Thread: Titan electric tankless water heater N120

Would someone please tell me if these need pressure relief valves installed with the obvious extension to the exterior. I see them occasionally and saw two today with PVR installed with is usually the case!

Thanks, Jim

Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY

Would someone please tell me if these need pressure relief valves installed with the obvious extension to the exterior. I see them occasionally and saw two today with PVR installed with is usually the case!

Thanks, Jim

http://www.titanheater.com/pdf/titan...stallation.pdf

From the 2006 IRC off the ICC web site:
(First, though, notice that the manufacturer's installation instructions Rick posted did not address the safety relief valves, so you go by the code, and, notice that the code does not have an exemption for tankless water heater.)
- SECTION P2803 RELIEF VALVES (bold is mine)
- - P2803.1 Relief valves required.
- - - Appliances and equipment used for heating water or storing hot water shall be protected by:
- - - - 1. A separate pressure-relief valve and a separate temperature-relief valve; or
- - - - 2. A combination pressure- and temperature-relief valve.
- - P2803.2 Rating.
- - - Relief valves shall have a minimum rated capacity for the equipment served and shall conform to ANSI Z 21.22.
- - P2803.3 Pressure relief valves.
- - - Pressure-relief valves shall have a relief rating adequate to meet the pressure conditions for the appliances or equipment protected. In tanks, they shall be installed directly into a tank tapping or in a water line close to the tank. They shall be set to open at least 25 psi (172 kPa) above the system pressure but not over 150 psi (1034 kPa). The relief-valve setting shall not exceed the tanks rated working pressure.
- - P2803.4 Temperature relief valves.
- - - Temperature-relief valves shall have a relief rating compatible with the temperature conditions of the appliances or equipment protected. The valves shall be installed such that the temperature-sensing element monitors the water within the top 6 inches (152 mm) of the tank. The valve shall be set to open at a maximum temperature of 210°F (99°C).
- - P2803.5 Combination pressure-/temperature-relief valves.
- - - Combination pressure-/temperature-relief valves shall comply with all the requirements for separate pressure- and temperature-relief valves.
- - P2803.6 Installation of relief valves.
- - - A check or shutoff valve shall not be installed in the following locations:
- - - - 1. Between a relief valve and the termination point of the relief valve discharge pipe;
- - - - 2. Between a relief valve and a tank; or
- - - - 3. Between a relief valve and heating appliances or equipment.
- - - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe.
- - - - The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature- relief valve or combination valve shall:
- - - - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
- - - - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
- - - - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
- - - - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
- - - - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
- - - - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
- - - - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
- - - - - 8. Not be trapped.
- - - - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
- - - - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
- - - - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
- - - - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
- - - - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

Looks like the ICC information is out of date as this ( LLR ) shows that the 2012 IRC is in effect.

And this ( http://www.llr.sc.gov/POL/BCC/PDFfil...ifications.pdf ) does not show any change to that section from the 2012 wording, which is quite similar to, if not the same as, the 2006 wording.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

http://www.titanheater.com/pdf/titan...stallation.pdf

Thanks Rick, good information!

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Rheem tankless electric water heater installation instructions.

NOTICE:
5. Tankless water heaters are not
required to be equipped with
a Pressure and Temperature
Relief Valve (PTRV). If the
local inspector will not pass the
installation without a PTRV, it
should be installed on the hot
water outlet side of unit.

The code does not have an exemption from tankless water heaters, and the code requires that the water heater be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions AND the code, and the code requires that the most restrictive takes precedence (hence the note as to where to install the T&P relief valve when the inspector addresses the tankless in accordance with the code).

Also, do you have a link to the installation instructions you got that from - I haven't found those installation instructions yet.

do - you - have - a - link - to - the - installation - instructions

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

do - you - have - a - link - to - the - installation - instructions

Rick,

Maybe your English skills are not up to JA'S level?

I know he has a difficult time with the bigger words I've used in the past .... still, though, you did use two bigger words - "installation" and "instructions" - maybe that was the problem?

Jim
I understand you are relatively new to this forum, and therefore may be unfamiliar with forum etiquette.
When a poster provides information from an online source, including a small quote an a link, helps to insure others to verify the source. When a link is not provided validity of the statement is often in question.

Unknown to you, I have the unanswered questions about tankless WH as the OP
To me, it seems as though the codes do not address this as completely as I would like.
Tankless WH manufacturers are just as vague in their instructions.
So I would like to read more on the subject, ie; I repeated Jerry's request for a source.
And, no, I and others don't just accept it because you say so. You should provide a reference when/if needed.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

To me, it seems as though the codes do not address this as completely as I would like.

Rick,

I agree that the codes do not address this completely, or even very well at all for that matter.

While I am inclined to go with the thinking that a T&P relief valve may not be required by the operation functions of a tankless water heater (possibly should just have a pressure relief valve), I also understand the code reluctance to not exempt a T&P relief valve for a tankless because if the tankless does not shut off (the flow switch fails, along with any back up shut off which may be present having failed) the fact that there is no tank for the water to expand, the tankless water heaters do contain water filled piping which would explode.

The saving grace of the tankless water heater is that the volume of water it contains is far less than the volume of water a tank-type water heater contains, thus the potential energy the tankless water heater can build up is far less than the potential energy that can build up in a tank-type water heater.

Thus the difference is not in the danger of explosion (a tankless will likely explode quicker, which would be good), the difference would be in the size of the explosion and the damage and injuries which may result from a lesser explosion from less energy potential would be less than from a larger explosion with more energy potential.

Tankless WH manufacturers are just as vague in their instructions.

Agreed that most tankless water heater installation instructions are lacking in relevant information, the fact that they state that a temperature and pressure relief valve is not required does not take precedence over the code's requirement for a temperature and pressure relief valve to be installed.

Until the codes except out tankless water heaters from the requirement for having a T&P relief valve the codes' more restrictive requirements take precedence over the manufacturers' installation instructions.

One requirement for tankless water heaters could be addressed by the listing and labeling standards like electrical panels and enclosures are - the electrical panels and enclosures are intended to keep a fire in the panel in the panel, the standards for a tankless water heater could include that the enclosure contain the explosion from the failure of the tankless water heater shutting down when there is no water flow.

To me, that would solve the quandary of T&P relief valves for tankless water heaters - let them explode because of their limited energy potential but have the enclosures listed to contain that smaller explosion.

Problem solved.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Each and every time I request documentation or a source, that request goes unanswered .

Jim I have seen where the source and a link was provided, many times just for your benefit.
I know I include a quote and link whenever I think it will help.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

I provided the source, and cut and pasted . If you feel a need to verify It is very simple to locate.

Cut and past of the referenced text is important, however it should also include a link.
I'm not going to chase a goose for you.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

As far as etiquette is concerned please be advised of this Forum's rules - "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this Message Board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

OK, I deserved that. I can be rude and somewhat of a bully at times. But also give me due credit.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

As far as etiquette is concerned please be advised of this Forum's rules - "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this Message Board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

OK, I deserved that. I can be rude and somewhat of a bully at times. But also give me due credit.

Jim,

Strange that you would pull that out as you are the worst offender of that here.

you will not use this Message Board to post any material which is knowingly false

That condition applies to false information regarding someones reputation, libel, defamation, lies, not for posting inaccurate info on matters dealing with home inspections...

Just want to make sure the above in the rules and condition of 'use' is clearly understood... Now lets return to the carousel..

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Jerry - Your presentation of the code requirements is faulty. The manufacturers all disagree with you. Here we go again - everybody else is wrong .

Jim - Further in-your-face-evidence that you do not understand codes and that you are the greatest offender of the Forum Rules section you posted.

- - - Updated - - -

Rick,

That is the goose we shouldn't be chasing, right?

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Jerry - What you fail to understand is that very few people pay attention to codes so what the code says really does not matter. I have yet to see a plumbing permit pulled for one of these components. Do you really think that a HI should report that this component is in violation of code if it does not have a T&P valve?

Jim - FINALLY ... the way you really think and feel ... explains why your posts are all over the place, first manufacturing code which does not exist and applying it to something for which it did not apply, then to manufacturing reasons why code does not apply with code does apply.

The evidence in your posts is that you do not care what is real or applicable, only what Jim Abram's thinks and says - your post above explains a LOT about you and what and why you are here.

[QUOTE=Jim Abram]
This is totally fabricated drama and unnecessary in a professional forum .[/QUOTE]

You have done your best to make this professional forum into a nonprofessional one by your posts and initial insistence that non-applicable codes apply to non-applicable things, and then by arguing with everyone about everything, and now ending with (hopefully ending with) your post above that code does not matter because no one follows it ... total wacko.

You must be looking forward to today, according to the MA licensing site this is the end of your license suspension. Congratulations ... not sure it is a good thing for the citizens of the state of MA ...

Maybe now you can get back to work and start making sense of the real world???

You brought all this on yourself, then tried to pile it all on us ... your actions here have been anything but professional. Maybe now this forum can return to the professional forum it has been, and maybe now your inputs will become professional too. One can only hope.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

I have shown you that the manufacturers position is that these components do not require T& P valves.

Jim,

That one thing you have done, yes, however, while doing that you have also shown, and continue to show, that you do not grasp the concept that the codes use the word "AND" and not the word "OR" when the codes state to install in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions "AND" the code.

The code also refers to how to address when there are conflicts: a) follow the manufacturer; b) UNLESS that would violate the code, in which cases the code takes precedence.

Thus, while the manufacturer states that a T&P relief valve is not required, the code says that a T&P relief valve IS required, following the manufacturer's installation instructions on that would violate the code and thus the code takes precedence - a T&P relief valve IS THEREFORE REQUIRED by the code.

and you somehow have turned this into an explosion issue and ad hominid attacks. Again when you are proven wrong you lash out. Seek help .

Stating FACTS is attacks????

I'm done feeding Troll Jim Abrams, done chasing the Goose Jim Abrams - Jim Abram is not the goose which lays the golden eggs, what Jim Abram lays is waste to anything he comments on.

Yawn.

Yawn

(Rick, you shouldn't have yawned ... you know yawns are contagious. )

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Sorry Jerry - I gave you a chance to demonstrate that you are not a phoney. I even gave you hints along the way but, you clearly have demonstrated that you do not understand the Codes.
Pasted below is the applicable Code reference in this case.

R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections R102.4.1 and R102.4.2.

Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s instructions shall apply.

These water heaters are UL listed and comply with UL 499 .

Your posts were pure fabrications . Seek help.

Yawn ...

I guess I should post the facts in case Ian or someone else may actually believe Jim is correct ...

Jim,

Do you not read and understand what you are posting (rhetorical question - I already know you do not) ...

You posted this:
R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections R102.4.1 and R102.4.2.

Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s instructions shall apply.

For Jim, and any others with Jim's penchant for the absurd, here is the difference in what I am posting and what Jim is posting:
- My post's of the code REQUIRE the temperature and pressure relief valve, the manufacturer's installation instructions (some, not all) state that a temperature and pressure relief is NOT REQUIRED ... note that those installation instructions DO NOT STATE "not permitted" ... and those installation installation instructions state that, if required by local code then install the temperature and pressure relief valve in the hot outlet, not the cold inlet --- the installation instructions even state where to install it when it is required by the code (which it is).
- Jim's post with the exception says that if a code provision violates the conditions of the listing or installation instructions then the listing or installation instructions shall apply ... however, the code DOES NOT VIOLATE the listing or installation instructions by requiring a temperature and pressure relief valve be installed, in fact, CODE REQUIRING a temperature and pressure relief valve IS COMPLIANT WITH the listing, labeling, and installation instructions.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

Sorry Jerry - I gave you a chance to demonstrate that you are not a phoney. I even gave you hints along the way but, you clearly have demonstrated that you do not understand the Codes.

Sorry Jim - You took your chance you gave me and you ran with it ... I played out the line so you could set the hook and you took it all - hook, line, and sinker ... and you are now on the dock flopping around like a fish out of water (you are a "fish out of water" with regard to not knowing or understanding codes).

Jim - My recommendation for you is to quit while you are soooo farrrr behind rather than to continue to make a fool of yourself and document to all who read your posts that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yawn

... dang it Rick, now look what you have started ...

Yawn

Not that Jerry needs to be told this, but he is correct.

Good question Jim

The exception that you have posted is in the code, however, it does not apply in this instance.
The installation instruction do not prohibit an expansion tank, or relief valve. Some do say that an expansion tank is not needed or required, unless required by local code. BWT most local codes are using the IRC, which does require an ET or Relief valve.
Since installation of an expansion tank or relief valve does not violate the installation instructions, the exception does not apply.

I only respond because I can see that Jim and maybe a few HI's may not understand how the exception is applied.

Originally Posted by Jim Abram

... UL standards indicates no T&P is necessary and as the prevailing standard, no T&P is necessary.

Yawn

"necessary"

"required"

"allowed"

"permitted"

mean a totally different thing than

"NOT allowed"

"NOT permitted"

Those instructions and standards DO NOT state "NOT allowed" or "NOT permitted". Hopefully everyone else understands the difference ... Jim is a basket case and refuses to, or cannot grasp, the difference.

Yawn

Jim, you are putting everyone to sleep with your consistent refusal or inability to grasp what words mean.

Yawn

- - - Updated - - -

I'll try this a different way and see if Jim gets it.

Jim - Based on your interpretation of what "not required" means ... you are "not required" to respond.

(Rick, what is the bet - he gets it and does not respond or he does not get it and he responds?)

Rick,

That JA is posting some really wacko stuff, puts one to sleep ... Yawn.

There is some good information in here but, I'm sorry it degenerated into a shouting match.

In the past I have been challenged over an observation in a report. I like to be able to cite a defensible source when this happens. Typically this would be an accepted code or a manufacturer's published practice. It is difficult to have much credence when quoting "a guy/gal on a message board." That is why I appreciate seeing a verifiable reference.

I am fine with someone publishing an opinion about issues or even if the code makes any sense but I would not use those as support for an observation in one of my reports even though I might agree with them.

IMHO civility and logic can move a discussion forward and make it useful to us all, volume and repetition do not.

Rheem - http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdf...5c836bedcf.pdf (page 8)

Does the Titan need a pressure relief valve? - Tankless Water Heater Titan SCR2

Seisco - Seisco Tankless | Seisco Water Heater

Takagi - pressure relief valve wording identical to Titan - http://www.takagi.com/download/plumb...pplication.pdf and Takagi USA - The tankless water heater pioneers. Experience "Endless Hot Water"

Steibel - http://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/pd...tempraplus.pdf (page 8), Stiebel Eltron | Mini? Tankless Electric Water Heater

Bosch Tronic 3000 - "No temperature / pressure relief valve is necessary (subject to local codes)" - http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/20...1-12048-L6.pdf

City of Newark, CA - "Tankless water heaters shall be equipped with a temperature and pressure relief valve..." - http://www.newark.org/images/uploads...er_Heaters.pdf

And, Oh Look! Massachusetts: "Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph B of this section, the protective devices specified therein shall not be required in the case of that portion of tankless water heaters which contain water to be heated or stored under the provisions of section seventeen. Said portion of tankless water heaters shall be equipped with a pressure relief valve and an automatic tempering device, set to deliver water not exceeding one hundred and eighty degrees Fahrenheit and located between said tankless water heater and any hot water supply pipe which it serves." - https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...r142/Section19

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

http://www.titanheater.com/pdf/titan...stallation.pdf

Gentlemen according to the Titan Installation.PDF, it states that if any plastic or PEX piping are installed then a pressure relief valve is required. See these instruction in the bottom left corner of the PDF.