Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 66 to 116 of 116
  1. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    JP - was it just you who suggested a bonding jumper - I have seen nothing in the shark bite literature that talks about that.

    (I am not saying your wrong.) I question and challenge the fact they are indeed full time conductors since the SS bite rings are not bonded from one side to the other, The use of an o-ring can act as an insulator along with the plastic (synthetic) slave that disengages the bite ring. Unlike compression fittings (parker and swagelock) which actually compress a Ferrell on to the pipe and have a strong mechanical bond , I don't see that here

    Elite MGA Home Inspector E&O Insurance

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I tested several SB fittings on copper and got continuity.


  3. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    JP - was it just you who suggested a bonding jumper - I have seen nothing in the shark bite literature that talks about that.
    Dwight,

    SharkBite recommended the jumpers in their email.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #69
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    No. San Diego Co., CA
    Posts
    562

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical".
    In which case, where would be the harm in a one liner instruction..."If the application is used in continuous metal water supply, consult with an electrician concerning a potential break in electrical bonding continuity"? Okay that was two lines...

    Because, making that statement infers liability for the hundreds of thousands already installed, without warning. And, of course, opens the door real wide for litigation.

    Jerry, you are correct, they are in the plumbing biz but by its very nature the product infringes, to some extent, on the 'lectrik biz also and as such SB would have to assume some liability IMO. I don't think they should bury their heads in the sand but it ain't my business, I don't hold stock, will advise clients accordingly and just wait for the law suit...


  5. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    In which case, where would be the harm in a one liner instruction..."If the application is used in continuous metal water supply, consult with an electrician concerning a potential break in electrical bonding continuity"? Okay that was two lines...

    Because, making that statement infers liability for the hundreds of thousands already installed, without warning. And, of course, opens the door real wide for litigation.

    Jerry, you are correct, they are in the plumbing biz but by its very nature the product infringes, to some extent, on the 'lectrik biz also and as such SB would have to assume some liability IMO. I don't think they should bury their heads in the sand but it ain't my business, I don't hold stock, will advise clients accordingly and just wait for the law suit...
    Ian,

    The one liner would not remove them from liability, and, I agree that the one liner might raise questions for past installations, so they would require full disclosure and what needs to be done - actually, what they should do is have the SharkBite fittings for the US tested and, if they pass, then the empirical evidence would be that all previous SharkBite fittings were okay (provided no change in the manufacturing of the fittings had taken place which resulted in an altered electrical continuity path (changing from one type of brass to another would likely not raise questions, while changing the design of the grip ring so it made contact with the pipe and the brass better would likely raise questions).

    Virtually every product made for construction interacts in some way with other products and other trades, thus no manufacturer should bury their heads in the sand of 'this is the only trade my product affects' and think that the rest of their ostrich body was not exposed to all others.

    It's the proverbial "sticky wicket" for sure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I'm curious, do dielectric couplings come with warnings about continuity?


  7. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Charlotte NC
    Posts
    2,302

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    I'm curious, do dielectric couplings come with warnings about continuity?
    Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  8. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.
    And the outside is typically Brass, sometimes SS.


  9. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Curiosity raised. With a little rutting it seems that no one makes a comment about continuity here in the USA.

    Mueller Proline Push-Fit Fittings
    BrassPush-Fit
    http://www.muellerindustries.com/upl...Push%20Fit.pdf
    Copper Push-Fit
    http://www.muellerindustries.com/upl...Push%20Fit.pdf

    Pro Bite Push Fittings
    ProBite ® Push Connect Plumbing Fittings and Valves
    Install Instructions
    http://www.probite.com/literature/pr...ions_8X5pd.pdf

    ProBite O-rings are easily removed using a
    common O-ring pick, then easily replaced
    by pushing a new O-ring back into the
    exposed groove
    http://www.probite.com/literature/sh...vs_probite.pdf

    A.Y. McDonald

    Push-Fit Water Heater Connector
    DATA page
    http://www.aymcdonald.com/en-US/Comp...e-7a8d2b8cf6a2


  10. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

    Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.


  11. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

    Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.

    Raymond it might be in the strength of the continuity along with the resistance. I am not sure what the resistance of fitting is or what is considered in determining the resistance value. For example all wire has some resistance (even superconducting wire) while you or I can not measure it because our Ohm meters cost less than $ 100.00 and did not cost $10K for a super sensitive ohm meter what you consider continuity may not actually meet the US standard and may be considered more of a resister .

    Ya and what is up with the conducting dialectic fittings that is like being dry in a wet pool


  12. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.
    Maybe Canada gets UK sharkbites? Maybe it's hit and miss on continuity? Some here have reported continuity on tested samples, and some, like me, have reported a lack of continuity.

    But at least in the US, Jerry's email should settle it for us as HIs. Even if you have found samples with continuity in the past, SB's official position is that we shouldn't expect continuity and therefore, when SBs are found in an installation where continuity is required, then we should write it up. If you test those installations and find continuity, you should still note that SB are not designed to provide continuity.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  13. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    You've lost me; if a nipple is plastic lined how can there be continuity if the outside of the fitting is isolated via the plastic.

    Also like I said I have four SB fittings and tested for continuity and got a positive reading. This is in line with what the UK certification has shown.
    The plastic nipple is what separates the dissimilar metals like steel and copper from touching each other. The outside is brass or SS which does make contact with the two pipes. Take a look at one in the form of an universal union : quick look for diagram / picture for you.
    Dielectric Unions - Plumberologist
    or
    SCI: Dielectric Unions
    www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380


    The reason you may have continuity:
    If you push the copper pipe into the SB fitting and have it bottom out it will be making contact with the main brass body. It is held there by the SS retainer ring preventing the pipe from backing out. But if for some reason the pipe shifts then the contact will be broken. Maybe expansion/contraction, vibration or stress. Add to this the , for lack of better way to say it, the amount of continuity. Meaning how much will it conduct. A 20g wire has different potential capabilities than a 3g wire. Now it may be that in the UK the testing and certification is based on the perfect installation and connection. Which we all know is how the UK works, first time and every time perfect.


  14. #79
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    The email from SharkBite said that there "may" be continuity ... but that it will not conduct large amounts of current - which means that you "may" read continuity with a meter ... yet that same fitting would likely NOT serve the requirements needed for bonding out a ground fault.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Thanks to all!


  16. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Dielectric couplings are nipples lined with plastic the outside maintains the continuity.
    Head slap moment.


  17. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    The plastic nipple is what separates the dissimilar metals like steel and copper from touching each other. The outside is brass or SS which does make contact with the two pipes. Take a look at one in the form of an universal union : quick look for diagram / picture for you.
    Dielectric Unions - Plumberologist
    or
    SCI: Dielectric Unions
    www.smithcooper.com/catalogue/group/380


    The reason you may have continuity:
    If you push the copper pipe into the SB fitting and have it bottom out it will be making contact with the main brass body. It is held there by the SS retainer ring preventing the pipe from backing out. But if for some reason the pipe shifts then the contact will be broken. Maybe expansion/contraction, vibration or stress. Add to this the , for lack of better way to say it, the amount of continuity. Meaning how much will it conduct. A 20g wire has different potential capabilities than a 3g wire. Now it may be that in the UK the testing and certification is based on the perfect installation and connection. Which we all know is how the UK works, first time and every time perfect.
    There are two separate and distinct types:
    - dielectric unions (see post above)
    - dielectric nipples: MI-DE - Dielectric Nipples

    Dielectric unions work by actually breaking the electrical continuity of the metal water piping and isolating the metal water piping from the water heater - dielectric unions require a bonding jumper to be installed from the cold water supply to the hot water out branch piping because the dielectric unions electrically isolate the water heater, and thus the hot water branch piping, from the cold water piping where the bond is attached.

    Dielectric nipples work by maintaining the electrical continuity through the metal nipple, however, inside the nipple there is a plastic sleeve which breaks the continuity of the electrical connection to the water. Dielectric nipples do not require a bonding jumper from the cold water supply to the hot water out branch piping ... however:
    - Many electrical inspectors require the bonding jumper anyway because when the water heater is replaced and a dielectric union is installed to make it easier to remove and replace the water heater, the jumper prevents the bonding of the hot water branch piping from being broken.
    - Other electrical inspector (most?) require the cold to hot bonding jumper because the don't know what is going to be installed when the water heater is installed (the bonding is usually looked at during Electrical Rough Inspection and the water heater is not installed yet.
    - Some electrical inspectors do not require the cold to hot bonding jumper,
    - - possibly because they are not aware of the potential for losing the bond to the hot water piping (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category),
    - - possibly because they just don't think about it, and/or
    - - possibly because they don't care (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category too).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - Some electrical inspectors do not require the cold to hot bonding jumper,
    - - possibly because they are not aware of the potential for losing the bond to the hot water piping (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category),
    - - possibly because they just don't think about it, and/or
    - - possibly because they don't care (I have seen too many electrical inspectors in this category too).
    But.....there is no NEC requirement for a hot/cold bonding wire.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  19. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    But.....there is no NEC requirement for a hot/cold bonding wire.
    Ah, but there is.

    ALL metal water piping is required to be bonded ... the NEC does NOT say metal "cold" water piping.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Ah, but there is.

    ALL metal water piping is required to be bonded ... the NEC does NOT say metal "cold" water piping.

    I don't find anything in the NEC saying that a water heater breaks piping continuity and requiring a jumper across the hot and cold water lines.

    Maybe it's "best practice" but that's different than required.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  21. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I don't find anything in the NEC saying that a water heater breaks piping continuity and requiring a jumper across the hot and cold water lines.

    Maybe it's "best practice" but that's different than required.
    Likewise, you won't find anything in the NEC which says that if the first receptacle in the circuit has a GFCI which is wired as bypass instead of feed through, that the receptacles downstream have to have a GFCI device installed.

    The NEC simply states that the receptacles require GFCI protection, not what it takes to achieve it ... just like the NEC simply states that metal water piping is required to be bonded, not what it takes to achieve it.

    Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored and the attitude that if the codes do not specifically name each and every item - then the codes do not apply ... like in this case where I pointed out that the NEC requires ALL metal water piping to be bonded - then someone tries to say that if the bond is broken, the now un-bonded metal water piping doesn't need to be bonded ...Really?

    Where has common sense in what 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' means?

    If the metal water piping bond is broken 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' means that, using whatever means is necessary, 'metal water piping is required to be bonded' ... not just "some" of the metal water piping ... "all" of the metal water piping is required to be bonded.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,484

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    True - it is three phase with an accent
    Correct me if I'm wrong,
    in the UK, household power is 230 volt single-phase.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  23. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong,
    in the UK, household power is 230 volt single-phase.

    Here is a list(toward bottom) of countries.
    Mains electricity by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uited Kingdom 230 V[34] 50 Hz

    A little more something-something for you.
    http://www.twothirtyvolts.org.uk/pdf...n_230Volts.pdf

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 01-10-2015 at 06:36 AM.

  24. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .........
    Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored .............
    Maybe they are preparing to run for office. 2016 is just around the corner. Run Forest run....


  25. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Seems like recentlty, and more and more, I am seeing posts where common sense is being ignored and the attitude that if the codes do not specifically name each and every item - then the codes do not apply ... like in this case where I pointed out that the NEC requires ALL metal water piping to be bonded - then someone tries to say that if the bond is broken, the now un-bonded metal water piping doesn't need to be bonded ...Really?
    I agree with your comment about missing common sense at this forum.

    I'm guilty of failing to exercise common sense occasionally, but only occasionally. However, I am very good at finding and stating the obvious. And obviously, if the authors of the NEC, in their hundred or so years of writing codes, considered the water heater to be a major problem with metal piping continuity, then they would have addressed it. Lord knows they find plenty of minor things to put in the book, so if this issue doesn't rise to the level of their attention, then it must fall somewhere below minor. I don't find your example about GFCIs to be analogous. The NEC finds it necessary to spell out how many things are to be done when and where electricians have managed to do them wrong. So code and, arguably, common sense don't require a bonding jumper between the hot and cold metal pipes above the water heater. Your explanation assumes that a water heater breaks the bond, but the NEC obviously disagrees. It may be best practice but code is satisfied without the bond jumper unless specified differently in your area.

    And for us as HIs, it's not a defect worthy of writing up when we fail to see that jumper, in most installations. But as HIs, we should know when a jumper is required and that's why the discussion about SBs has been worthwhile.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  26. #91
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    And obviously, if the authors of the NEC, in their hundred or so years of writing codes, considered the water heater to be a major problem with metal piping continuity, then they would have addressed it.
    Huh?

    No one has said anything about a water heater being considered a major problem with metal water piping continuity.

    When dielectric nipples are used, and in earlier times, when non-dielectric nipples were used, there is no, and was not, any electrical continuity problem.

    The only electrical continuity "problem" is when one installs dielectric UNIOINS.

    No code can, or even tries to, address each and every possible and/or potential issue which may arise by someone installing something that person is not fully aware of or not aware of the implications of the installation of said "something".

    What do you NOT understand about the following? (bold, underlining, italic, red is mine for highlighting)
    - 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
    - - (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    - - - (1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
    - - - (2) Buildings of Multiple Occupancy. In buildings of multiple occupancy where the metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure for the individual occupancies is metallically isolated from all other occupancies by use of nonmetallic water piping, the metal water piping system(s) for each occupancy shall be permitted to be bonded to the equipment grounding terminal of the panelboard or switchboard enclosure (other than service equipment) supplying that occupancy. The bonding jumper shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122, based on the rating of the overcurrent protective device for the circuit supplying the occupancy.
    - - - (3) Multiple Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s). The metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the building or structure disconnecting means enclosure where located at the building or structure, to the equipment grounding conductor run with the supply conductors, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, based on the size of the feeder or branch circuit conductors that supply the building. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be larger than the largest ungrounded feeder or branch circuit conductor supplying the building.

    Lon,

    The lack of common sense is showing again - what do you NOT understand in this:

    "(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to ... "

    That does NOT say "parts of" or "some of", it says "metal water piping system(s)" ... "shall be bonded" ...

    ????? It's not rocket science stuff "metal water piping" ... ALL, not some or part ... "shall be bonded" ... shall, not maybe or if you want to ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    JP, few put on blinders and wear them with the zeal that you do. I have led your horse to the water and that is all that I can do or even want to do.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  28. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    JP, few put on blinders and wear them with the zeal that you do. I have led your horse to the water and that is all that I can do or even want to do.
    Lon,

    You still have not pointed to the part which says ... or even implies ... that ONLY PART OF, SOME OF, the metal water piping is required to be bonded - which apparently is your position.

    (deleted paragraph - no need to go here just because someone is unwilling to use common sense or learn)

    When your common sense kicks in and you finally read what the code is saying, and realize that it is not saying what you think it is, then, and only then, will the light come on and show you the way.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 01-10-2015 at 05:58 PM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #94
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    So now I am really confused

    So if a system has pex or some other synthetic that is approved and non metalic does that mean every faucet needs to be grounded ? if so how (sorry I am really not up on the use of plastics for domestic use )




  30. #95
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    So now I am really confused

    So if a system has pex or some other synthetic that is approved and non metalic does that mean every faucet needs to be grounded ? if so how (sorry I am really not up on the use of plastics for domestic use )

    Is PEX or other synthetic piping a "metal" water piping system?

    So, if the PEX or other synthetic piping system is not a "metal" water piping system ... who is saying anything about bonding those "nonmetallic" piping systems? (Oops, gave the answer to the first question away ... )

    So, you really aren't confused, are you?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  31. #96
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Lon,

    You still have not pointed to the part which says ... or even implies ... that ONLY PART OF, SOME OF, the metal water piping is required to be bonded - which apparently is your position.

    (deleted paragraph - no need to go here just because someone is unwilling to use common sense or learn)

    When your common sense kicks in and you finally read what the code is saying, and realize that it is not saying what you think it is, then, and only then, will the light come on and show you the way.
    I'll respond but I'll try hard not to respond in kind. Call it the kinder, gentler me......

    First of all, I can't point to something in the NEC that isn't addressed and that is the point of what I've said...repeatedly. We've both made assumptions. You've made the assumption that a water heater breaks the continuity in a metal piping system and the NEC requires a jumper to satisfy their requirement for bonding the metal piping. I've made the assumption that the NEC doesn't agree with your assumption or find this to be a significant concern, or they would have specifically addressed it. The NEC specifically describes the "hows" and "whats" throughout whenever it thinks there is a need. How they specifically and painfully describe how to single lug neutrals in the service panel comes to mind as an example.

    I've done some research into this and basically, the division in opinions mirrors our little debate. Some agree with you and others with me; that the NEC doesn't address this issue specifically and that while a jumper may be a best practice, it isn't a default requirement in the NEC. To support your opinion, I found a white paper from a UL engineer describing how changes in plumbing practices make a hot/cold jumper necessary though he admitted that the NEC doesn't address this beyond the general requirement that you point to. I might add, that considering the divergence in opinion over this, that the NEC should specifically address it.

    Which is likely why some AHJs address this more specifically such as New Jersey. Around here, none of our AHJs require it although I see a jumper about 10% of the time.

    All of this brings up a question for any reading this thread. Do any of you check for continuity between the hot and cold metal lines?

    In any event, readers of this thread can determine who's common sense has kicked in and we can once again agree to disagree although as heated as you've tried to make this debate, we are barely apart on it.

    Dwight: I'll try to answer your question minus any cheekiness. PEX doesn't need bonding because it can't be energized by a short into it or lightning strike. The bond where the metal supply line comes in from the tap is sufficient to satisfy NEC.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  32. #97
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Lon,

    Do I check for continuity between hot and cold? No I do not, and I am not about to. Nor am I going to tell clients that a jumper cable should be installed when SB fittings.


  33. #98
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

    I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

    I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

    ----------------

    So today we have water systems that come into buildings in Plastic pipe (no ground)

    we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal

    Grounding all metal in a plumbing system makes sense from a corrosion point of view , Possible electricution point of view as well. So I guess are we headded for trouble down the road - is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?


    Hummmmmmmm


  34. #99
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,141

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

    I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

    I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

    ----------------

    So today we have water systems that come into buildings in Plastic pipe (no ground)

    we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal

    Grounding all metal in a plumbing system makes sense from a corrosion point of view , Possible electricution point of view as well. So I guess are we headded for trouble down the road - is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?


    Hummmmmmmm
    Bonding requirement has NOTHING to do with corrosion prevention.

    Bonding requirement is from the electrical section of the code and is required for electrical safety.

    All metallic pipe or structural steel is required to be bonded to reduce the risk of electrical shock.

    The metal water pipe has been traditionally used as THE (or at least one of the) grounding electrodes to ground the building electrically.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  35. #100
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I
    You've made the assumption that a water heater breaks the continuity in a metal piping system and the NEC requires a jumper to satisfy their requirement for bonding the metal piping.
    Lon,

    Likewise, a kinder and gentler post ...

    I now see your problem ... at some point you quit reading my posts and began replying based on what you wanted to say.

    If you had been actually reading my posts, you would have seen that *I* have not said that the water breaks the bond - in fact, you would have seen where I said the opposite of that.

    Go back and actually*read* my posts ... then we can finish this educational class on bonding of metal water piping.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  36. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    I am trying to follow the logic of the need for metal piping to be bonded (if it does and to what extent) this is about logic and reason more than code.

    I understand that it was common place to ground the electrical system to the water main because it was a metal pipe that ran through the ground - great grounding rod

    I understand that grounding metal water lines reduces corrosion

    is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ?
    We are not talking about the service ground bond to the metal plumbing. Corrosion is not a problem prevented by a bonding jumper. If water was sufficient to carry any errant current, then bonding would not be needed. The conductivity of water is dependent on dissolved minerals and salts in it. Here our water has high conductivity but in other parts of the country it can have very poor conductivity. If the tub is fully isolated, then there is little potential shock hazard (no place for the current to go).

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  37. #102
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    we have systems that can be broken by a mix of plastic pipe and metal
    There should not be any metal water piping systems broken by plastic pipe - when plastic pipe is used to repair a section of metal pipe, the section of plastic pipe should be bonded around (bond clamp on the metal piping near the plastic pipe with a bonding jumper going between the two bonding clamps).

    [quote[Possible electricution point of view
    .
    .
    is there a hazzard from taking a bath in a tube that is electrically isolated (not grounded) is it possible for the water to gain potential energy ? [/QUOTE]

    It Is possible, and has occurred often enough to be addressed in the code, that the metal water piping becomes energized. Bonding the metal water piping to ground shunts the current back to ground, enough of a connection to fully energize the metal water piping and the breakers will trip off. Not a connection which fully energizes the metal water piping enough to trip the breaker and one could still get a shock, with the metal water piping being the better conductor in the parallel circuit (the person/the metal piping) the metal water piping will take most of the hit.

    Yes, it is a hazard to have the metal water piping isolated from ground as that allows the person to become the one and only ground fault path to clear the fault ... likely outcome is electrocution of the person.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #103
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Lon,
    I now see your problem ... at some point you quit reading my posts and began replying based on what you wanted to say.
    Funny that you would say that, because I've been thinking that you are reading things into my comments that I haven't said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If you had been actually reading my posts, you would have seen that *I* have not said that the water breaks the bond - in fact, you would have seen where I said the opposite of that.
    I think you meant to say water heater instead of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Go back and actually*read* my posts ... then we can finish this educational class on bonding of metal water piping.
    I did go back and re-read them. I don't see anything that changes any of my comments. At the risk of being in repeat mode, I'll restate my point and attempt clarification. A bonding jumper between hot and cold metal lines is not a default requirement in the NEC. It's probably a best practice for the reasons that you've stated, but unless a break in continuity is demonstrated (your point about dialectic unions is good) we should not by default call out as a defect a missing hot to cold jumper unless you are in an area that has a different standard.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  39. #104
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Massacusetts
    Posts
    149

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    So this is kind of what I am getting at here let us say we have the following conditions

    a house with the plumbing being pex and PVC

    You have cast iron fixtures (say an old claw foot tub and antique sink (porcelin over cast)

    I am trying to understand the code JP and put real life into vision here.

    So now we have real fixutures with no grounding lug on any part of them - potential for energy - high mineral salts in water

    outlets have GFI

    Where is the electric shock going to come from ?

    lightning ? , a light fixture with improper grounding - maybe an electric water heater that isn't properly grounded or ground wire corroded away ? even static electricity (yes potentials can get high enough to kill)

    - I know , I am being picky here but why not - I can see this happening , something to keep an eye out for - we all have seen stupidity on many levels

    is a plumber required to abide by the electrical code ?
    is the electrician required to make sure the plumbing is grounded ?


  40. #105
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,141

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Metal plumbing fixtures are not required to be bonded, metal piping is.

    There is very little risk of shock from your scenario, the risk is from metal piping systems, gas, water, air, steam, conduit, etc.
    Since pipe systems by their nature begin in one area and travel distances, they are subject to accidental or incidental scenarios that could energize the pipe system, the solution is to bond the pipe.
    There is also the risk of lightening or nearby lightening that can induce voltage onto the pipe systems as well as structural steel.
    Forget the water, metal fixtures, corrosion, the point is to reduce the danger of shock on metal pipe and structural metal by ensuring it is grounded.

    Electricians do bonding but plumbers are responsible for systems they install so they might be named in the lawsuit also!

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  41. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I have to admit that the more that interjected into the question of bonding the more obtuse the question becomes and I think for no reason.

    Let me try to intercede since I do not have a camel in this discussion diversion.

    1st system bonding is directed to metal pipe systems. If it is PEX or CPVC then maintaining the bond continuity of the pipe does not apply...PERIOD

    If it is a copper(steel, brass, gold,etc.) pipe run system. The copper pipe is to keep it's continuity through the entire system of the pipe. If at some point in the system there is break in the pipe that makes it no longer a continuous run of pipe such as making a 1/32 inche or 2 foot splice using PEX or any other non metal, then the copper pipe needs a jumper to connect the start and stop of the splice or disruption of continuity..

    If you have a hot water heater, metal pipe system, it is advisable (some places mandatory) to jump across the hot and cold pipes. Because it is possible that only the cold water input side is bonded and the fitting at the water heater may break that bond to the hot water side output. It is insurance on the bonding being continuous. If the hot water line (hot side) is bonded somewhere else to the cold water side then the jumper at the hot water heater may not be needed for practical purposes yet may be required for local code. Why, because they say so...

    What is the probability for the metal line to be energized???? Does not matter, since the code trumps the question. They say it is to be bonded and bonded it has to be. Kinda like GOD speaking to you, are you going to argue with the higher authority ?????? that makes the rules. Think not...

    Steel tub, fixtures connected to a PEX system are not part of the continuous bond requirement. Apples and oranges. Where are they going to be energized from is also not part of the the issue.

    The requirement is the requirement. You have to take it for what it is and not what it might be. Not what makes sense to you as it should be, nor what you can find fault with its' wording.


  42. #107
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,701

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    We use (myself included) the terms bonding and grounding interchangeably. When in fact they really have two different interpretations. Even though the codes will mix them together there is a difference. Not to start an argument just a thought of interest to ponder.

    For the interested a little something to look at:
    Grounding and Bonding — Part 1 of 3

    Grounding and Bonding ? Part 1 of 3 | Code Basics content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
    Most power quality and safety issues in electrical installations arise from misapplication of the grounding and bonding requirements of Art. 250. One common problem is installers ground where they should bond.
    While the NEC provides clear descriptions of grounding and bonding in Art. 100, the words are often misused in the various articles. Typically, the error involves saying “grounding” instead of “bonding.” This error is even in nomenclature such as “equipment grounding conductor.” You should not be grounding your load side equipment. You should be bonding it. ….
    Grounding and Bonding — Part 2 of 3

    Grounding and Bonding ? Part 2 of 3 | Code Basics content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine

    One of the revisions to the 2011 NEC involves a new definition for a common term: bonding jumper, supply-side. A supply side bonding jumper is a conductor on the supply side or within a service or separately derived system to ensure the electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected ….


  43. #108
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    We use (myself included) the terms bonding and grounding interchangeably.
    I used to make that mistake, but this forum cured me of that.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  44. #109
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,883

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    At the risk of being in repeat mode, I'll restate my point and attempt clarification. A bonding jumper between hot and cold metal lines is not a default requirement in the NEC.
    I will repeat myself too ... no one has said it was a default requirement.

    It only becomes a requirement when dielectric unions are installed - but again, I am repeating myself as I said that before - because dielectric unions actually break the electrical continuity through the unions (said that before too).

    With dielectric nipples, on the other hand, the electrical continuity is not broken (but I said that before too)

    The default NEC requirement is (and I've said this before too) is that "metal water piping systems" are required to be bonded, and that if ANYTHING breaks that electrical bonding continuity ... ANYTHING ... (water heater fittings - think dielectric unions - or SharkBite fittings or ANYTHING) then a bonding jumper is required to be installed (unless you come up with some other way to make the electrical continuity continuous throughout the system.

    Seems like maybe it was you who added in about a water heater breaking the continuity????

    It's probably a best practice for the reasons that you've stated, but unless a break in continuity is demonstrated (your point about dialectic unions is good) we should not by default call out as a defect a missing hot to cold jumper unless you are in an area that has a different standard.
    Well, looks like you are finally getting to where I've been trying to lead you.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  45. #110
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,374

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Well, looks like you are finally getting to where I've been trying to lead you.
    I have never changed my position, but maybe you finally read what I wrote. In any event, this poor dead horse doesn't have enough left to kick and with this post, I'm done with it.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  46. #111
    Loren Sanders Sr.'s Avatar
    Loren Sanders Sr. Guest

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Metal plumbing fixtures are not required to be bonded, metal piping is.

    There is very little risk of shock from your scenario, the risk is from metal piping systems, gas, water, air, steam, conduit, etc.
    Since pipe systems by their nature begin in one area and travel distances, they are subject to accidental or incidental scenarios that could energize the pipe system, the solution is to bond the pipe.
    There is also the risk of lightening or nearby lightening that can induce voltage onto the pipe systems as well as structural steel.
    Forget the water, metal fixtures, corrosion, the point is to reduce the danger of shock on metal pipe and structural metal by ensuring it is grounded.

    Electricians do bonding but plumbers are responsible for systems they install so they might be named in the lawsuit also!
    Jim I have a question. Aren't most connectors for water heaters isolated by the plastic between the tubing and the connector nut and the rubber seal inside the 3/4" connector nut?


  47. #112
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,141

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Sanders Sr. View Post
    Jim I have a question. Aren't most connectors for water heaters isolated by the plastic between the tubing and the connector nut and the rubber seal inside the 3/4" connector nut?
    Possibly, depending on the connector brand... What is the point of your question?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  48. #113
    Loren Sanders Sr.'s Avatar
    Loren Sanders Sr. Guest

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Possibly, depending on the connector brand... What is the point of your question?
    Doesn't the plastic and rubber isolate and insulate and therefore prevent bonding through the water heater connectors?


  49. #114
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,141

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Sanders Sr. View Post
    Doesn't the plastic and rubber isolate and insulate and therefore prevent bonding through the water heater connectors?
    Yes they would but again we don't bond the water heater, we bond the pipe with the GEC clamp on the water pipe.
    The heater is grounded with the electrical supply. The only thing not grounded then is the 18" or so of the flex connectors (If both ends are isolated as you suggest). 18" flex connectors that are exposed at the top of the heater are very unlikely to become accidentally energized but bond them if you like.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  50. #115
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Los angeles
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Billy

    I agree with you. The Trac certification may have recognition in North America. The Sharkbite fittings in UK/Europe are the same materials as used in North America Sharkbite fittings.

    So is TRAC accepted in North America as it is in Europe where the electrical continuity of the fitting has been proven by the agency?
    What I noticed, but nobody mentioned in this thread, is that the European Sharkbite fittings appear to be made of completely different materials and constructed differently. Note element "C" ("304 Stainless Steel Cartridge Ring") on page 8 in www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/sharkbite/wp-content/uploads/SB_TechBrchr_201411.pdf . Also note that on all pictures in the brochure, there is a silver color (stainless steel) ring visible. I have never seen that on the Sharkbite fittings in the U.S.

    The European fittings appear to be made explicitly for electrical continuity, while for the U.S. fittings they recommend jumping them. The question arises why they don't sell the same in the U.S. as in Europe, which would once and for all resolve the issue of unsuspecting homeowners and contractors breaking the electrical bonding of their metal water pipes. Given the high price of Sharkbites, I can't believe they would assume the associated liability and limited applicability of their fittings because of the cost of the minimal amount of additional steel needed vs. plastic.


  51. #116
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    MONTREAL QUEBEC-CANADA
    Posts
    1,674

    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Are Shark Bite push connectors acceptable by any local code authority?

    As well, I thought someone, Jerry's name comes to mind, did a resistance test to confirm electrical continuity to ground on a copper pipe with a Shark-Bite connection or am I mistaken?

    Either or, a jumper at the connection would just make sense.


    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •