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  1. #1
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    Default Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    I know that it's not a good idea to route water supply pipes in exterior walls. Is there a code that states that it's simply not allowed? This place has some frozen pipes in outside walls. Home has concrete slab foundation, makes it difficult to reroute pipes.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Nope. No code excluding exterior wall installation.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  3. #3

    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    This is one of those regional differences...
    When I built in NJ we would have never run pipes in an outside wall or unheated attic space. I now live in the Carolinas and it is not an issue with reasonable care.

    Jeff Zehnder - Home Inspector, Raleigh, NC
    http://www.jjeffzehnder.com/
    http://carolinahomeinspections.com/

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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    There is not a code against it, however, in most areas those pipes would require protection from freezing with heat tape, insulation or both.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    The Illinois Plumbing Code does cover putting plumbing on an outside wall.

    Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System



    a) Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder View Post
    This is one of those regional differences...
    When I built in NJ we would have never run pipes in an outside wall or unheated attic space. I now live in the Carolinas and it is not an issue with reasonable care.
    I suspect you will find that pipes outside the thermal envelope in NC are required to be protected from freezing, which is more than just reasonable care.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There is not a code against it, however, in most areas those pipes would require protection from freezing with heat tape, insulation or both.
    Hey Jerry, I had to do some research around heat tape recently for a home that had a serious ice damming issue and vaulted ceilings (no attic space). I found there are many heat tape products on the market, and it definitely needs to be installed exactly how the manufacturer recommends. Heat tape is considered a fire hazard in some states and some state gas companies actually highly suggest not to use it, especially in enclosed walls.

    I ran into another product that seemed interesting.. it uses ambient heat and circulation to prevent frozen pipes. It's called RedyTemp. I've been meaning to ask around about this product, but haven't gotten around to it. I just found it while researching heat tape.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    There are many brands of those on the market - don't believe the hype of one being better than the other just because they say they are (they all say they are better than the others ).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    I can tell you heat tape works. My mom's old house in Chicago had freezing issues with the pipes in the attic. My father picked up heat tape wrapped the pipes and plugged it in to a thermal switched block. This way it only ran when the temperature in the attic reached 40 F or lower. This was back in the early 1970's and that house till this day still has the same heat tape running.

    Fast forward to today, they make heat tape in long length rolls. The idea is to wrap the pipes in on loop and make the termination outside the walls. But lets forget about heat tape, lets look at why the pipes freeze in an outside wall.

    First and foremost the wall cavity needs to have the outside wall properly insulated to help prevent the cold from radiating in. Second issue is a draft inside the wall cavity. If cold air is moving across the pipes, they will freeze. The draft will even freeze pipes when the room is at 90F. So the base of the wall and the top of the wall needs the whole cavity filled with insulation to stop the draft from moving. Some people opt to hire an insulation guy that does the blow in insulation and fill the whole wall cavity. Third is the pipes themselves are unprotected. Insulate all the piping including the air chambers (repaired a bunch these last few weeks and they were the only uninsulated part). Finally is heat within the home. I have seen number of times people turn their heat way down thinking of saving energy when they are not home, and they end up spending tens of thousands repairing all the water damage.

    Now some of the issues I posted above also can cause freezing in inside walls. The draft of air through the inside wall cavity will freeze pipes, along with to low of heat. Pipe wrap is more for attic space or crawl spaces where preventing the area from getting to cold is not an option or to costly.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    The international Plumbing Code addresses this issue
    305.4 Freezing.

    Water, soil and waste pipes shall not be installed outside of a building, in attics or crawl spaces, concealed in outside walls, or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures unless adequate provision is made to protect such pipes from freezing by insulation or heat or both. Exterior water supply system piping shall be installed not less than 6 inches (152 mm) below the frost line and not less than 12 inches (305 mm) below grade.
    There are also provisions in most areas that I work, ( those subject to freezing temperatures),that prohibit or regulate installation of Plumbing in unconditioned space.



  11. #11
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Part of the problem on this property was the fact that the home was vacant and heat was set to 55 degrees, outside temperatures have been around 12-15 degrees. The place has an outside faucet routed in the exterior wall of attached garage, simply not a good idea as the garage is unheated space.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    Part of the problem on this property was the fact that the home was vacant and heat was set to 55 degrees, outside temperatures have been around 12-15 degrees. The place has an outside faucet routed in the exterior wall of attached garage, simply not a good idea as the garage is unheated space.
    The sillcock, should be a frost free version. This means when you turn the handle the stem stops the water inside the building envelope. Here is a picture to help explain.

    frostfree sillcock.jpg


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    The sillcock, should be a frost free version. This means when you turn the handle the stem stops the water inside the building envelope. Here is a picture to help explain.

    frostfree sillcock.jpg
    Generally , there is also a requirement for a shutoff in a heated location. A frost free sillcock will not work properly unless the inside portion is in a heated space.
    Also , It is my understanding that heat tape does not meet the IPC requirement for "heat".


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Generally , there is also a requirement for a shutoff in a heated location. A frost free sillcock will not work properly unless the inside portion is in a heated space.
    Also , It is my understanding that heat tape does not meet the IPC requirement for "heat".
    All frostfree sillcock's I install has the shut off part on the inside of the home's heating envelope. As long as it is installed properly ( long enough to get inside, and pitched to drain off) and the owners disconnect the hose when not in use, it will never freeze up.

    As for heat tape, if you read my first post in Illinois it does meet the code.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    All frostfree sillcock's I install has the shut off part on the inside of the home's heating envelope. As long as it is installed properly ( long enough to get inside, and pitched to drain off) and the owners disconnect the hose when not in use, it will never freeze up.

    As for heat tape, if you read my first post in Illinois it does meet the code.
    Ron - The situation in Illinois is interesting. Some jurisdictions have adopted the International Plumbing Code ( IPC) and some have not. The point is that heat tape does not qualify as heat in the IPC .


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    I warned many on here that live in different states that my posts pertain to the Illinois Plumbing Code for the fact I do not know what they other states follow.

    As for other jurisdictions through out the state of Illinois they all have to follow the Illinois plumbing code as a minimum code, they can not do anything less than what is in the Illinois Plumbing Code, but they can go above and beyond it.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Some jurisdictions have adopted the International Plumbing Code ( IPC) and some have not. The point is that heat tape does not qualify as heat in the IPC .
    Jim,

    You have me stumped with "The point is that heat tape does not qualify as heat in the IPC" as the IPC does not say anything about heat tape not qualifying as heat.
    - From the 2012 IPC (bold and underlining are mine)
    - - 305.4 Freezing.
    - - - Water, soil and waste pipes shall not be installed outside of a building, in attics or crawl spaces, concealed in outside walls, or in any other place subjected to freezing temperatures unless adequate provision is made to protect such pipes from freezing by insulation or heat or both. Exterior water supply system piping shall be installed not less than 6 inches (152 mm) below the frost line and not less than 12 inches (305 mm) below grade.
    - - - - 305.4.1 Sewer depth.
    - - - - - Building sewers that connect to private sewage disposal systems shall be installed not less than [NUMBER] inches (mm) below finished grade at the point of septic tank connection. Building sewers shall be installed not less than [NUMBER] inches (mm) below grade.

    Where have you seen it stated that heat tape is not considered heat by the IPC?

    I have apparently been skipping over that part?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    You have me stumped with "The point is that heat tape does not qualify as heat in the IPC" as the IPC does not say anything about heat tape not qualifying as heat.

    I have apparently been skipping over that part?

    The IPC also does not say anything about Cotton Candy not qualifying as heat. I am sure that you can figure it out.

    Installing water water piping in exterior walls is not a good building practice . Adding heat tape may be a solution in some existing conditions but is not a good solution for new installations. Heat tape can fail with devastating consequences. The codes in many locations prohibit water piping installation in unconditioned spaces.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    [QUOTE=Jim Abram;237689]The IPC also does not say anything about Cotton Candy not qualifying as heat. I am sure that you can figure it out.[quote]

    So you are comparing the heating characteristics of Cotton Candy to that of heat tape?

    Strange for sure, but I guess there must be something to it or you wouldn't have wasted your time posting it.

    Installing water water piping in exterior walls is not a good building practice . Adding heat tape may be a solution in some existing conditions but is not a good solution for new installations. Heat tape can fail with devastating consequences. The codes in many locations prohibit water piping installation in unconditioned spaces.
    I'm not talking about good practices which are above and beyond code, that discussion would be endless.

    We're talking about what is REQUIRED, not what is ALLOWED.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    "We're talking about what is REQUIRED, not what is ALLOWED."

    The problem with the IPC as written ,"unless adequate provision is made to protect such pipes from freezing " is that there is no way to ascertain that "adequate provision" was made until there is a system failure. How can an Inspector inspecting new construction in Minnesota in July determine if "adequate provision" has been made to protect water pipes in an unconditioned area from freezing? Any water piping installed in an unconditioned space is vulnerable to freezing. It is my position that any water piping in an unconditioned space does not meet that provision of the Code unless the installer can prove that "adequate provision" has been made.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    "We're talking about what is REQUIRED, not what is ALLOWED."

    The problem with the IPC as written ,"unless adequate provision is made to protect such pipes from freezing " is that there is no way to ascertain that "adequate provision" was made until there is a system failure.
    Actually, there is a way to ascertain what is "INadequate provision" to protect against freezing.

    How can an Inspector inspecting new construction in Minnesota in July determine if "adequate provision" has been made to protect water pipes in an unconditioned area from freezing? Any water piping installed in an unconditioned space is vulnerable to freezing. It is my position that any water piping in an unconditioned space does not meet that provision of the Code unless the installer can prove that "adequate provision" has been made.
    When NO provision is made, then "adequate" provision is not made.

    The rest of the story ... as Paul Harvey used to say ... is that is the pipes are insulated OR heat tape is used, then the inspector would only have "experience" from having lived in that area to know whether or not insulation AND heat tape should be installed to provide that "adequate" protection.

    Then there is this: if the contractor/builder decides to insulate the pipes and the pipes freeze, and that contractor/builder is from that area and knows that pipes freeze there and that the pipes should be protected with both insulation and heat tape, then when there is a failure the courts will have no problem (should have no problem) finding that the contractor/building "should have known" that "adequate" protection meant both insulation and heat tape.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Jerry - Being from Florida , you may have a different perspective on this issue but, in my opinion heat tape is only a temporary solution to a permanent condition. Heat tape also has a limited life and failures of heat tape have caused thousands of fires. By adding heat tape, a potential hazard has also been created.

    The issues with water piping in unconditioned areas and heat tape failures can easily be avoided by properly installing water piping. Anyone who installs water piping in unconditioned areas or who installs heat tape has created a huge liability. This is a time bomb.
    There are also the issue of whether it is safe or Code compliant to install heat tape in an enclosed location.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    . Heat tape also has a limited life and failures of heat tape have caused thousands of fires. By adding heat tape, a potential hazard has also been created.
    According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), some 3,300 residential fires involving heat tapes or cables occur each year.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - Being from Florida , you may have a different perspective on this issue but, in my opinion heat tape is only a temporary solution to a permanent condition. Heat tape also has a limited life and failures of heat tape have caused thousands of fires. By adding heat tape, a potential hazard has also been created.

    The issues with water piping in unconditioned areas and heat tape failures can easily be avoided by properly installing water piping. Anyone who installs water piping in unconditioned areas or who installs heat tape has created a huge liability. This is a time bomb.
    Jim,

    You keep missing the point - no one is disagreeing that the above is BETTER than code.

    But the discussion is about what is REQUIRED, not what is BETTER than required.

    There are also the issue of whether it is safe or Code compliant to install heat tape in an enclosed location.
    Right, there is no issue as long as you recognize that CODE allows for heat tape to be used as one option, the CODE also allows insulation to be used. NEITHER IS SAYING THAT ONE WILL NOT HAVE FREEZE DAMAGE, only that such efforts are THE MINIMUM efforts REQUIRED by the code.

    You seem to keep missing, or maybe simply ignoring, that CODE is MINIMUM and that nothing in the code prevents one from doing better, the code simply DOES NOT REQUIRE "doing better".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Right, there is no issue as long as you recognize that CODE allows for heat tape to be used as one option, the CODE also allows insulation to be used. NEITHER IS SAYING THAT ONE WILL NOT HAVE FREEZE DAMAGE, only that such efforts are THE MINIMUM efforts REQUIRED by the code.

    Jerry - This discussion is about water piping in exterior walls .The CODE does not allow heat tape to be installed in concealed locations. The generic Manufacturers Specifications are posted below .In order to comply with Code , you must comply with Manufacturers Specifications

    "CAUTION:
    1. Heating cables must be installed in compliance with the
    national electric code (NEC) in addition to state, provincial and
    local codes. Check with your local inspector for specific code
    requirements (or regulations or standards) in your area.
    2.Save these instructions and transfer them to future owner(s).
    3. Never install on pipes that could potentially exceed 150 F,
    (65 C).
    4. Not for use with an extension cord.
    5. Not for use with indoor pipes. Cable should not run through the
    building walls, ceilings or floors.
    6. For safety, King recommends that all heating cables are placed
    on a Ground Fault Equipment Protection (GFEP) circuit.
    Consult your local electrical inspector to determine the specific
    requirements in your area.
    7. Do not cut or alter the length of the cable in any way. Any
    alteration may result in electrical shock or fire.
    8.Post warning labels supplied with the cable at the power supply
    and along the pipe on the outside of the insulation.
    9. Do not bend the cable to less than a 1/2 radius.
    10.Do not Install cable on shingle roofs in freezing temperatures;
    as this may cause damage to the shingles.
    11.Cables are intended for freeze protection of water pipes only.
    Not intended for use with other liquids or hazardous materials.
    12. For installation in accessible areas only. "
    Second - The IPC makes no mention of heat tape. It only mentions heat . If you research what "heat" is defined as in the IBC,you will find that heat tape does not qualify.
    Third - " Adequate provision" by my reading means that the installation will properly prevent freezing.
    You have three possible options with heat tape on concealed water piping.
    1. It will work to prevent freezing.
    2. It will not work to prevent freezing due to a malfunction or a GFCI or other safety tripping.
    3. It will start a fire .
    66% chance of failure . I do not like those odds.

    I have seen far too many failures to even consider heat tape as a viable option in new construction.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    First, addressing this -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    The IPC makes no mention of heat tape. It only mentions heat . If you research what "heat" is defined as in the IBC,you will find that heat tape does not qualify.
    I've search both the IBC (which is not applicable to the discussion regarding houses, but I looked anyway) and the IRC (which is applicable to houses) and I could not find a definition of "heat" in either code.

    If you are referring to the section regarding heating the habitable space, then, using your logic, water heaters do not heat water either - so I am not sure what you are trying to say about heat tape not providing heat ... you need to provide more information on that.

    Third - " Adequate provision" by my reading means that the installation will properly prevent freezing.
    Correct, and the only true test is to take the exterior air temperature down to well below freezing forever and see if it keeps the pipes from freezing. You know that is not a practical test just like I know it.

    You have three possible options with heat tape on concealed water piping.
    1. It will work to prevent freezing.
    2. It will not work to prevent freezing due to a malfunction or a GFCI or other safety tripping.
    3. It will start a fire .
    66% chance of failure . I do not like those odds.
    You are trying to add your wants into what the code calls for - protection from freezing. If you want to apply your wants to things, then there would be no electrical systems in houses (they cause fires) and there would be no fuel burning devices in houses (they cause fires) ... you are way out in left field with your wants there.

    I have seen far too many failures to even consider heat tape as a viable option in new construction.
    Again, your wants and opinions, but not code.

    Now here, you are finally providing some information you could have provided many posts ago to help resolve this ... finally you are providing something other than your wants and opinions ... thank you for finally providing something useful.

    The generic Manufacturers Specifications are posted below .In order to comply with Code , you must comply with Manufacturers Specifications

    "CAUTION:
    .
    5. Not for use with indoor pipes. Cable should not run through the
    building walls, ceilings or floors.
    .
    12. For installation in accessible areas only. "
    Finally, some useful information.

    Jim, do you realize how much effort it took to get you beyond your wants and opinions and actually provide something useful?

    All your other posts were about your wants and opinions, not until now did you finally provide what was needed ... oh, wait, you provided "code" and you ignore code because you want better ... well, I will say that you finally came through.

    Next time provide supporting documentation sooner instead of all your wants and opinions, sure would make threads a lot shorter and get to the needed information sooner.

    That said, thank you for the good information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Actually, there are several useful nuggets in the thread: the CPSC fire incidence numbers, the ISPC prohibition and the IPC prohibition were all new to me.

    I would add that though supply plumbing is seen as the major problem, cast iron DWV plumbing - even vertical plumbing - is also subject to freeze damage.

    Several times in the water intrusion end of my business I've discovered slow leaks from hairline cracks in stacks installed in exterior walls - likely at some point there had been a stoppage which allowed standing water to freeze in a stack, causing an entire section to crack end-to-end.

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-13-2014 at 08:03 AM.
    Michael Thomas
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    http://paragoninspects.com

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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    I would add that though supply plumbing is seen as the major problem, cast iron DWV plumbing - even vertical plumbing - is also subject to freeze damage.
    That is why the ICC codes address all plumbing piping, DWV is also specifically named, in the freeze protection requirements.

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    First, addressing this -



    I've search both the IBC (which is not applicable to the discussion regarding houses, but I looked anyway) and the IRC (which is applicable to houses) and I could not find a definition of "heat" in either code.

    If you are referring to the section regarding heating the habitable space, then, using your logic, water heaters do not heat water either - so I am not sure what you are trying to say about heat tape not providing heat ... you need to provide more information on that.



    Correct, and the only true test is to take the exterior air temperature down to well below freezing forever and see if it keeps the pipes from freezing. You know that is not a practical test just like I know it.



    You are trying to add your wants into what the code calls for - protection from freezing. If you want to apply your wants to things, then there would be no electrical systems in houses (they cause fires) and there would be no fuel burning devices in houses (they cause fires) ... you are way out in left field with your wants there.



    Again, your wants and opinions, but not code.

    Now here, you are finally providing some information you could have provided many posts ago to help resolve this ... finally you are providing something other than your wants and opinions ... thank you for finally providing something useful.



    Finally, some useful information.

    Jim, do you realize how much effort it took to get you beyond your wants and opinions and actually provide something useful?

    All your other posts were about your wants and opinions, not until now did you finally provide what was needed ... oh, wait, you provided "code" and you ignore code because you want better ... well, I will say that you finally came through.

    Next time provide supporting documentation sooner instead of all your wants and opinions, sure would make threads a lot shorter and get to the needed information sooner.

    That said, thank you for the good information.
    Jerry - If you were not so firmly entrenched with incorrect information and conventional wisdom . It would not have taken so long to dig you out. You should really check on the accuracy of the information you post, before you post it.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    ~snip~ 2. It will not work to prevent freezing due to a malfunction or a GFCI or other safety tripping.
    3. It will start a fire .
    66% chance of failure . I do not like those odds.

    I have seen far too many failures to even consider heat tape as a viable option in new construction.
    A furnace malfunction can cause indoor plumbing to freeze so saying heat tape is inferior due to a malfunction of GFCI tripping is invalid. And yes I have been in homes with tens of thousands dollars of water damage due to the furnace, thermostats, and or power failures, while everyone was at work and school.

    Chance it can start a fire, I seen electric, and gas water heaters start fires, I seen furnaces start fires, I even seen sump and ejector pumps start a fire. Heck in my mothers home a faulty light switch started a small fire.

    Also I hope you know there are different grades of heat tape. You have the prepackaged preset length most people can buy to help prevent freezing (I see this a lot in outdoor meter vaults) Then there is the professional grade heat tape installed by professionals. For example Easy Heat makes a product that a contactor purchases and he cuts it to the proper length needed for the install. This manufacture also makes preassembled units that are not to be modified, I read both install instructions, and neither say do not install in walls, attic spaces.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    A furnace malfunction can cause indoor plumbing to freeze so saying heat tape is inferior due to a malfunction of GFCI tripping is invalid. And yes I have been in homes with tens of thousands dollars of water damage due to the furnace, thermostats, and or power failures, while everyone was at work and school.

    Chance it can start a fire, I seen electric, and gas water heaters start fires, I seen furnaces start fires, I even seen sump and ejector pumps start a fire. Heck in my mothers home a faulty light switch started a small fire.

    Also I hope you know there are different grades of heat tape. You have the prepackaged preset length most people can buy to help prevent freezing (I see this a lot in outdoor meter vaults) Then there is the professional grade heat tape installed by professionals. For example Easy Heat makes a product that a contactor purchases and he cuts it to the proper length needed for the install. This manufacture also makes preassembled units that are not to be modified, I read both install instructions, and neither say do not install in walls, attic spaces.
    Ron - Thanks for the follow up but, you should really take a logic course.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Oh I should of added that the commercial heat tapes I am referring too, is self regulating. This allows for the heat tape to overlap itself unlike the products one gets from the big orange or blue box stores. So self regulating means it will maintain its temperature and not over heat.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ron - Thanks for the follow up but, you should really take a logic course.
    I actually went back to school working on my Electronics Engineering Degree. I guess the thousands of places I have been in that have heat tape/cable installed by your logic should of been burnt down by now.

    As I mentioned there is different grade and quality of heat tape/cable. Each has its own restrictions for how it is installed.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    I actually went back to school working on my Electronics Engineering Degree. I guess the thousands of places I have been in that have heat tape/cable installed by your logic should of been burnt down by now.

    As I mentioned there is different grade and quality of heat tape/cable. Each has its own restrictions for how it is installed.

    Ron - What you missed here is the UL Compliance and CPSC guidelines for these products. See UL 2049. These products are not for concealed locations.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Jim, what you are missing is there is product available that have US and VDE ratings for concealed spaces. There is different quality of heating tape/cable, the buyer will get what they are paying for. The product I referred to costs at least 5 times more per foot than the hardware store quality heating tape.

    Heat tape/cable bought from hardware stores may have a thermostat to turn the tape on and off. It does not self regulate the temperature it is putting out, thus can overheat and cause issues, which is why it is only rated for exposed pipe use. Also this brand the manufactures require the whole length of the heat tape/cable is inspected yearly for drying out and cracks in the protective cover.

    Commercial grade heat tape/cable can come as simple as having a thermostat to turn the it on and off, or can have a control unit to monitor the heating situation. These tapes are available in self-regulating, which means as the heat increases, the resistance increases which lowers the current flow, lowered current flow means lowered heat output. Then as the heat decreases the resistance decreases, increases the current flow which increases the heat output. This product they recommend insulation the pipe and heat tape/cable, and in there instructions/recommendations they show fiberglass insulation wrapped in the plastic or cloth outer shell. This type of insulation does not come open without destroying it. So with this recommendation by the manufacture, there is no stipulation to inspect the heat tape/cable yearly.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Here is a PDF file of Chromalox, a manufacture of a self regulating heat tape/cable. It is about them obtaining the UL approval to use their product on fire protection systems. Guess what, the fire protection systems I seen heat tape/cable installed on is in ceilings, attic spaces, and inside walls.

    http://www.chromalox.com/content/new...sted-cable.pdf


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Ron - I am not aware of any heat tape that has UL or CPSC approval for being installed in concealed spaces.
    The Easy Heat that you submitted earlier is NOT approved for installation in concealed spaces.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ron - I am not aware of any heat tape that has UL or CPSC approval for being installed in concealed spaces.
    The Easy Heat that you submitted earlier is NOT approved for installation in concealed spaces.
    ......earlier, you referenced "generic" manufacturers installation instructions. What's that mean? By their very nature, a manufacturers instruction must be specific to their product in order to have validity......Greg


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post
    ......earlier, you referenced "generic" manufacturers installation instructions. What's that mean? ....Greg
    It means that these are the instructions that are commonly found on heat tape. They are all very nearly the same.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - If you were not so firmly entrenched with incorrect information and conventional wisdom . It would not have taken so long to dig you out. You should really check on the accuracy of the information you post, before you post it.
    Jim,

    The accuracy of the information I posted was correct as the code does not prohibit the heat tape being used for freeze protection of the piping.

    The ADDITIONAL information you posted from the manufacturer in limiting the LOCATION where they prohibit their heat tape to be installed is the limiting factor

    As with all itmes, heat tape is required to be installed in accordance with its listing and labeling per 110.3 (B) of the NEC.

    Once the manufacturer's instructions were provided showing the location limitations, the use of heat tape in the walls was shown as not being allowed - HOWEVER, that does not prohibit heat tape from being used as one method of protection from freezing in other locations.

    You need to read what is posted by all, yourself included, and not jump to conclusions thinking your statements are redeemed in full - only part of those statements proved to be correct, with the rest incorrect.

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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    It means that these are the instructions that are commonly found on heat tape. They are all very nearly the same.
    .....nearly the same is not the same. If you are going to justify(or reject) any installation by citing the manufacturer's installation instructions, you'll need to be specific in order to be credible......Greg


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post
    .....nearly the same is not the same. If you are going to justify(or reject) any installation by citing the manufacturer's installation instructions, you'll need to be specific in order to be credible......Greg

    We are not discussing any specific installation .
    How specific do you want to be ? How about -"Heat tape is not approved by UL or CPSC for installation in concealed locations. See - UL standard 2049 "


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    We are not discussing any specific installation .
    How specific do you want to be ? How about -"Heat tape is not approved by UL or CPSC for installation in concealed locations. See - UL standard 2049 "
    ...........in and of themselves, UL and CPSC are not code standards/requirements. The heat trace that Ron mentioned above has no manufacturer's prohibition against interior use.......Greg


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post
    ...........in and of themselves, UL and CPSC are not code standards/requirements. The heat trace that Ron mentioned above has no manufacturer's prohibition against interior use.......Greg
    Greg - If you read the IMC you will find -
    " 102.8 Referenced codes and standards.
    The codes and standards referenced herein shall be those that are listed in Chapter 15 and such codes and standards shall be considered as part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.8.1 and 102.8.2. "

    UL standards is one of these standards. The heat tape must be approved for use in concealed locations by UL in order to comply with Code. UL supercedes manufacturers instructions. There are many products for sale that do not have the appropriate UL approval.
    If I observe a component that is being utilized in an appropriate or hazardous manner or in a manner which is not approved by UL ,I will make an issue with that use.
    If UL indicates that these components should not be used in some applications, I will make an issue with that use.



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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ron - I am not aware of any heat tape that has UL or CPSC approval for being installed in concealed spaces.
    The Easy Heat that you submitted earlier is NOT approved for installation in concealed spaces.
    Again there is different types of heat tape/cable made by the manufacture. EasyHeat is made by Emerson, and they have a self regulating bulk heat tape that is UL listed as can be seen in this PDF http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...csheet_web.pdf

    They also make EasyHeat that is available in hardware stores that is preset and not self regulating. These heat tapes do not meet the UL standards.

    I would like to mention before I became a plumber, I worked in electronics designing test fixtures for advanced power supplies used in medical equipment and very high end test equipment. One of the job details I had to do there was to work with UL and VDE testing. Many of times I was at UL testing facilities working with them on getting approvals for the power supplies. I know what their tests are and the requirements the products need to meet to get the UL approval.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Greg - If you read the IMC you will find -
    " 102.8 Referenced codes and standards.
    The codes and standards referenced herein shall be those that are listed in Chapter 15 and such codes and standards shall be considered as part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.8.1 and 102.8.2. "

    UL standards is one of these standards. The heat tape must be approved for use in concealed locations by UL in order to comply with Code. UL supercedes manufacturers instructions. There are many products for sale that do not have the appropriate UL approval.
    If I observe a component that is being utilized in an appropriate or hazardous manner or in a manner which is not approved by UL ,I will make an issue with that use.
    If UL indicates that these components should not be used in some applications, I will make an issue with that use.
    Jim,

    I've been standing here watching you continue trying to defend to others what you keep saying - however - it sounds to me like you pick and choose things from the codes and standards you want to apply without see if they are even applicable.

    In your post above you state it as though, because a standard is a UL or other standard, that it is therefore "code by reference" ... which it would be - did you notice the key word there: "would" ...

    Here is the key to what you are missing, okay, here is one key of at least two you are missing:
    - You said: " 102.8 Referenced codes and standards.
    The codes and standards referenced herein shall be those that are listed in Chapter 15 and such codes and standards shall be considered as part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections 102.8.1 and 102.8.2.
    "
    The 2012 IMC says this: (The following is a list of UL standards as listed in Chatper 15 - Referenced Standards - the UL standards are listed in numerical order)
    UL Standard (referenced in) code section number
    172008 (referenced in) 803.6
    10301 (referenced in) 805.2
    12708 (referenced in) 805.3, 903.1, 903.3
    17404 (referenced in) 1002.1
    18003 (referenced in) 1306.4
    18105 (referenced in) 512.2, 603.5, 603.6.1, 603.6.2, 604.13
    181A05 (referenced in) 603.9
    181B05 (referenced in) 603.9
    2072009 (referenced in) 1101.2
    2632003 (referenced in) 607.5.2, 607.5.5, 607.6.1
    2682009 (referenced in) 606.1
    268A2008 (referenced in) 606.1
    3432008 (referenced in) 1302.7
    37806 (referenced in) 804.3, 804.3.8
    3912006 (referenced in) 918.1
    41204 (referenced in) 1101.2
    47106 (referenced in) 1101.2
    49905 (referenced in) 912.1, 923.1
    50899 (referenced in) 307.2.3
    53697 (referenced in) 1302.8
    55506 (referenced in) 607.3
    555C06 (referenced in) 607.3.1
    555S99 (referenced in) 607.3.1
    5862009 (referenced in) 605.2
    64195 (referenced in) 802.1
    71095 (referenced in) 507.1
    710B04 (referenced in) 507.1
    7232008 (referenced in) 510.8, 602.2.1, 602.2.1.5, 604.3, 1204.1
    72695 (referenced in) 916.1, 1004.1
    72706 (referenced in) 918.1
    72903 (referenced in) 910.1
    73003 (referenced in) 909.1
    73195 (referenced in) 920.1
    73295 (referenced in) 1002.1
    7372007 (referenced in) 905.1
    7622010 (referenced in) 506.5.1
    79106 (referenced in) 907.1
    83404 (referenced in) 1004.1
    84207 (referenced in) 1307.1
    85805 (referenced in) 917.1
    86700 (referenced in) 605.2
    87509 (referenced in) 914.2
    89693 (referenced in) 917.1, 922.1
    90004 (referenced in) 605.2
    9232008 (referenced in) 914.2
    90794 (referenced in) 901.4
    95901 (referenced in) 805.5
    104600 (referenced in) 507.11
    124005 (referenced in) 913.1
    126101 (referenced in) 916.1
    145304 (referenced in) 1002.1
    147903 (referenced in) 506.3.10.2, 506.3.10.3
    14822010 (referenced in) 905.1
    161809 (referenced in) 308.5, 903.2, 905.3
    17772007 (referenced in) 801.16.1, 801.18.4
    18122009 (referenced in) 927.1
    18152009 (referenced in) 927.2
    182004 (referenced in) 602.2.1.3
    188704 (referenced in) 602.2.1.2
    197805 (referenced in) 506.3.2
    199505 (referenced in) 911.1, 918.1, 918.3, 1101.2
    199604 (referenced in) 911.1
    20242008 (referenced in) 602.2.1.1
    20432008 (referenced in) 602.2.1.4.2
    215897 (referenced in) 504.6.3, 913.1
    2158A2006 (referenced in) 504.6.3
    216201 (referenced in) 917.1
    220098 (referenced in) 915.1
    222101 (referenced in) 506.3.10.3
    251802 (referenced in) 603.17
    252309 (referenced in) 1002.1, 1004.1

    Did you happen to catch one of the standards NOT referenced in the IMC?

    Now for the second key thing you are missing (not that it matters based on the above):
    - You keep referencing the IMC and then talking about heat tape in houses ... have you caught where this is going yet?

    The IMC ... IS NOT applicable to houses.

    The IRC is applicable to houses, so I went to Chapter 44 - Referenced Standards and ... can you guess what is the number of one of the UL standards which is NOT referenced in that list?

    Clue: It is the same UL standard NOT listed in the IMC, and is also the same UL standard you keep referring to.

    Of course, those are from the 2012 IMC and IRC so I guess they could be out of date ...

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 02-14-2014 at 06:55 PM. Reason: speelin' - "there" should have been "where"
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Jerry - You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It seems that you have lost sight of the fact that there is a difference between right and wrong. Defend the Code all you want but, the Code is not infallible.
    Part of a Home Inspection is recognizing potential issues. Since there are a large number of freezing water pipes due to piping installed in exterior walls and a large number of fires related to heat tape ,these are potential issues. Installing water piping in exterior walls or unheated locations is not a good practice. The simple solution of adding heat tape may not be a correct solution . Whether or not you are correct as to if it is Code compliant or not, I think you will have a hard time convincing a jury that the family who children died because of a heat tape caused fire have no claim because it was Code Compliant .You seem to have lost sight of what is right and wrong.
    I will continue to see this as an issue and I would hope that others would also recognize this as an issue.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. It seems that you have lost sight of the fact that there is a difference between right and wrong. Defend the Code all you want but, the Code is not infallible.
    Jim,

    YOU are the one who keeps changing your arguments, first it is that YOU consider it not safe, then YOU come up with some UL standard and pin YOUR argument on that and that when the codes refer to a standard the standard becomes code - then when it is pointed out that the codes DO NOT refer to your standard of choice ... YOU go back to square one arguing that if YOU don't like it is therefore not safe, good, or allowed.

    Trying to keep track of which argument you are now using reminds me of when we used to have debates with Watson ... whenever something he said was shown as not being correct he would come back with something else, and when that failed he would resort to using colors and very large text - he was quite "colorful".

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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    YOU go back to square one arguing that if YOU don't like it is therefore not safe, good, or allowed.
    Jerry -I think that the point is that UL and CPSC do not approve installation of heat tapes in concealed locations and some Manufacturers have instructions that caution the use in concealed locations. This is not my opinion.
    It has been documented by the NFPA that this condition has caused fires. In my opinion it really does not matter if it is Code compliant. If a potential hazard has been documented it should be raised as an issue.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry -I think that the point is that UL and CPSC do not approve installation of heat tapes in concealed locations and some Manufacturers have instructions that caution the use in concealed locations. This is not my opinion.
    It has been documented by the NFPA that this condition has caused fires. In my opinion it really does not matter if it is Code compliant. If a potential hazard has been documented it should be raised as an issue.
    The point is, based on what has been presented in this thread, there are types which are not restricted from those locations.

    Another point is that you said they are prohibited from being installed in those locations and the document you referred to as being your back up for code not allowing is not even referenced by the code and is therefore not code and therefore there is no code prohibition against it - that you have provided so far.

    The exception being that the NEC does not "reference standards" but does required listed and labeled equipment to be installed in accordance with its listing and labeling - I gave you that one, but then you continued on and dug yourself into a hole, we handed you a shovel to grab on and we would help pull you out, instead you grabbed the shovel and dug your hole deeper.

    If it is against the listing and labeling then the NEC applies - you should have stopped there.

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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The point is, based on what has been presented in this thread, there are types which are not restricted from those locations.

    Jerry - I think we went well beyond what is necessary and we should agree to disagree.

    In the process of conducting the inspection on a building , if I observe water piping in unconditioned spaces or heat tape in concealed locations I will make an issue of it.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - I think we went well beyond what is necessary and we should agree to disagree.
    There is no reason to agree to disagree with someone who says they can document what they say and then fails to provide that documentation, and continues to stick to their 'if I say it is bad, then it is bad' mentality regardless of the evidence shown to them that the only support they get is from one code for limited applicability of some products of that type but not all products of that type.

    In the process of conducting the inspection on a building , if I observe water piping in unconditioned spaces or heat tape in concealed locations I will make an issue of it.
    No problem, just don't claim the code does not allow it, simply say that YOU think it is a bad idea.

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  53. #53
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No problem, just don't claim the code does not allow it, simply say that YOU think it is a bad idea.
    Jerry - Sorry I even engaged you. I should have known better when you stated", there is no issue as long as you recognize that CODE allows for heat tape to be used as one option".
    I should have recognized you for what you are instead of engaging in a discussion with you. I will know better next time.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    12. For installation in accessible areas only. "
    Second - The IPC makes no mention of heat tape. It only mentions heat . If you research what "heat" is defined as in the IBC,you will find that heat tape does not qualify.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Finally, some useful information.
    Jim,

    It took you untold number of posts to provide useful information, when you did I acknowledged it and that it was useful.

    Then you tried to further prove your point by providing other information which I pointed out were not applicable.

    Then you went back to your opinions.

    Now you are at:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - Sorry I even engaged you. I should have known better when you stated", there is no issue as long as you recognize that CODE allows for heat tape to be used as one option".
    I should have recognized you for what you are instead of engaging in a discussion with you. I will know better next time.
    If you get that way every time someone shows you that you are wrong ... I suspect that you get that way quite often.

    It is up to you to either take the heat for what you say which is incorrect along with the acknowledgement of what you say that is correct, or stay out of the kitchen. Most kitchens get hot and heated at times, it is up to you whether or not it is worth making your favorite dish or not.

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  55. #55
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    It took you untold number of posts to provide useful information, when you did I acknowledged it and that it was useful.

    Then you tried to further prove your point by providing other information which I pointed out were not applicable.

    Then you went back to your opinions.

    Now you are at:


    If you get that way every time someone shows you that you are wrong ... I suspect that you get that way quite often.

    It is up to you to either take the heat for what you say which is incorrect along with the acknowledgement of what you say that is correct, or stay out of the kitchen. Most kitchens get hot and heated at times, it is up to you whether or not it is worth making your favorite dish or not.
    Jerry - I have made it a personal rule to not engage in discussions with destructive personalities.
    I can stand the heat, but cannot tolerate the false representations ,false information, manipulation of information, stupidity, lack of understanding of basic facts and personal attacks that destructive personnalites bring to the discussion.
    FYI - The point that you were hanging your hat on is FALSE. Easy Heat is not approved for installation in concealed spaces.
    The instruction manual states@ #8 "Never install Easy Heat in walls,floors, and ceilings ."
    You really should do some fact checking.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    One can lead a horse to water but one cannot make the horse drink ... sometimes the horse chooses to drown I instead of drinking ... and now the horse has backtracked all the way to one single brand not indicative or representative of the discussion ... (sigh) ... I fear that the horse has drowned in a mess of its own making.

    I will leave the horse by the water's edge in case it comes to its senses.



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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    ~snip~
    FYI - The point that you were hanging your hat on is FALSE. Easy Heat is not approved for installation in concealed spaces.
    The instruction manual states@ #8 "Never install Easy Heat in walls,floors, and ceilings ."
    You really should do some fact checking.
    Please show me on the self regulating heat tape instructions where it says not to use in walls or concealed spaces. This is Easy Heat by Emerson. Here is the instructions in a PDF file http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...ii_low_res.pdf

    I do not understand why you can not understand that their is different classifications of heat tape/cable.


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Please show me on the self regulating heat tape instructions where it says not to use in walls or concealed spaces. This is Easy Heat by Emerson. Here is the instructions in a PDF file http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...ii_low_res.pdf

    I do not understand why you can not understand that their is different classifications of heat tape/cable.
    http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...AHB_ii_web.pdf

    See # 8


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Please show me on the self regulating heat tape instructions where it says not to use in walls or concealed spaces. This is Easy Heat by Emerson. Here is the instructions in a PDF file http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...ii_low_res.pdf

    I do not understand why you can not understand that their is different classifications of heat tape/cable.
    Ron - I have been looking for heat tape for many years that is approved by UL for installation in concealed locations.I have yet to be able to locate any. I did contact UL to inquire if any existed and was told that to their knowledge there was none that was approved .


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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Please show me on the self regulating heat tape instructions where it says not to use in walls or concealed spaces. This is Easy Heat by Emerson. Here is the instructions in a PDF file http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...ii_low_res.pdf

    I do not understand why you can not understand that their is different classifications of heat tape/cable.
    Ron -In the instructions you provided.

    " Maintenance
    Check cable each year for any damage before energizing the
    heating cable. Check any ground fault protection device for
    proper operation. Check pipe insulation and replace any that
    may be loose or damaged. "

    How do you check the cable if it is installed in a concealed space ? That implies that it must be in an accessible space.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ron -In the instructions you provided.

    " Maintenance
    Check cable each year for any damage before energizing the
    heating cable. Check any ground fault protection device for
    proper operation. Check pipe insulation and replace any that
    may be loose or damaged. "

    How do you check the cable if it is installed in a concealed space ? That implies that it must be in an accessible space.
    How do you inspect a pipe that was professionally insulated with out tearing it all apart? The heat tape manufactures recommend the self regulating heat tapes to be insulated like this picture. Why not read the whole thing you posted, Check the cable each year for any damage, then they state check pipe insulation and replace any that may be loose or damaged. With the last part it is telling me that the part of the cable to inspect is any that is not insulated in other words protected from damage.

    Pipe.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    The instructions on the model you love to quote the restriction on is the constant wattage model not the self regulating. The link I provided from Emerson Easy Heat proves my point, not all heat tapes are the same. Each model meets a different standard.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    Please show me on the self regulating heat tape instructions where it says not to use in walls or concealed spaces. This is Easy Heat by Emerson. Here is the instructions in a PDF file http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...ii_low_res.pdf

    I do not understand why you can not understand that their is different classifications of heat tape/cable.
    Ron,

    Those instructions also say:
    - Protecting the system with thermal insulation - - Before insulating, ensure that there is no damage, such as nicks or cuts on the heating cables. Immediately cover the pipe, cables, connections, valves and spigots with 1/2" (12.7 mm) to 1" (25.4 mm) thick fiberglass insulation or equivalent. Do not leave the cables exposed. Use fire-resistant materials such as fiberglass wrap. Make sure the insulation is waterproofed (with polyethylene or other vapor barriers) in areas where water may come in contact with the insulation.

    Not quite sure how one can "Check cable each year for any damage before energizing the
    heating cable." when the cables are not exposed (not allowed to be left exposed) and the cables are encased in insulation.

    Is one supposed to remove the insulation each year to visually inspect each and every inch of cable? I double it. I suspect that maintenance section is addressing any ends which are not covered and are therefore susceptible to damage (the covered cables would not be susceptible to damage).

    That maintenance section also says " heck pipe insulation and replace any that may be loose or damaged.", and that would apply to all visible insulation and says to replace any that may be loose - another reason to not think they are telling one to remove the insulation to inspect each inch of the cable.

    One must make sure they read the entire instructions, not just pick and choose a sentence here and there.

    One way to find out is to call and talk with one or their engineers and ask for additional information, including any listing and labeling information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  63. #63
    Jim Abram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hasil View Post
    How do you inspect a pipe that was professionally insulated with out tearing it all apart? The heat tape manufactures recommend the self regulating heat tapes to be insulated like this picture. Why not read the whole thing you posted, Check the cable each year for any damage, then they state check pipe insulation and replace any that may be loose or damaged. With the last part it is telling me that the part of the cable to inspect is any that is not insulated in other words protected from damage.

    Pipe.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -



    The instructions on the model you love to quote the restriction on is the constant wattage model not the self regulating. The link I provided from Emerson Easy Heat proves my point, not all heat tapes are the same. Each model meets a different standard.
    Ron - To the best of my knowledge there are no heat tapes that are approved by UL for installation in concealed locations. As installation in a wall ,( a concealed location ) is the subject of this discussion I think that we are focusing on heat tapes in concealed locations.
    The failures ,(read fires), that I have observed have been due to arcing which is due to damaged cable insulation.I think that is why the manufacturer specifies an annual inspection.


  64. #64
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    Default Re: Water supply pipes routed in exterior walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Ron - To the best of my knowledge there are no heat tapes that are approved by UL for installation in concealed locations. As installation in a wall ,( a concealed location ) is the subject of this discussion I think that we are focusing on heat tapes in concealed locations.
    The failures ,(read fires), that I have observed have been due to arcing which is due to damaged cable insulation.I think that is why the manufacturer specifies an annual inspection.
    I provided you a link from a heat tape manufacture that showed them getting UL approval on heat tape to be used on fire sprinkler systems. Now tell me how many fire sprinkler pipes do you see out in the open? Most are ran in walls and ceiling space. So this would be an approval for use in concealed locations.


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