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  1. #1
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    Default CROSS CONNECTION

    hey all

    would you call this a cross connection--washing machine draining into laundry sink--note waste pipe right behing

    thanks

    cvf

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    hey all

    would you call this a cross connection--washing machine draining into laundry sink--note waste pipe right behing

    thanks

    cvf
    With the faucet above the sink rim I would not. To me no it's difference than it draining in the standpipe behind the washer .

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    No. Plenty of air gap there.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    No. Plenty of air gap there.
    You do mean air break don't you?

    No cross connection.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    You do mean air break don't you?

    No cross connection.
    Ya, that distance thingy

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    A cross connection would have the sink or tub spout opening for the potable water supply being below the flood rim of the sink or tub. As long as the opening where the potable water comes out will not ever be below the flood rim and in direct contact with grey water, no cross connection. Once the water enters the washer during the wash cycle, it is no longer potable water.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  7. #7
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    You do mean air break don't you?

    No cross connection.
    Rick, UPC 603.2.1 uses "GAP" thingy..... ya had me scratching my head for a while.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Not a cross connection. I usually see that in old homes where no one has taken the trouble to add a washer drain access into the cast iron or copper drain line.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Rick, UPC 603.2.1 uses "GAP" thingy..... ya had me scratching my head for a while.
    What was pictured is an Air Break, not an air gap

    AIR BREAK (DRAINAGE SYSTEM). An arrangement in
    which a discharge pipe from a fixture, appliance or device
    drains indirectly into a receptor belowthe flood-level rim of the
    receptor, and above the trap seal.

    AIRGAP, DRAINAGESYSTEM. The unobstructed vertical
    distance through free atmosphere between the outlet of a waste
    pipe and the flood-level rim of the fixture or receptor into
    which it is discharging.

    What is required (2006 IRC) is an air break not an air gap

    SECTION P2718
    CLOTHES WASHING MACHINE
    P2718.1 Waste connection. The discharge from a clothes
    washing machine shall be through an air break.

    The difference between them is
    Air gap is above the flood level rim
    Air break is below the flood level rim

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 11-12-2012 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Corrected, replaced air break with air gap
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell
    What is required (2006 IRC) is an air break not an air break
    Which is it Rick?

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  11. #11
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Which is it Rick?
    Thanks
    I made the correction

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    You need both an air gap (distribution) i.e. the faucet to the laundry tub; AND an air break (drainage), i.e. the washing machine discharge to the tub. The air break is insufficient as the discharge has been altered to create an extension, screening and wicking device.

    AIR GAP, WATER-DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. The unobstructed vertical distance through free atmosphere between the lowest opening from a water supply discharge to the flood-level rim of a plumbing fixture.

    AIR BREAK (DRAINAGE SYSTEM). An arrangement in which a discharge pipe from a fixture, appliance or device drains indirectly into a receptor below the flood-level rim of the receptor, and above the trap seal.
    The faucet is far and above the flood level rim of the laundry tub - the necessary air gap, distribution.

    The air break, drainage is suspect. First the laundry tub has a limited drain and the rate of spillage will rise the level of water in the tub, which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem if the OEM gooseneck were merely there - but the occupant has extended upon that gooseneck, with what looks to be one of those (costs somewhere between a quarter each to as much as a buck-fifty) netted "socks" to zip tie to the gooseneck spout to catch "lint" and is directly attached to the discharge gooseneck. This does set in the flooded laundry tray, breeds bacteria retains moisture and wicks the offal back up into the machine (appliance), which nearly always retains a significant amount of water.

    The extension pipe/hose/or lint-sock into the laundry tub from the gooseneck or J hose extension discharge is a health problem/plumbing code violation cross contamination from the building sewer/stack/drainage/laundry tub to the washing machine. They are neither necessary nor allowed.

    If the home is on septic there are plumbing code (and not health hazard) methods of screening out synthetic lint from washing machine discharge...this is not one of them.

    The tub will be at a significant level with the first rinse discharge and as the machine is spinning out with open valves affording short bursts of additional rinse water during that spin-out the contamination pathway is completed even with fast closing, which below the height of the laundry tub faucet. When as the majority of basement laundry connections are below the WH tank connections and in your area not likely to have vac breaker to WH inlet either. These neted laundry "socks" are a health hazard.

    The reality is likely the device will be removed, then later replaced and the colonized machine will be left behind.

    P.S. that spring clamp belongs on the discharge hose end of the gooseneck (J) connection to keep IT on the discharge hose under pressure of the pumped discharge; not on the discharge (tub side) end.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-12-2012 at 08:46 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    NO cross connect.

    When "functional" is not good enough, Call Final Analysis Home Inspections, Virginia Beach VA

  14. #14
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The tub will be at a significant level with the first rinse discharge and as the machine is spinning out with open valves affording short bursts of additional rinse water during that spin-out the contamination pathway is completed even with fast closing, which below the height of the laundry tub faucet. When as the majority of basement laundry connections are below the WH tank connections and in your area not likely to have vac breaker to WH inlet either. These neted laundry "socks" are a health hazard.
    The valves don't open until the tub is empty and the basket is in the high speed spin cycle.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Another explanation might be a grey water washing machine. My sister had a Kenmore (I believe) about 20 years ago that would pump the water into a laundry sink just like the one pictured (with the plug in) and pump it back out for another load. The length of the hose (going almost to the bottom of the sink) is what reminded me.
    I think they disappeared with the advent of the high efficiency front load washers. A quick google search did not reveal any machines like this, but I'm also not sure that grey water is the right term.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Christoffersen View Post
    Another explanation might be a grey water washing machine. My sister had a Kenmore (I believe) about 20 years ago that would pump the water into a laundry sink just like the one pictured (with the plug in) and pump it back out for another load. The length of the hose (going almost to the bottom of the sink) is what reminded me.
    I think they disappeared with the advent of the high efficiency front load washers. A quick google search did not reveal any machines like this, but I'm also not sure that grey water is the right term.
    My parents had one about 45 years ago. Dad made the gray water tub out of plywood and lined it with fiberglass. It would save the rinse water to be used in the next wash cycle, helped with reducing water load to the drain field.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    There is a natural air break between the water inlets and overflow levels of each fixture and the appliance, and both are independently protected from cross connection.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Just tell them they should install a proper stand pipe, easy to do.

    That way, they can use the sink separately, regardless of what the machine is doing.

    A cross connection could occur if a supply hose was left laying in a sink. That, my friends, is a drain hose. The pump in the machine has a check valve that prevents waste water from ever returning to the machine tub. And if it ever did, by some fluke of circumstances, you would have a wash tub full of wash water.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Thompson View Post
    There is a natural air break between the water inlets and overflow levels of each fixture and the appliance, and both are independently protected from cross connection.
    That's the "air gap" as H.G. provided the definitions, the "air break" is located in the drain line and really has nothing to do with cross contamination of the potable water supply. The only place I have see "air breaks" is in commercial kitchen sinks where there would be a possibility of contaminating the sink or dish washer water.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    thanks all got my answer

    cvf


  21. #21
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    Default Re: CROSS CONNECTION

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    That's the "air gap" as H.G. provided the definitions, the "air break" is located in the drain line and really has nothing to do with cross contamination of the potable water supply. The only place I have see "air breaks" is in commercial kitchen sinks where there would be a possibility of contaminating the sink or dish washer water.
    "air gaps" are specialty devices that maintain natural "air breaks" above the flood rim of a fixture receiving pressure discharge from devices prohibited by plumbing codes to be interconnect with gravity waste systems. "air gap" fittings are commonly used for residential dishwashers to avoid direct pressure connections and forbids back water conditions from contaminating sanitized dishwashers basins and other pressure discharging equipment most often seen piped to open receptors with fixed natural air break above the flood rim of the fixture receiving this discharge.


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