Thread: Flir E4

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Gordon Lee

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

You want to see water moving?

I think he is referring to in-slab heating and he wants to be able to see the heat pattern of the piping.

Not familiar with the E4, but my old B Cam picks it up very easily, so I would think that camera would as well.

An IR camera will show radiant floor heating coils, pipes, etc very well. Sure beats crawling on the floor.

I got an E5 from Flir direct. It picks up a lot of stuff... look at flir direct b/c you get freebies with the purchase.. I got a $200 moisture meter w/ mine... I do not have any stake in flir direct, just a happy customer.

One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir

Originally Posted by Marc M

One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir

Looks like the guy laying out the hydro lines was in a hurry to finish on a Friday evening.

Under good circumstances the FLIR E4 should easily see the hydronic lines. This assumes they are not too deep in the concrete, and that the heat has not been on for a long time. If the slab has been heating for awhile the E4 will have more trouble differentiating exactly where the lines are since the concrete will be more evenly warm. Here's a link to a blog post I wrote for Ivy Tools comparing the images of the E4 E5 E6 and E8. You can see that the E4 has considerably less resolution, but since you know where to look and can control the conditions, the E4 can get the job done in this situation.

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

Scott,

Do you know when the patent was issued?

I ask because I suspect that my use of the IR camera during inspections predates their patent, in which case the use of IR in inspections was common knowledge and common knowledge is not allowed to be patented. Also, it was part of my promoting and advertising (word-of-mouth advertising) and business model ... I give anyone and everyone permission to keep my business model and promoting and advertising methods going for inspections.

I would be willing to testify against those patent trolls if the dates worked out as I suspect the dates would.

Of course, though, that would still require an attorney to crush the patent trolls once and for all.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

I was completely unaware of this.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...frared-cameras

Commentary in the article speculates that Nick Gromicko's actions may make this worse.

And more.......
Patent Lawsuit Threatens the use of Infrared Cameras for Home Inspectors | The Home Inspector | StarTribune.com

And for anyone's reading enjoyment, the actual lawsuit.

http://optimalbuilding.com/files/Hom...Inspection.pdf

Originally Posted by Gordon Lee

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

The E4 will work, but it is so low rez that you will have to walk all of the floor for a closer look = more time. Seeing the individual coils gets obscured by carpeting, furniture and if the concrete temp has stabilized to the same temp as the cooled water in the coils, it becomes one big blur. It's the blur that shows a leak BTW. Ideally, turn on the heat first in a cold (low 60's) house and wait a few hours or at the end of inspection to pull out the IR camera.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Scott,

Do you know when the patent was issued?

I ask because I suspect that my use of the IR camera during inspections predates their patent, in which case the use of IR in inspections was common knowledge and common knowledge is not allowed to be patented. Also, it was part of my promoting and advertising (word-of-mouth advertising) and business model ... I give anyone and everyone permission to keep my business model and promoting and advertising methods going for inspections.

I would be willing to testify against those patent trolls if the dates worked out as I suspect the dates would.

Of course, though, that would still require an attorney to crush the patent trolls once and for all.

Jerry, I don't have the exact date but it was back around 2002 if I'm not mistaken. They have also subsequent additions for a total of around 5-6 patents that can impact home inspectors and just about anyone using an IR camera on a residential structure regardless of what they are doing.

This is a breakdown of what is being faced:

Patent No. 7,369,955 - Residential Indoor Environmental Quality Inspection Method: This patent covers the usage of an infrared camera to locate any thermal anomaly - including but not limited to an uncontrolled or hidden water intrusion - in conjunction with obtaining data relating to indoor air quality, including visual confirmation of mold, collection of mold samples, measurement of relative humidity, installation of a constant air/gas monitor system and/or other measurements including air pressure measurements. A thermal anomaly is an unexplained difference in temperature from one area of a house to another, often indicating a problem that can't be detected by ordinary means. Thermal anomalies signify a problem with faulty wiring, hidden moisture, missing insulation, heat/energy loss, termite infestations and more.

Patent No. 7,445,377 - Non-Destructive Residential Inspection Method and Apparatus: This patent covers HomeSafe's method for creating a "thermal window," that is, preparing a house for an IR inspection by creating a temperature differential between the inside and the outside of the house, followed by obtaining temperature profiles of the house's interior and exterior components. These temperature profiles are then analyzed to uncover thermal anomalies indicating problems such as moisture intrusion or electrical issues. This method helps to create more optimal conditions for efficient usage of IR and better interpretation of IR data in the inspection process.

Patent No. 7,385,483 - Infrared/Acoustic Method to Detect Termite Infestations in a Structure: This patent covers HomeSafe's four-step procedure for uncovering termite activity in a building, including: 1) a traditional visual inspection; 2) infrared detection of hidden moisture that may indicate the presence of termites; 3) usage of a moisture meter to confirm the presence of moisture in the "suspicious" area identified by IR; and 4) usage of HomeSafe's pattern recognition software to analyze and confirm termite signals on the spot.

Patent No. 7,434,990 - Additional Methods to Detect Termite Infestation in a Structure: This patent covers the use of infrared scanning to detect moisture associated with termite infestations followed by other methods, i.e., a microwave motion detector, gas detector or termite-sniffing dogs, to confirm the presence of termites.

Patent No. 7,271,706 - Termite Acoustic Detection Device: The patent covers HomeSafe's acoustic termite detection device which utilizes powerful acoustic (listening) sensors to literally hear termite sounds that are beyond the range of human hearing. Paired with IR scanning to find hidden moisture associated with termite infestations, the acoustic device pinpoints the exact location of a termite nest behind walls rapidly, accurately and non-destructively.

Patent No. 7,429,928 - Method to Prevent Termite Infestations by Modifying Termite Behavior: This patent covers HomeSafe's method to prevent termite infestations in a house by generating very low-amplitude acoustical vibrations within the house's interior walls. These vibrations, which are inaudible to the human ear, disturb and repel termites and them out of the house. The specific vibrations have a custom-selected frequency and amplitude experimentally proven to be highly effective at modifying termite behavior.



Additional Patent Applications Currently Under Review:

11/158,109 EIFS and Moisture Inspection with Infrared
12/194,977 Infrared, Moisture and Mold Sampling
12/234,958 Identifying Structural Defects and Infrared
12/209,590 Infrared, Temperature Profile Databases and Exhaust Blowers
11/893,240 Application Dispatched from Pre-Examination -Not Yet Docketed

To learn more about our patents, simply visit the USPTO’s Web site and perform a search at US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search.

Originally Posted by Gordon Lee

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Does it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Marc M

One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

Looks like the guy laying out the hydro lines was in a hurry to finish on a Friday evening.

I had to read that three times to get it. We "turn on the hydro" with an electrical breaker switch here. Our electrical power is supplied by hydroelectric dams by the BCHydro company.

Yes the IR image shows exactly where the water pipes ended up after they poured the concrete. Very enlightening.

• 
  

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Patent No. 7,369,955

Patent US7369955 - Method for residential indoor environmental quality inspection and monitoring - Google Patents

Publication number	US7369955 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 11/360,274
Publication date	May 6, 2008
Filing date	Feb 23, 2006
Priority date	Feb 23, 2006
Fee status	Paid

Patent No. 7,445,377

Publication number	US7445377 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 10/708,571
Publication date	Nov 4, 2008
Filing date	Mar 11, 2004
Priority date	Mar 12, 2003
Fee status	Paid

Patent No. 7,385,483

Publication number	US7385483 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 11/641,498
Publication date	10 Jun 2008
Filing date	19 Dec 2006
Priority date	9 Oct 2002
Fee status	Paid

Patent No. 7,434,990

Publication number	US7434990 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 10/711,248
Publication date	Oct 14, 2008
Filing date	Sep 3, 2004
Priority date	Oct 9, 2002
Fee status	Paid

Patent No. 7,271,706

Publication number	US7271706 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 10/680,377
Publication date	Sep 18, 2007
Filing date	Oct 7, 2003
Priority date	Oct 9, 2002
Fee status	Paid

Patent No. 7,429,928

Publication number	US7429928 B2
Publication type	Grant
Application number	US 11/904,093
Publication date	Sep 30, 2008
Filing date	Sep 26, 2007
Priority date	Oct 9, 2002
Fee status	Paid

Below is an image I took in January, 2005:

Tying this thread to the other thread with the same topic in it:
- http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tml#post242990

So you guys still doing IR?

Originally Posted by Marc M

So you guys still doing IR?

Under the overcoat, like a dirty old man.
Not.
I'm Canadian. Safe from the sharks,for now.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Under the overcoat, like a dirty old man.
Not.
I'm Canadian. Safe from the sharks,for now.

So these guys still pursuing lawsuits? i live in CA so you'd think i'd be used to this by now..

Originally Posted by Marc M

So these guys still pursuing lawsuits? i live in CA so you'd think i'd be used to this by now..

Looks like they are priming their pens based on the letter that was sent to thousands of inspectors across the country. All I can say is they appear to have a renewed vigor after the involvement of the owner of a large home inspector organization.