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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If there were a practical way to flood the roof with a fire hose (would take the fire department's permission which makes it impractical, along with other reasons) ... why not?



    I became concerned because anytime someone spends so much time and effort to come up with ways and reasons NOT to test a shower pan ... and then thinks it is for the benefit of their client - that is typically an indication of an inspector who is more interested in their benefits (time versus money) than in their client's benefit of finding a leaking shower pan.

    As many of us have said over the years about other testing procedures - Try it, you'll like it ... Mikey did (Special K I believe). Suddenly you will realize just how many leaking shower pans you have been missing and wonder why it took you so long to switch.
    Again Jerry, doing what you do best misconstruing fact for fiction purely for the benefit of argument or debate.

    There are many aspects of a home inspection which may be impractical to perform to a definitive degree and I think you know that. Watering down roofs, windows siding etc are extreme examples. We look for areas of concern, some visible indication of warranting repair, replacement or remediation and hopefully give appropriate advise. The reason why home inspections are non-invasive is primarily because of damage being caused in order to examine for a potential deficiency. With that in mind, and potential damage being mandated to avoid, should we not take steps to protect from damage versus causing it? Providing observed or non-observed conditions to a client, who expects both thoroughness and expediency is not doing a dis-service, complies with State law and SOPs. Furthermore, disclaiming a shower pan as a source for leaks yet none being observed is no different than making the same statement about 90% of a structure's components. It is not an issue of time vs money but one of not opening the door to liability - a simple concept. There is also a balance of fairness which you seem to not understand or incorporate into your business practice or ethic. I do not consider an inspection to be an ' Us vs Them' scenario, as I read into your posts. I have, perhaps, a higher regard for the person whose home I am inspecting than yourself. Personally, I can not justify potentially causing damage, by questionable means, where none previously existed. But... Whatever floats your boat....must be an ego thing.

    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #67
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    There are many aspects of a home inspection which may be impractical to perform to a definitive degree and I think you know that.
    Ian,

    You know I agree as I have said that.

    However, NOT flood testing a shower pan is not one of those items.

    Many inspectors do it all the time, and many (probably most) find shower stall (i.e., 'pan') leaks.

    It is a simple test, easy to do, not real time consuming, and the results it gives when it finds a leak is of great benefit to your clients.

    It is like many tests done in many things, from mechanical things to construction to the human body - the test may not provide a factual negative result ("false negative" is the term I am sure that you have heard in the past for test results like that), however, the test DOES provide a factual positive result.

    A "false negative" result simply means that additional tests are required to confirm that a "false negative" is in fact an accurate negative - that is not what the home inspector is looking for.

    An accurate positive result requires no further testing - that is what the home inspector is looking for.

    Has nothing to do with ego or lack of ego - it only has to do with looking for things that are wrong, being able to find them in a practical manner, and reporting those items to the client.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #68
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ian,

    You know I agree as I have said that.

    However, NOT flood testing a shower pan is not one of those items.

    Many inspectors do it all the time, and many (probably most) find shower stall (i.e., 'pan') leaks.

    It is a simple test, easy to do, not real time consuming, and the results it gives when it finds a leak is of great benefit to your clients.

    It is like many tests done in many things, from mechanical things to construction to the human body - the test may not provide a factual negative result ("false negative" is the term I am sure that you have heard in the past for test results like that), however, the test DOES provide

    A "false negative" result simply means that additional tests are required to confirm that a "false negative" is in fact an accurate negative - that is not what the home inspector is looking for.

    An accurate positive result requires no further testing - that is what the home inspector is looking for.

    Has nothing to do with ego or lack of ego - it only has to do with looking for things that are wrong, being able to find them in a practical manner, and reporting those items to the client.
    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree - on the merits of pan flooding, that is. I understand your rationalization and your justification for 2nd story showers as potential leaks may be revealed in the ceiling beneath. But what of shower pans on a ground floor slab where leaking may not be evident (absent the use of I.R. Camera), perhaps for days, if ever? Water depletion in the flooded pan may simply mean an incomplete seal. How would you address those pans? "Tested - no leaks observed" , "Not tested - no evidence of prior leaks" , "Tested - further monitoring indicated due to water depletion" or ???


  4. #69
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    But what of shower pans on a ground floor slab ...
    Depends on the installation of the shower.

    For slabs on grade, if the shower is recessed down into the slab and cast in place in the concrete, no pan is required as it is presumed that any leakage will seep into the concrete and down to the moisture barrier (if it goes that far) and there will not be any damage done.

    For slabs on grade, with the shower floor not recessed down into the slab, a pan is still required.

    You will still see leakage around the walls enclosing the shower, and, frequently (as has been shown in various photos posted here over the years) you will see the evidence of the leakage at the edge of the slab. This is evident even with recessed showers which were not case in place correctly.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #70
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Gaudet View Post
    Vern,

    I come across tile surrounds that I know leak. If it has damage that would leak into the ceiling below I do not test it I just write it up it needs repair. In most cases you can see the water stains on the ceiling below. I also have a thermal camera and a moisture meter.

    Bottom line I don't have to prove it leaks. If you cause a leak be ready for a claim that you caused a problem in the owners house. Years back I tested a fiberglass shower stall that had a leak I ran it under normal conditions, no leaks present when I left. However, when I came back 48 hours later to pick up my radon monitor the ceiling had fallen down. As you can expect the owner tried to get me to fix it. I did not. Sine then I picked up a thermal camera.

    FYI, "all" tile surrounds eventually leak due to the grout being porous. In most cases it will break down and leak within 10 years.

    Keep it simple.

    Steve
    The Thermal Camera seems like a tool I would want if I were an inspector. You could merely take the picture prior to going upstairs and determine if there was water in the drywall to eliminate the potential for liability for something you did not cause.

    Another point not mentioned in this series of replies and questions is on a slab, prior to rat proofing being part of the code, there was an opening for water to drain into if a shower pan leaked. These leaks would be from tile shower pans because the requirement to rat proof probably predated newer fabricated shower pans. You could have a leak and never know about it. Just a thought...


  6. #71
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    An interested friend has sent me the following bit of info. supplied to him from a kind California Licensed "Termite Operaror":



    Structural Pest Control Act, 1991. Report Requirements Under Section 8516(b)10.
    (12) Repair a stall shower if it is found to leak when water tested for a minimum of fifteen (15) minutes after the shower drain has been plugged and the base filled to within one (1) inch of the top of the shower dam. Stall showers with no dam or less than two (2) inches to the top of the dam are to be water tested by running water on the unplugged shower base for a minimum of five (5) minutes. Showers over finished ceilings must be inspected but need not be water tested. If water stains are evident on the ceiling, recommendations shall be made for further inspection and testing.

    This is absolutely a California requirement.
    Testing of shower pans is not required and is not within the scope of a home inspector’s responsibilities. This falls under the requirements of a Branch 3 Pest Control (termite inspector) licensed as an operator or field rep.
    Hope this helps.


  7. #72
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by tom daley View Post
    Testing of shower pans is not required and is not within the scope of a home inspector’s responsibilities.
    Not a correct statement.

    It is a requirement for the pest control operator/inspector.

    It is not prohibited of the home inspector.

    Neither puts it in, or "not within" the home inspector's responsibilities ... other than doing what needs to be done to meet what the home inspector presents as what they do (which, at a minimum, would meet the SoP plus whatever else the standard of care is for the area for home inspectors).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #73
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  9. #74
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Testing of shower pans is not required and is not within the scope of a home inspector’s responsibilities.
    The above is evidence that Jim does not read what he responds to.

    Jerry - Do you have any references or documentation to back up your claim ?
    Additional evidence that Jim does not read what he responds to.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #75
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The above is evidence that Jim does not read what he responds to.



    Additional evidence that Jim does not read what he responds to.
    Huh...?
    Would much prefer reference to official documentation, as requested.


  11. #76
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Ian and Jim seem to have a problem understanding the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It is a requirement for the pest control operator/inspector.
    - That section was quoted by others.

    It is not prohibited of the home inspector.
    - There is nothing to quote as nothing prohibits it.

    Neither puts it in, or "not within" the home inspector's responsibilities ...
    - Not sure what is difficult to understand about that part???? Should be pretty much self-explanatory.

    ... other than doing what needs to be done to meet what the home inspector presents as what they do (which, at a minimum, would meet the SoP plus whatever else the standard of care is for the area for home inspectors).
    - No SoP that I have ever read PROHIBITS the inspector from testing the shower pan.
    - THE INSPECTOR'S advertising material and past practices AND other inspectors' advertising material and past practices could very will include that the inspector should be testing the shower pan.
    - Not sure what was difficult to understand there either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  12. #77
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry - Here we go again with everybody else is wrong.
    I am beginning to understand you now that you claim that federal and state court judges and case law are wrong.

    What you said is -


    "Testing of shower pans is not required and is not within the scope of a home inspector’s responsibilities.


    Posted by Jerry Peck - That is not a correct statement.



    T
    Jim,

    The above is a great example of why your posts make little sense, thank you for that example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram
    What you said is -


    "Testing of shower pans is not required and is not within the scope of a home inspector’s responsibilities.
    That is not what *I* said.

    Further down you put what I said in quotes except that you did not post it as I said it, your posted it as you quoting me:
    Posted by Jerry Peck - That is not a correct statement.
    Not only did *I* not say "Posted by Jerry Peck" (your quote symbol is in front of that part), but *I* did also not post that in bold or italics. So you really are not "quoting me", you are trying to make it fit the way you think, and, trust me, based on your posts, you and I do NOT think alike ... thankfully for me as I would be embarrassed if I did think and post like you do.

    However, in the interests of not bugging everyone else with my responses to your belches ... you can carry on by yourself.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #78

    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Jerry & Jim,

    Many of us read and participate in this forum to learn and share, when you (Jerry and Jim) run on and on about what each other stated or did not state in multiple topics over lines and lines of posts it is not constructive. There are many times when your insights are constructive but lately this has not been the case. You should exchange each other phone numbers and argue on the phone or if ten paces works try that but please remember that his forum is for the many!

    Jeff Zehnder - Home Inspector, Raleigh, NC
    http://www.jjeffzehnder.com/
    http://carolinahomeinspections.com/

  14. #79
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder View Post
    Jerry & Jim,

    Many of us read and participate in this forum to learn and share, when you (Jerry and Jim) run on and on about what each other stated or did not state in multiple topics over lines and lines of posts it is not constructive. There are many times when your insights are constructive but lately this has not been the case. You should exchange each other phone numbers and argue on the phone or if ten paces works try that but please remember that his forum is for the many!
    Jeff,

    Precisely why I posted this earlier in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    However, in the interests of not bugging everyone else with my responses to your belches ... you can carry on by yourself.
    I fully agree with you.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  15. #80
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jeff - I do not know who made you the decision maker on what is constructive or not. There is an ongoing discussion and if you would like to contribute please do so. Your interruption is rude at best and does nothing to contribute to the community.

    Jerry has been caught, yet again, making things up. Until Jerry has been properly trained he will continue to do so. I know that it is painful but, it is the price we pay to improve this site.
    Jim
    The discussion between you and Jerry is no longer constructive.
    This has become an argument instead of a debate.
    It is unlikely that either of you are likely to alter the other persons opinion.
    It would be better if both of you to drop it and move on.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  16. #81
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Rick,

    ... mum's the word when it comes to Jim's continued posts and rants ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  17. #82
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rick,

    ... mum's the word when it comes to Jim's continued posts and rants ...
    Jerry
    There are many other on this site and particular thread whose opinions are just as valid, if not more so, than yours. Myself included. You are not omnipotent, can be wrong and a little humble pie now and again would go a long way toward credibility.

    Now going back to the OP and with regard to flooding shower pans or not, please refer to an earlier post and thread by Michael Thomas, (paragoninspects) wherein the issues and disadvantages of pan flooding is clearly explained. And again, shower pans are basins without stoppers , not designed to hold water to any depth and purely facilitate drainage. Sure, inspectors can flood pans all they want, if in accordance with State or organizational sop but must always be mindful of potential liability in doing so.

    Last edited by Ian Page; 05-17-2014 at 07:13 PM.

  18. #83
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Sure, inspectors can flood pans all they want, if in accordance with State or organizational sop but must always be mindful of potential liability in doing so.
    Ian,

    You are almost there.

    The home inspector is permitted to flood test shower pans if they so choose, they do not require "f in accordance with State or organizational sop".

    "but must always be mindful of potential liability in doing so"

    And that liability can be managed and shifted to the seller with by doing the right things.

    The discussion by some was that home inspectors were not allowed to flood test shower pans - they can, nothing prohibits the home inspector from doing so.

    In fact, for home inspectors who are also pest inspectors ... they are "required" to test shower pans - not because they are home inspectors, because they are pest inspectors. I was both when I did home inspections (but pest inspectors in Florida were not required to test shower pans, nor were they prohibited from it either).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  19. #84
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ian,

    You are almost there.

    The home inspector is permitted to flood test shower pans if they so choose, they do not require "f in accordance with State or organizational sop".

    "but must always be mindful of potential liability in doing so"

    And that liability can be managed and shifted to the seller with by doing the right things.

    The discussion by some was that home inspectors were not allowed to flood test shower pans - they can, nothing prohibits the home inspector from doing so.

    In fact, for home inspectors who are also pest inspectors ... they are "required" to test shower pans - not because they are home inspectors, because they are pest inspectors. I was both when I did home inspections (but pest inspectors in Florida were not required to test shower pans, nor were they prohibited from it either).
    The 'if' was meant as non-preclusive.

    Perhaps some States require that finished pans should not be flooded during a home inspection...and, I sense, you are almost there also. However, I don't know how the liability could be shifted but it could be shared, thus lessening the Inspector's culpability to some degree (apportioned liability). Why go to those lengths, when aware of the inherent dangers - why not simply defer with a good explanation? We do the same with not running the A/C cooling at cool temps. for example? No harm, no foul.

    Last edited by Ian Page; 05-17-2014 at 09:18 PM.

  20. #85
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Ian
    I understand your concerns about liability from testing shower pans. But you concerns are based in fear, not in fact. Many inspectors on this forum regularly test pans, without incident.
    You might be more comfortable doing this. In the report recommend the shower pan be tested, provide a form the HO consents to stating the HO warrants the shower pan is without defects, or the HO consents to testing. This way if the HO object to the inspection it's on them, if they allow testing they have given you informed consent.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  21. #86
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    However, I don't know how the liability could be shifted but it could be shared, thus lessening the Inspector's culpability to some degree (apportioned liability). Why go to those lengths, when aware of the inherent dangers - why not simply defer with a good explanation? We do the same with not running the A/C cooling at cool temps. for example? No harm, no foul.
    The liability can be shifted to the owner quite easily, has has been explained previously.

    Why would one not go with testing the shower pan when testing the shower pan is so easy and not testing the shower pan could be quite harmful to your client?

    Harm equals foul equals liability for NOT testing the shower pans when they are so easy to test.

    There is a greater level of liability for not testing shower pans than for testing shower pans - unless one just says 'Oh, by the way, I don't test shower pans for leaks even though I am aware that a high percentage of them leak.'

    Why not just follow that with 'Oh, yeah, and I don't remove electrical panel covers either even though I know that there are problems in a high percentage of electrical panels.'

    And, 'Oh, I don't run a/c systems either even though I know that there are problems in a high percentage of a/c systems.'

    In fact, why not just say you don't inspect or test anything, no matter how easy it is to test, even though you know that a high percentage of those items have problems, here is my bill, make the check out to ... Ian, we can both go to extremes on this, but testing a shower pans is not extreme, it is easy, and it exposed many which leak, and the liability of testing them is almost nil versus the liability of not testing them.

    As I have said before, though, it is your business and your call, I just keep explaining it for everyone else who has not made their mind up not to do something easy which products useful results so often and has very low liability for doing it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #87
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The liability can be shifted to the owner quite easily, has has been explained previously.

    Why would one not go with testing the shower pan when testing the shower pan is so easy and not testing the shower pan could be quite harmful to your client?

    Harm equals foul equals liability for NOT testing the shower pans when they are so easy to test.

    There is a greater level of liability for not testing shower pans than for testing shower pans - unless one just says 'Oh, by the way, I don't test shower pans for leaks even though I am aware that a high percentage of them leak.'

    Why not just follow that with 'Oh, yeah, and I don't remove electrical panel covers either even though I know that there are problems in a high percentage of electrical panels.'


    And, 'Oh, I don't run a/c systems either even though I know that there are problems in a high percentage of a/c systems.'

    In fact, why not just say you don't inspect or test anything, no matter how easy it is to test, even though you know that a high percentage of those items have problems, here is my bill, make the check out to ... Ian, we can both go to extremes on this, but testing a shower pans is not extreme, it is easy, and it exposed many which leak, and the liability of testing them is almost nil versus the liability of not testing them.

    As I have said before, though, it is your business and your call, I just keep explaining it for everyone else who has not made their mind up not to do something easy which products useful results so often and has very low liability for doing it.
    Here's the rub Jerry. I have no way of knowing how that pan was constructed, other than by what can be seen as a finished product (which may or may not be in need of some visual repair). By flooding it for a suitable amount of time to provoke a defect to surface, you are expecting the pan to perform for something for which it was neither constructed for or it's intended use. Shower pans are NOT tubs. Furthermore, flooding the dam to 'recommended' level (because there is no way to establish how high the dam is beneath the tile, will result in leaking but not because the actual pan leaks but because of overfilling, yet still within the drain-stoppers limit.


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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Here's the rub Jerry. I have no way of knowing how that pan was constructed, ...
    Here's the rub Ian. You don't need to know how the pan was constructed or how high the pan goes up - if the pan was constructed properly then you should be able to flood test it to within about 1" of the top of the threshold/curb (the 1" allows for 1/2" mud or cement board on top of the pan going over the curb/threshold, plus another 1/4" for thinset, plus another 1/4" for tile thickness - if the tile thickness is stone and is thicker then you could allow for that difference, some may have one piece marble caps over the curbs, you can see that thickness and allow for it - or, you could flood test to within 2" of the top of the curb/threshold).

    The pan is required to hold water to the top of the threshold/curb as the intent is that water will not leak into the walls where it is not seen, that the water will overflow the shower opening (at the curb/threshold) where the water will be visible).

    You are not trying to determine if the pan was constructed with the liner having been installed to the minimum required height or higher, only if the shower receptor (the shower pan) leaks, and if the shower pan leaks the the liner is not as high as it should be or someone cut it or damaged it, either of which makes the height of the liner only as high as the lowest cut or hole through the liner.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #89
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Jerry, though I accept your point of view, I still can not accept that the pan is ever constructed to hold water. Though on extremely rare occasion, a blockage in the drain could result in the pan holding water to some degree. I can't imagine any circumstance - other than sheer stupidity, where a person taking a shower would continue to let the shower run, knowing the water isn't draining away in the manner it is supposed to, paddling in the standing water to a depth of a couple of inches. And if they are that stupid...

    With that in mind I called three plumbing companies today (actually one was a rooter service) with a total of over 50 years experience in the trade and 20 plus employees, (it was a slow day) just to get their perspective. None recommended flooding without there being some prior evidence of a leak and only then as a process of elimination and as a last resort - checking supply and drain first. Even then, each recommended filling the pan with an alternative water source and not the shower supply. Only one said they had once responded to a call of a completely blocked pan with standing water. I asked what their protocol was for testing a shower pan for leaks and the consistent reply was basically...Why would you? If it ain't broke...etc. Though they each understood and accepted flooding as a reputable method but not necessarily reliable they were each as concerned about causing damage and resulting liability as myself. I dare say there are a good percentage of plumbers who routinely flood pans, without issue. Though testing pans seems to be left to the Inspection industry and not necessarily plumbing.

    So, with that, I will continue to disclaim flooding as a general rule but offer the 'service' only on the buyer's insistence and with the independent approval of the homeowner. I will also add to my disclaimer that the flooding test can also be performed during the Pest Inspection (in CA anyway).


  25. #90
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Jerry, though I accept your point of view, I still can not accept that the pan is ever constructed to hold water.
    You keep going on that constructed to hold water thing while I keep trying to direct you over to that it is not supposed to leak thing.

    There is a difference - a bathtub is constructed to hold water, a boat is not constructed to hold water but is not supposed to leak - I'm not talking about holding water, I'm talking about it leaking.

    So fill the shower pan up and see if it leaks.

    I'm not saying to take a bath in after you've fill it up.

    Now back to the original post - if you had even seen one of the shower pan testers that Marc was asking about you would know that it does not "hold water" as there is a hole in the center of it ... those only raise the water level approximately 2 inches then the rest of the water flows down the drain. From your point of view, you could say that those "hold" 2" of water, so be it if you need to think of it that way ... but they only "hold" that 2" of water if you keep the water running, turn the water off and the water will leak into the drain underneath the flange as they are not drain stoppers.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #91
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Jerry
    You have 22500 post. I'll bet almost half of them are on testing shower pans.
    You must like bashing your head on the wall.

    Try this:
    Breath in deeply, now exhale slowly.
    Now repeat after me, "I will not bash my head against the wall, because it will damage the wall".

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  27. #92
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Okay I am coming out of the shower stall... I do not test shower pans by filling them. I haven't ever done so and don't plan on doing so.

    It would be interesting to conduct a poll to see how many inspectors fill the pan and the number that don't.


  28. #93
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jerry
    You have 22500 post. I'll bet almost half of them are on testing shower pans.
    You must like bashing your head on the wall.

    Try this:
    Breath in deeply, now exhale slowly.
    Now repeat after me, "I will not bash my head against the wall, because it will damage the wall".
    Rick,

    Too late ... the tile wall just caved in - the soaked and falling apart green board let loose of the tiles and now the entire shower pan is leaking.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #94
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jerry
    You have 22500 post. I'll bet almost half of them are on testing shower pans.
    You must like bashing your head on the wall.

    Try this:
    Breath in deeply, now exhale slowly.
    Now repeat after me, "I will not bash my head against the wall, because it will damage the wall".
    Rick
    The very fact that there are sooooo many posts about shower pan flooding is because there are a good number of inspectors who do not agree with Jerry's point of view and his posts are attempts to validate his argument. His post would be minimized if he presented his argument, which, initially, he does fairly well and then said, "...but is your business, your business practice, do what you think is best for you..." Instead of trying to persuade otherwise with monotonous repetition. His posts invariably demand debate because of misinformation, failure to recognize validity in other opinions and a frequent lack of response when cornered. But, having said that he is a wealth of information and provides invaluable resource material, just not always right.


  30. #95
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You keep going on that constructed to hold water thing while I keep trying to direct you over to that it is not supposed to leak thing.

    There is a difference - a bathtub is constructed to hold water, a boat is not constructed to hold water but is not supposed to leak - I'm not talking about holding water, I'm talking about it leaking.

    So fill the shower pan up and see if it leaks.

    I'm not saying to take a bath in after you've fill it up.

    Now back to the original post - if you had even seen one of the shower pan testers that Marc was asking about you would know that it does not "hold water" as there is a hole in the center of it ... those only raise the water level approximately 2 inches then the rest of the water flows down the drain. From your point of view, you could say that those "hold" 2" of water, so be it if you need to think of it that way ... but they only "hold" that 2" of water if you keep the water running, turn the water off and the water will leak into the drain underneath the flange as they are not drain stoppers.
    Jerry
    Yes, I will continue to maintain the pan is not designed to hold water. I will also accept that it should not leak and that flooding may expose a leak.

    However, as inspectors we examine, inspect and test things within a home using normal and usual methods for testing...We use on/off switches for lighting etc, thermostats to call for heat or cool, operate a variety of components using the normal method for activation. In my view, flooding the pan is above and beyond its normal and typical use. We do not, for example, run the dishwasher and then completely remove it to see if there is some small leak, previously unseen. We do not hose down roofs and then check inside the attic. We do not purposefully overload circuits to see if a breaker trips, except for GFCIs .We do not light a fire under smoke or C.O. Alarms to make sure it actually does work under actual conditions. Etc etc. The inspection is visual, with some degree of physical testing but only utilizing normal and typical operating conditions and methods. Pan flooding is A-typical for normal, everyday use.
    I wonder how many inspectors actually fill every bath tub to capacity to see if the overflow leaks or not, which is a real possibility?


    I have a drain-stopper, probably dried out by now from lack of use.


  31. #96
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Rick
    The very fact that there are sooooo many posts about shower pan flooding is because there are a good number of inspectors who do not agree with Jerry's point of view and his posts are attempts to validate his argument. His post would be minimized if he presented his argument, which, initially, he does fairly well and then said, "...but is your business, your business practice, do what you think is best for you..." Instead of trying to persuade otherwise with monotonous repetition. His posts invariably demand debate because of misinformation, failure to recognize validity in other opinions and a frequent lack of response when cornered. But, having said that he is a wealth of information and provides invaluable resource material, just not always right.
    Ian
    I agree with Jerry that shower pans should be tested.
    Jerry is just trying to explain why it should be tested ( even if it is "monotonous repetition").
    And no, I have not seen where he has posted misinformation.
    If you choose not to test them that's your choice, but don't try to tell us (inspectors that do test) it's not needed.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  32. #97
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    In another thread an inspector did not report that an expansion tank was not installed at the WH. A plumber came out for a different problem and said an expansion tank needs to be installed. The HI said in that area expansions tanks are not required. (In this post I'll not debate if it is required or not.)
    Anyhow, sometimes, even if something is not required (such as an expansion tank or shower pan test) it can still be needed.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  33. #98
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Well said but, you missed one important point . Jerry is always right,just ask him.

    Jerry's position just does not hold water. Testing a shower pan short term does not ascertain that the pan will not leak in the future , that the shower stall will not leak when used in a normal manner,that the water supply and valves are not leaking and that the drain is not leaking. From this point of view testing a pan short term determines very little other than there were no visible leaks due to flooding during a short term test. This is a dog and pony show.
    The same could be said about inspecting a roof.
    Just because an HI inspects a roof and finds no leaks does not mean it will not at some time in the future develop a leak. It does not even mean that a small leak is not present. So should we not inspect roofs?
    Now if you choose not to inspect shower pan, that's is your choice. But to insist that a more compression inspection is of no value is, without logic.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  34. #99
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Well said but, you missed one important point . Jerry is always right,just ask him.
    Yes, Jerry thinks he is right, and so do you., me and most people.
    There is debate only when we disagree.
    Sometimes it's just a minor point, sometimes not.

    I forget if it was Dale or Zig that said (taught).
    It's almost impossible to convince someone they are wrong ,
    however, they may make a different decision based on new information.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  35. #100
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Rick - Your logic escapes me. Are you saying that we should flood roofs?
    If you have any desire to be respected here (or anywhere), it would do you good not to be obtuse and so absurd.
    I'm willing to explain my opinions, when I feel it can help someone understand, but I don't feel as though you want to understand.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  36. #101
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Rick - Your point is that you flood shower pans to properly inspect them .
    My question is do you propose flooding roofs to inspect them also. That is not an absurd question. I have flooded roofs in the past, ( with the written permission of the property owner), when there was a question about potential leakage.
    No, I do not flood a roof

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  37. #102
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    I trust you now understand that it is not an absurd question.
    My mistake.
    Someone once made the ridiculous comparison of building a dam on the roof to flood test it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    In some circumstances , I have tested a roof with pressurized water to determine that it did not leak.
    I have not done that, but I do understand how it may be informative.
    Although, using your words about inspecting a shower.
    The roof could still have an undetected leak
    The roof could still leak at a later date.
    So using your logic, why did you bother doing it?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  38. #103
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    A flat roof with a roof drain is similar in configuration to a shower pan and the process is similar.

    A criteria was established for testing the roof using ANSI standards and manufacturers specifications. The roof was tested to that criteria.Yes it could leak in the future but anything is possible. The test was to certify correct installation.
    So you see the benefit of flooding a roof (at least once), but you see no benefit whatsoever in doing similar on a shower. OK, your choice.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  39. #104
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    I am the home owner of a leaking problem. We tore out the entire bathroom and took a video of all.

    Water proofing failed because the installer failed.

    To help you understand the problem I have a short Youtube video. Each step of the demo was recorded. https://youtu.be/GyVWWLTx9aI

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am the home owner of a leaking problem. We tore out the entire bathroom and took a video of all.

    Water proofing failed because the installer failed.

    To help you understand the problem I have a short Youtube video. Each step of the demo was recorded. https://youtu.be/GyVWWLTx9aI


  40. #105
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    Default Re: Leaking shower pan.

    oops, replied to an old message in the thread - I may edit this again with another post.

    Okay, I will use this post to reply to the latest post with the video:

    There is basically one correct statement in that video - and that is that most/many codes state that the shower pan liner extend a minimum of 3" beyond the shower curb/threshold, which in this no-curb/threshold shower would be where the "shower" wall ends.

    The shower pan liner, as was pointed out in the video, did not extend out that 3".

    There is no requirement for, and no reason for, the bottom of the shower pan liner extension (beyond that 3") to extend up the wall - if that is "a cause" of this particular shower leaking, then the shower pan liner was not installed properly to start with ... the shower pan liner is supposed to slope toward the drain a minimum of 1/4" per foot (the shower pan liner is not supposed to be, or intended to be, installed on a flat/level floor surface).

    Additionally, installing a zero-threshold shower (no curb) if fraught with potential issues because water DOES splash outside the shower (unless there is a shower enclosure to serve as a perimeter to catch the shower ... shower curtains simply cannot be relied upon to catch and stop the shower water within the shower (unless the shower curtain is placed sufficiently far enough inside the perimeter of the shower to serve that purpose ... in which case the interior dimensions of that shower would be reduced to the point of not meeting minimum size requirements).

    Yes, there are apparently installation issues with that shower pan liner - just not as described (except for the 3" extension issue mentioned), and the other installation issues not addressed (such as likely not sloping the shower pan liner) likely put all other issues in the 'minor' column because that is such an important requirement.

    The above is, obviously, only based on the information provided in that post and the video - but when one does such a video ... at least get it right.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 06-08-2017 at 05:26 PM. Reason: oops - replied to an old message which was on the second page
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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