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  1. #1
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    Default pex -al -pex gas pipe

    Is the new pex-al pex gas pipe approved for residential installation? I am looking at the GAS FLEX brand in particular. I have a lot of re-pipes here in East Texas and it would make my job considerably easier. The manufacturer says I can use my existing pex insert fittings and press sleeves for outlets and branches. This would be similar to Viega's Fostapex product where you cut away the aluminum piping and use the inner pex for attachments. The website shows SGS AS4176, ANSI/ASTM F1282, and NFPA 54 as approvals. Any body care to weigh in on this?------curious in East Texas.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: pex -al -pex gas pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by gary miller View Post
    Is the new pex-al pex gas pipe approved for residential installation? I am looking at the GAS FLEX brand in particular. I have a lot of re-pipes here in East Texas and it would make my job considerably easier. The manufacturer says I can use my existing pex insert fittings and press sleeves for outlets and branches. This would be similar to Viega's Fostapex product where you cut away the aluminum piping and use the inner pex for attachments. The website shows SGS AS4176, ANSI/ASTM F1282, and NFPA 54 as approvals. Any body care to weigh in on this?------curious in East Texas.
    From the 2009 IRC, which is what I recall Texas was under, or maybe it was the 2006 edition?
    - 403.6 Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings. Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings used to supply fuel gas shall conform to ASTM D 2513. Pipe shall be marked "Gas" and "ASTM D 2513." - - 403.6.1 Anodeless risers. Plastic pipe, tubing and anodeless risers shall comply with the following:
    - - - 1. Factory-assembled anodeless risers shall be recommended by the manufacturer for the gas used and shall be leak tested by the manufacturer in accordance with written procedures.
    - - - 2. Service head adapters and field-assembled anodeless risers incorporating service head adapters shall be recommended by the manufacturer for the gas used, and shall be designed and certified to meet the requirements of Category I of ASTM D 2513, and U.S. Department of Transportation, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 192.281(e). The manufacturer shall provide the user with qualified installation instructions as prescribed by the U.S. Department of Transportation, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 192.283(b).
    - - 403.6.2 LP-gas systems. The use of plastic pipe, tubing and fittings in undiluted liquefied petroleum gas piping systems shall be in accordance with NFPA 58.
    - - 403.6.3 Regulator vent piping. Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings used to connect regulator vents to remote vent terminations shall be PVC conforming to ANSI/UL 651. PVC vent piping shall not be installed indoors.

    The ASTM Standard to which each meets is different.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: pex -al -pex gas pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2009 IRC, which is what I recall Texas was under, or maybe it was the 2006 edition?
    - 403.6 Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings. Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings used to supply fuel gas shall conform to ASTM D 2513. Pipe shall be marked "Gas" and "ASTM D 2513." - - 403.6.1 Anodeless risers. Plastic pipe, tubing and anodeless risers shall comply with the following:
    - - - 1. Factory-assembled anodeless risers shall be recommended by the manufacturer for the gas used and shall be leak tested by the manufacturer in accordance with written procedures.
    - - - 2. Service head adapters and field-assembled anodeless risers incorporating service head adapters shall be recommended by the manufacturer for the gas used, and shall be designed and certified to meet the requirements of Category I of ASTM D 2513, and U.S. Department of Transportation, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 192.281(e). The manufacturer shall provide the user with qualified installation instructions as prescribed by the U.S. Department of Transportation, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Part 192.283(b).
    - - 403.6.2 LP-gas systems. The use of plastic pipe, tubing and fittings in undiluted liquefied petroleum gas piping systems shall be in accordance with NFPA 58.
    - - 403.6.3 Regulator vent piping. Plastic pipe, tubing and fittings used to connect regulator vents to remote vent terminations shall be PVC conforming to ANSI/UL 651. PVC vent piping shall not be installed indoors.

    The ASTM Standard to which each meets is different.
    Thanks Jerry I appreciate the info.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: pex -al -pex gas pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by gary miller View Post
    Is the new pex-al pex gas pipe approved for residential installation? I am looking at the GAS FLEX brand in particular. I have a lot of re-pipes here in East Texas and it would make my job considerably easier. The manufacturer says I can use my existing pex insert fittings and press sleeves for outlets and branches. This would be similar to Viega's Fostapex product where you cut away the aluminum piping and use the inner pex for attachments. The website shows SGS AS4176, ANSI/ASTM F1282, and NFPA 54 as approvals. Any body care to weigh in on this?------curious in East Texas.
    Gary Miller,

    First off this seems to be a DIY question (i.e. how to - and your assumptons are how NOT). This should have been posted in THAT area.

    You (and an earlier responder) obviously aren't to clear what you're discussing about this GAS FLEX Brand is NOT PEX-AL-PEX.

    Product is neither "NEW" nor is it "listed" for the purposes you suggest, however aluminum tubing isn't required to be "approved" but it must be seamless and "comply" with ASTM B210 or B2411. The "marketer" doesn't "say" what you seem to think "they" say, on the web page doesn't claim that NFPA 54 has "approved" THIS product system for this purpose - it only references that NFPA 54 approves (as does the IFGC and the unammended IRC) the limited use of SEAMLESS ALUMINUM TUBING for fuel gas. Neither require listing, just conformance with either B210 or B241.

    You're referencing PE-AL-PE (NOT PEX-AL-PEX despite your topic title), Aluminum tubing and is coated (& lined) with PE NOT PEX.

    ASTM F1282 is for PE-AL- NOT PEX-AL (that would be ASTM F 1281!)-. AS 4176 is not a standard used "here" but addresses both PE-AL & PEX-AL.

    AFAIK it has not been submitted to an approved NTL, as a system nor generally accepted in No. America for this (fuel gas system) purpose by the ICC. AL + soil or exterior = expressly not allowed; AL + "salty ocean or gulf "air" = generally universally unwise. However, NOTE, neither the unammended IFGC, nor the unammended IRC require Aluminum alloy tubing to be LISTED, only that it comply with ASTM B210 or ASTM B241, be coated where indicated and is restricted in where it may be used. I predict liability isues bonding, corrosion nd fire/explosion issues esp. with gulf air, humidity, household environmental issues and lightning i.e. like early CSST problems, but on steriods, and insert fittings faailures.leaks..

    AS 4176, Polyethylene/aluminium and cross-linked polyethylene/aluminium macro-composite pipe systems for pressure applications.

    This is NOT as you assert PEX-AL-PEX ASTM F 1281, Standard specification for crosslinked polyethylene/aluminum/crosslinked polyethylene (PEX-AL-PEX) pressure pipe.

    it is PE-AL-PE ASTM F 1282, Standard specification for polyethylene/aluminum/polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) composite pressure pipe.

    IFGC/IRC:

    403.5 Metallic tubing. Seamless copper, aluminum alloy and steel tubing shall not be used with gases corrosive to such materials.
    403.5.3 Aluminum tubing. Aluminum-alloy tubing shall comply with ASTM B210 or ASTM B241. Aluminum-alloy tubing shall be coated to protect against external corrosion where it is in contct with masonry, plaster or insulation, or is subject to repeated wettings by such liquids as water, detergent or sewage.

    Aluminum-alloy tubing shall not be used in exterior locations or underground.


    403.5.4 Corrugated stainless steel tubing. Corrugated stainless steel tubing shall be listed in accordance with ANSI LC 1/CSA 6.26.

    B210 - Standard Specifiction for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Seamless Tubes,

    ASTM B210 - 12 Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Seamless Tubes
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/B210.htm

    ASTM B241 / B241M - 12 Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Seamless Pipe and Seamless Extruded Tube
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/B241.htm

    ASTM F1282 - 10 Standard Specification for Polyethylene/Aluminum/Polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) Composite Pressure Pipe
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1282.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by ASTM F1282 Scope
    1. Scope
    Quote Originally Posted by ASTM F1282 Scope
    1.1 This specification covers a coextruded polyethylene composite pressure pipe with a welded aluminum tube reinforcement between the inner and outer layers. The inner and outer polyethylene layers are bonded to the aluminum tube by a melt adhesive. Included is a system of nomenclature for the polyethylene-aluminum-polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) pipes, the requirements and test methods for materials, the dimensions and strengths of the component tubes and finished pipe, adhesion tests, and the burst and sustained pressure performance. Also given are the requirements and methods of marking. The pipe covered by this specification is intended for use in potable water distribution systems for residential and commercial applications, water service, underground irrigation systems, and radient panel heating systems, baseboard, snow- and ice-melt systems, and gases that are compatible with composite pipe and fittings.
    1.2 This specification relates only to metal and plastic composite pipes incorporating a welded metallic tube. The welded metallic tube of itself is capable of sustaining internal pressures. Pipes consisting of metallic layers not welded together are outside the scope of this specification.
    1.3 Specifications for connectors for use with pipe meeting the requirements of this specification are given in Annex A1.
    1.4 This specification excludes crosslinked polyethylene-aluminum-crosslinked polyethylene pipes (see Specification
    F1281 <http://myastm.astm.org/SUBSCRIPTION/NewValidateSubscription.cgi?F1281-HTML>).
    1.5 The values stated in SI units are to be regarded as the standard. The values given in parentheses are for information only.
    1.6 The following precautionary caveat pertains only to the test methods portion, Section 9, of this specification: This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.

    ...

    F1974 Specification for Metal Insert Fittings for Polyethylene/Aluminum/Polyethylene and Crosslinked Polyethylene/Aluminum/Crosslinked Polyethylene Composite Pressure Pipe

    gasFlex Flexible Gas Pipe Piping Tubing Tube Indoor Outdoor Instalation

    The gasFlex (R) Flexible Gas Piping System, from Excel, is a complete natural gas and propane piping system internationally certified by SGS www.sgs.com <http://www.sgs.com>to AS4176 and ANSI/ASTM F1282. Used in Europe and Australia for over 10 years, this technology is now revolutionizing the way gas is installed in America.
    gasFlex is a multi-layered composite tubing consisting of an interior aluminum tubing lined with inner and outer layers of UV resistant polyethylene (PE). Aluminum tubing is listed for gas use in NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code.
    .

    IMO, even if your AHJ allows for your project, It would be silly to consider to use as you indicate, and most especially since you don't pick up the distinction of PE vs. PEX.. Gulf/Sea air, general humidity/mooisture & lightning + aluminum tube & fuel gas under pressure are an unwise combination. See no indication fittings or a system tested or compatible with fuel gas. In general, and IME & IMO reliance on aluminum for any system no matter how well coated or protected in humid regions subject to sea/ocean/gulf weather systems, or where any part is in any way associated with terra firma is just plain stupid.


    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 06-27-2013 at 01:06 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Default Re: pex -al -pex gas pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Gary Miller,

    First off this seems to be a DIY question (i.e. how to - and your assumptons are how NOT). This should have been posted in THAT area.

    You (and an earlier responder) obviously aren't to clear what you're discussing about this GAS FLEX Brand is NOT PEX-AL-PEX.

    Product is neither "NEW" nor is it "listed" for the purposes you suggest, however aluminum tubing isn't required to be "approved" but it must be seamless and "comply" with ASTM B210 or B2411. The "marketer" doesn't "say" what you seem to think "they" say, on the web page doesn't claim that NFPA 54 has "approved" THIS product system for this purpose - it only references that NFPA 54 approves (as does the IFGC and the unammended IRC) the limited use of SEAMLESS ALUMINUM TUBING for fuel gas. Neither require listing, just conformance with either B210 or B241.

    You're referencing PE-AL-PE (NOT PEX-AL-PEX despite your topic title), Aluminum tubing and is coated (& lined) with PE NOT PEX.

    ASTM F1282 is for PE-AL- NOT PEX-AL (that would be ASTM F 1281!)-. AS 4176 is not a standard used "here" but addresses both PE-AL & PEX-AL.

    AFAIK it has not been submitted to an approved NTL, as a system nor generally accepted in No. America for this (fuel gas system) purpose by the ICC. AL + soil or exterior = expressly not allowed; AL + "salty ocean or gulf "air" = generally universally unwise. However, NOTE, neither the unammended IFGC, nor the unammended IRC require Aluminum alloy tubing to be LISTED, only that it comply with ASTM B210 or ASTM B241, be coated where indicated and is restricted in where it may be used. I predict liability isues bonding, corrosion nd fire/explosion issues esp. with gulf air, humidity, household environmental issues and lightning i.e. like early CSST problems, but on steriods, and insert fittings faailures.leaks..

    AS 4176, Polyethylene/aluminium and cross-linked polyethylene/aluminium macro-composite pipe systems for pressure applications.

    This is NOT as you assert PEX-AL-PEX ASTM F 1281, Standard specification for crosslinked polyethylene/aluminum/crosslinked polyethylene (PEX-AL-PEX) pressure pipe.

    it is PE-AL-PE ASTM F 1282, Standard specification for polyethylene/aluminum/polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) composite pressure pipe.

    IFGC/IRC:

    B210 - Standard Specifiction for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Seamless Tubes,

    ASTM B210 - 12 Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Seamless Tubes
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/B210.htm

    ASTM B241 / B241M - 12 Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Seamless Pipe and Seamless Extruded Tube
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/B241.htm

    ASTM F1282 - 10 Standard Specification for Polyethylene/Aluminum/Polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) Composite Pressure Pipe
    http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1282.htm


    ...

    F1974 Specification for Metal Insert Fittings for Polyethylene/Aluminum/Polyethylene and Crosslinked Polyethylene/Aluminum/Crosslinked Polyethylene Composite Pressure Pipe

    gasFlex Flexible Gas Pipe Piping Tubing Tube Indoor Outdoor Instalation

    .

    IMO, even if your AHJ allows for your project, It would be silly to consider to use as you indicate, and most especially since you don't pick up the distinction of PE vs. PEX.. Gulf/Sea air, general humidity/mooisture & lightning + aluminum tube & fuel gas under pressure are an unwise combination. See no indication fittings or a system tested or compatible with fuel gas. In general, and IME & IMO reliance on aluminum for any system no matter how well coated or protected in humid regions subject to sea/ocean/gulf weather systems, or where any part is in any way associated with terra firma is just plain stupid.
    Thanks for your input


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