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  1. #1
    RobertSmith's Avatar
    RobertSmith Guest

    Default Copper Gas Line -

    Last edited by RobertSmith; 12-20-2007 at 03:19 PM.
    Elite MGA Home Inspector E&O Insurance

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    4,112

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    Irc 2003 G2414.5.2
    ... copper and brass tubing shall not be used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas.

    Local gas supplier should be able to tell you the H Sulfide content.

    It is understood that Natural Gas can't use copper but Propane can around my area.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Rockwall Texas
    Posts
    4,517

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    It is wrong because of the corrosion that will occur inside the line from the ingredient the gas providers here in Texas put in to make the gas smell or have an odor.

    Plus the fact that if TREC calls you out on it, I hear its about a 250. fine and you get your name flashed all over that newsletter they publish making you look incompetant.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    The code says...

    "G2414.5.2 (403.5.2) Copper tubing. Copper tubing shall comply with standard Type K or L of ASTM B 88 or ASTM B 280.

    Copper and brass tubing shall not be used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas (0.7 milligrams per 100 liters)."

    TREC SoP says...

    "(7) report as in need of repair deficiencies in materials used for the gas branch line and the connection to the appliance, the absence of a gas shut-off valve, or a valve that is not properly located, is inaccessible, or leaks;"

    Copper is not specifically mentioned in the TREC SoP but if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas then copper would not be acceptable.
    I know that many AHJs just prohibit the use of copper or brass regardless of the quality of the gas from the local utility provider you would need to make a few phone calls to the AHJs you work in to find out their particular stance.

    I do know of a Texas inspector who was questioned by TREC because he did not write up a copper gas connector on a water heater. At that time TREC enforcement was under the impression that the inspector should have written the issue up as in need of repair.

    TREC enforcement contacted me for an opinion and I basically provided the same information as above the them and suggested that they contact the gas supplier about the average hydrogen sulfide content to determine if the inspector was actually in error and to check with the local AHJ if one is involved. Unfortunately, I do not know how that inquiry was actually resolved in the end.

    For me the decision to write it up or not is easy because copper and bare brass is not permitted by so many of the AHJs around here. It is possible though that there are some places in Texas where the gas meets the code stipulated criteria and the AHJ permits the use of code approved copper or brass materials. Generally speaking its going to be a write-up for the overwhelming majority of us in Texas and I can tell you that TREC enforcement is not up on the nuances of the code that might apply.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    4,112

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    I personally write up copper in a natural gas system, but it is almost always just a short piece used instead of a proper flex line.
    It is a simple fix that needs to be done even if the gas is ok.
    I just use a generic statement and let the plumber worry about the details.
    Replacement is cheaper and easier than researching the specifics. Gas that might be ok this year might not be in the future, not worth the risk.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Near Philly, Pa.
    Posts
    1,633

    Cool Re: Copper Gas Line -

    Aside from those code references and Jim's great point about the quality varying, that tap is not approved for gas use. This thing can leak like hell and is dangerous. Also, the copper should be sleeved in conduit to protect it from curious little boys and weed eaters. It should be sleeved where it goes into the ground and through the foundation.

    I would call this out whether TREC or Shrek says so.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  7. #7
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
    Richard Rushing Guest

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    I have found that several areas in the outskirts of the counties had incoming lines where they used copper with propane (which is o.k.).

    However... fast-forward a decade or two and the building has moved further out of the cities and some of these areas now have gas. Well, low-and-behold, the change-out of materials was never accomplished from propane to natural gas.



    I always get the ole Bubba who will say, "Hell, it's always been dat-a-way... ain't no-way-n hell I'm changin it."

    Rich

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  8. #8
    Bruce Thomas's Avatar
    Bruce Thomas Guest

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    You can use copper in some areas of the country (like PA) as long as it meets the material, connnection and protection requirements.

    Bruce


  9. #9
    Craig Martin's Avatar
    Craig Martin Guest

    Post Re: Copper Gas Line -

    Out here our supply lines to the house are copper - at least the older homes are.

    Craig Martin
    East Dundee, IL


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,829

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    I have been told by several individuals that the gas supply west of the Mississippi river is "dirty" and precautions need to be taken for the gas that is being supplied. East of the Mississippi river and the gas is "clean" and does not have the high sulphur content or moisture content.

    If in doubt go and ask the local gas company.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    I personally just write it up. I write up any copper tubing being used as a gas supply line. I know of an inspector that got questioned by TREC for not writing up a copper gas line on a furnace.
    Tom


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Near Philly, Pa.
    Posts
    1,633

    Cool Re: Copper Gas Line -

    Warren, those saddles are not approved gas fittings listed in either code book. That shutoff is not listed to ANSI Z21.15 and should be replaced. The copper tubing is damaged (kinked at the flare nut), unsleeved, and should be replaced simply due to being unprotected if nothing else. The wall needs to be sealed where the iron pipe enters it and the copper should be sleeved where it enters the wall. Of course, if you cannot determine the gas is sweet enough, then copper is not allowed by any code. See previous code references. BTW, there appears to be pipe dope on that flare fitting, which is a no-no.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    1,222

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    I would bet that the copper lines in both photos do not go under the slab. I'm not sure how they would have gotten them under the slab after construction. They are probably for gas grills or other outdoor fixtures, or to a gas unit somewhere else like in the garage. I wonder whey they used such goofy shut off conections instead of piping in a "T" and putting the shutoff by the fixture where it belonged?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,141

    Default Re: Copper Gas Line -

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik View Post
    The code says...

    "G2414.5.2 (403.5.2) Copper tubing. Copper tubing shall comply with standard Type K or L of ASTM B 88 or ASTM B 280.

    Copper and brass tubing shall not be used if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas (0.7 milligrams per 100 liters)."

    TREC SoP says...

    "(7) report as in need of repair deficiencies in materials used for the gas branch line and the connection to the appliance, the absence of a gas shut-off valve, or a valve that is not properly located, is inaccessible, or leaks;"

    Copper is not specifically mentioned in the TREC SoP but if the gas contains more than an average of 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas then copper would not be acceptable.
    I know that many AHJs just prohibit the use of copper or brass regardless of the quality of the gas from the local utility provider you would need to make a few phone calls to the AHJs you work in to find out their particular stance.

    I do know of a Texas inspector who was questioned by TREC because he did not write up a copper gas connector on a water heater. At that time TREC enforcement was under the impression that the inspector should have written the issue up as in need of repair.

    TREC enforcement contacted me for an opinion and I basically provided the same information as above the them and suggested that they contact the gas supplier about the average hydrogen sulfide content to determine if the inspector was actually in error and to check with the local AHJ if one is involved. Unfortunately, I do not know how that inquiry was actually resolved in the end.

    For me the decision to write it up or not is easy because copper and bare brass is not permitted by so many of the AHJs around here. It is possible though that there are some places in Texas where the gas meets the code stipulated criteria and the AHJ permits the use of code approved copper or brass materials. Generally speaking its going to be a write-up for the overwhelming majority of us in Texas and I can tell you that TREC enforcement is not up on the nuances of the code that might apply.
    Philip, I used a post on another inspection MB being tired & did not expose your name behind the post.
    Sorry if it offended you. I meant no credit.

    NOTE: It did incite a nameless Inspection News member whom openly slandered me saying verbatim, "why do you continue to ripoff InspectionNews website & Phillip Stojanik's reply without giving credit to either?.

    I have never come here with the intent to take something not mine.
    It is the opposite. If it can stop someone from making a mistake, then I think the post was used openly and with the intent the poster desired.

    I am sure Brian Hanigan can see this clearly. If he looks at my log-ins it is self explanatory. I come here on blue moons seeing I have had enough of MB ridicule and arrogance. I just throw it right back.

    Too bad.
    So sad.
    By Roy Cooke..

    That being said, I give any and all full permission to use anything that I post to help others gain insight. Not for financial gain.
    help yourself.

    . The "continue to ripoff InspectionNews website" is way beyond what I can say is logical or factual. I see it as an attempt to demean and slander firstly having no credible evidence.

    As for him and his mistakes on the MB, I just move along but will attempt a debate. It is never accepted. NEVER!.


    I was truly taken back by his demeanor.
    If he has your power of attorney to act on his behalf than I again say I am sorry. But this copywitter thing. Fee source sharing is what I though Brian invented.

    Best regards.
    Robert


    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.

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