IF adopted unammended in your jurisdiction - at the time the work was done.

    It would not have met UPC requirements prior.

    Regarding your most recent post immediately above, and quoted below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees
    (1.) From Barry's PDF the installation instructions qoute the trap be 6 inches above flood rim level, I have seen this before. This would be impossible in most applications I have seen because the vent is under cabinet? (2.) Could somebody clarify please, Thanks. Oops, read again and that is one of the options, (3.) where the hell would a recessed box be.
    (1.) There is no such requirement for "the trap" to be above the flood level rim of a fixture. The requirement is for a vent yoke/dry vent, or stack-vent (or vent stack) type AAV to be employed a minimum of six inches above the flood level rim.

    (2.) An individual or branch type AAV is the type which is employed venting off a HORIZONTAL drain, trap arm, branch, etc. These are the type which must be a minimum of FOUR inches ABOVE the horizontal (lateral) DRAIN (pipe) and can be found when properly installed under a lavatory or sink in a cabinet.

    Two different "type" AAVs - two different requirements - one is employed off (above) a horizontal drainage pipe - the other is installed atop a stack pipe (vertical).

    Traps ABOVE flood level rims wouldn't make sense for gravity drainage of lavatory. Pumps are a different matter - and AAVs, etc. aren't allowed non-engineered situations.

    (3.) For in-the wall, floor/ceiling, etc. plumbing - a recessed "box", generally with an accessible & removable grille cover allowing for air-flow/venting and to disquise the plain view, or without a cover if employed in-the-wall behind an open lavatory/sink cabinet; are often found in-the-wall recessed from the wall covering, or in-the-ceiling (floor/ceiling cavity).

    HTH.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-04-2012 at 11:38 AM.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    That is one of them but on another it says from the trap weir! This is the reason I will stick with IRC until they ask us to make that longer.
    I keep pointing this out, but I guess I have to post it too - the IRC *does not state what some are saying it does*:
    - SECTION P3114
    - - AIR ADMITTANCE VALVES
    - - - P3114.4 Location. Individual and branch air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented. Stack-type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest fixture being vented. The air admittance valve shall be located within the maximum developed length permitted for the vent. The air admittance valve shall be installed a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above insulation materials where installed in attics.

    That does *not* state that you measure from the top as some of you guys are saying. The manufacturer, on the other hand, does state where to measure from.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  37. #37
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    It actually DOES SAY that Peck. I already quoted the sections & subsections that apply.

    Obviously you don't KNOW (or have forgotten yet again, or confused yourself, YET AGAIN) as to what the words, terms, and phrases especially regarding prescriptives and permissives, orientation, etc. being used in "the code" (IRC plumbing chapters, IPC) actually MEAN as petains to plumbing, drainage, venting, the standards incorporated & referenced therein, etc.

    Even a "plain languge" reading of the section you re-quote clearly states this.

    P3114.4 Location. Individual and branch air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented. Stack-type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest fixture being vented. The air admittance valve shall be located within the maximum developed length permitted for the vent. The air admittance valve shall be installed a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above insulation materials where installed in attics.

    Just what do you THINK constitutes a "horizontal drain"???

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-04-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    It actually DOES SAY that Peck. I already quoted the sections & subsections that apply.
    It actually DOES NOT SAY THAT, WATSON. YOU ARE ADDING YOUR IMAGINATION INTO IT AGAIN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    That does *not* state that you measure from the top as some of you guys are saying.
    It DOES state that you measure 4", it DOES NOT state that you measure the 4" above the top of the pipe. When talking about DRAINS, the drains are at the trap weir ... oh, wait ... that was another you got wrong and walked away from to not look foolish defending your silly position that it was referring to the crown at the vent ...

    The code states that you measure 4", yep - it does, the code does not state that you measure it from the top of the pipe, nope - it does not.

    Just what do you THINK constitutes a "horizontal drain"???
    Watson, what a jerk you are, one could have an open drain ... remember those things ... where was "the top" you would measure from? Oh, wait, you measured above the trap weir ... yeah, those open drains are no longer allowed.

    It does not matter if you are using 1-1/4" for a lavatory or 6" for a lavatory, the trap weir *will be the same* ... *the height of the pipe will change*.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 07-04-2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: fixing a quote - missing "]" at end
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  39. #39
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    Lightbulb Re: S-Trap

    You're beyond reason Peck!

    As usual you resort to personal attacks, name-calling and non-professional behavior in yet-another-of your "classic" tantrums, when you stick your virtual foot in your virtual mouth on a subject you do not understand.

    You do NOT measure the elevation for a vent from the trap weir! You measure the developed length of the arm (prior to vent opening) from same.

    A dry vent opening for a horizontal drain may not begin/connect below the center-line (half-point) of a horizontal drain pipe.

    P3104.3 Vent connection to drainage system. Every dry vent connecting to a horizontal drain shall connect above the centerline of the horizontal drain pipe.
    Open (uncontained) drains were naturally vented to atmosphere ?!? - just like an irrigation ditch! Which has NOTHING to do with the subject!!!

    I suspect you have lost your marbles and/or desperately burring your blunders and lack of understanding of fluid dynamics, in B.S.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-04-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You're beyond reason Peck!
    Not to worry, Watson, you've been so far beyond reason and reasonable for so long that we ignore as much as possible.

    As usual you resort to personal attacks, name-calling and non-professional behavior in yet-another-of your "classic" tantrums, when you stick your virtual foot in your virtual mouth on a subject you do not understand.
    Let me get this straight ... your post are always correct, above board, and professional and never any name calling??? Watson, you need to get back on your meds and go back an edit your posts (a total re-write would be in order if you were to do as you want others to do).

    You do NOT measure the elevation for a vent from the trap weir! You measure the developed length of the arm (prior to vent opening) from same.
    Watson, you have really and truly gone all loopy on us now. Sheesh! The discussion is HOW HIGH THE AAV IS PLACED ... the discussion HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH trap arm length ...

    ... Oh, wait! I just got it! Man you are good! You ALMOST got me on that one! That was just another one of your re-direction shuffle attempts to mis-direct us from your incorrect answers to another answer for a question which was not asked ... I ALMOST missed that effort on your part ... ALMOST missed it, but I got it as I was typing my reply.

    Sheesh, Watson, you ALMOST had me on that mis-direction re-direction shuffle - sorry to say, Ol' Buddy, but you suffered a loss of yardage on that play.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  41. #41
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ....

    Billy, yes, if an AAV is PROPERLY installed on an S-trap, then it is no longer an S-trap, it is a properly vented trap. Which would make it an approved fix.
    The above is too stupenous to do anything other than laugh out loud.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    .
    The above is too stupenous to do anything other than laugh out loud.
    .
    Alright Lets leave Him outta this.
    .
    Stupenous man image by elvisdaking on Photobucket
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: S-Trap

    oops, dropped a 'D'.


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