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  1. #1
    Loren Sanders Sr.'s Avatar
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    Default Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I am installing Type L in my attic and walls. My current system is rolled under the slab. I have never used Shark Bites but have a difficult joint to solder way back in a cabinet that I will have difficulty seeing if I have proper solder flow plus it is in an interior kitchen cabinet and I don't want a fire as it is butted up against the Melonine finish inside my cabinets. I don't know if I can reach it to insert the tool to assemble the Shark Bite. I may have to use soft 1/2" copper and roll it back in that corner...any ideas?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Shark Bite fittings do not use a tool to assemble the fittings. They are a simple push connector. You'll only use the tool to disconnect the fittings. The "tool" is a simple piece of U shaped plastic, slightly larger in diameter than the fitting.

    To answer your question, no, Shark Bite fittings are not recommended by professional plumbers. Only because they can charge you much more for the installation if they have to sweat copper. Basically the same reason they don't recommend PEX, they can charge much more for the installation. That being said, I replaced all the galvanized water pipes in my house about 5 years ago with PEX and Shark Bite fittings and haven't had any problems whatsoever.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 11-18-2014 at 10:32 PM.
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  3. #3
    Loren Sanders Sr.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Shark Bite fittings do not use a tool to assemble the fittings. They are a simple push connector. You'll only use the tool to disconnect the fittings. The "tool" is a simple piece of U shaped plastic, slightly larger in diameter than the fitting.

    To answer your question, no, Shark Bite fittings are not recommended by professional plumbers. Only because they can charge you much more for the installation if they have to sweat copper. Basically the same reason they don't recommend PEX, they can charge much more for the installation. That being said, I replaced all the galvanized water pipes in my house about 5 years ago with PEX and Shark Bite fittings and haven't had any problems whatsoever.
    Thanks for your help. I have not used PEX before but understand it is very good. I am old school and prefer copper. My problem is my house had the copper installed under the slab rolled up into the walls. My hot leaked a few years ago and I installed my hot system is in the attic. I have a single story home. I am 75 years old and look forward to some fun installing the Cold system. Thanks again.
    Srloren


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I have used Shark Bite in my own home with good results, no failures.
    My licenced plumber uses Shark Bite and he swears by them.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Acceptable, yes. Plumbers love to hate them. Except when it saves them time or aggravation.

    A little advice; chamfer and then round the edges of the ends to be inserted into the fitting. Any little sharp edge or burr will damage the O-ring and may not fail for months or years but creates the possibility.. From practical experience I have had failure at 1 week, 2 months and 1 1/2 yrs all resulting from the same cause, nicked O-ring. I cut the fitting apart to inspect cause. Hast makes waste.

    The horse shoe is used to remove fitting, you can also use common pliers to get it off also.

    You can get insulation made to protect cabinet when sweating pipe.

    ps. You could pre-assemble(sweat together) the corner and then sweat a coupling in where it is easier for you to access....


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Sanders Sr. View Post
    I am installing Type L in my attic and walls.
    DON'T USE Shark Bite Fittings ... there is no electrical continuity through them, at least they are not tested or approved for electrical continuity through them, and thus need to be treated as though there is none (because there likely will be none when you need it).

    I called the factory (okay, the "importers") a few years ago and they asked what I was asking about. When I explained that interior metal water piping is required to be bonded to the grounding system and that the solder couplings and fittings continue the electrical bonding throughout the metal piping system, they stated that, no, they had not tested the fittings for that purpose, and that with the design of the fitting including non-metallic parts used to seal the fittings to the pipe that there could not be a guarantee that the electrical continuity would be continuous through the Shark Bite fittings.

    That means you would need to install a clamp on the copper piping on each side of any Shark Bite fitting and install a bonding jumper (properly sized wire) from pipe to pipe across the fitting ... just like they do for water meters, when plastic piping is used to repair a section of metal piping, etc.

    So, sure, use Shark Bite fittings, but by the time you buy the clamps (two clamps for each Shark Bite fitting) and buy the properly sized bonding wire, install the bonding clamps and bonding wire - you would probably be better off to just use solder fittings (there are fittings which contain the solder in them - "presoldered fittings", all you do is clean the end of the pipe like you would for a solder fitting, install the solder holding fitting, then heat the fitting to solder it on .. Pre-Soldered Copper Fittings – IAPMO Approved , PC604 - Adapter P x M ? Wrot Copper , and others).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I just used some Shark Bite fittings on PEX in my own home, remodeling a bathroom and replaced the shower valve. I see plumbers using them for repair work mostly. I used some Shark Bites a few years ago on a relatives home, no problems so far. Here's a video on how to make proper connections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF5ehHMHCdk


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    With a tubing cutter or a hacksaw and a file, replacing an electric water heater is about a one hour job. Good way to go.

    But take heed to JP's warning. Bonding is going to be an issue.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    JP brings up a good point about electrical continuity, but depending on what you are doing, it's no more concern than using PEX. I love Shark Bites. I've heard the bad stories about them but I've never seen a failure in observing around a thousand of them.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    JP brings up a good point about electrical continuity, but depending on what you are doing, it's no more concern than using PEX. I love Shark Bites. I've heard the bad stories about them but I've never seen a failure in observing around a thousand of them.
    It's no more concern than using PEX ... IF THE PIPING SYSTEM IS nonmetallic ... but if the piping system is metal - then it is a BIG CONCERN as metal piping systems are required to be bonded.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I've used SuperGlue, Copper-Bond epoxy adhesive in the past in difficult locations to solder. Easy to use, can be a little messy and working time for epoxy is less than stated. About $8 but can be used for multiple applications. Never had a problem with leaks except when I forgot/failed to clean fittings. Removal of the joint is the sames as for sweated but faster because of a lower melt point. Make sure the product is fresh off the shelf. If it's old it doesn't squeeze out of the syringes equally.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Shark Bites have stainless steel barbs on the inside that are the points that grab the pipes being inserted. Do they not provide the metal to metal contact for electrical continuity?


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Shark Bites have stainless steel barbs on the inside that are the points that grab the pipes being inserted. Do they not provide the metal to metal contact for electrical continuity?
    Not reliably according to the person I talked at there is not 'made in' intended electrical contact and there is/are nonmetallic part(s) inside which could interfere with electrical contact.

    The simple fact is that those fittings were not made to maintain electrical contact through the fittings, they were not tested to see if they maintained electrical contact through the fittings, and they are not listed for maintaining electrical contact through the fittings.

    Would you want to risk your life on a "maybe it will make electrical contact"?

    And then there is "I've used SuperGlue, Copper-Bond epoxy adhesive in the past in difficult locations to solder." ... what is the know and intended electrical contact through those?

    Just because it "glues" two things together and does leak does not mean it should be done. Using those things just may have broken the electrical bond through the metal piping system and it is sitting there waiting to shock someone.

    Or maybe those reading some of us get with the tick tracer on the plumbing can be traced back to those types of "repairs" or fittings?

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I had not considered the continuity issue with shark bites before. Now as I read this discussion, it's obvious that you need to consider what you're doing with them and where you're doing it.

    Here's an earlier discussion about them.

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ap-jumper.html

    Interesting that Shark Bite has not addressed this issue and as far as I know, there are not any code or legal concerns about continuity. This has that "feel" of being a bite to the arse similar to the issues that arose from CSST.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Jerry,
    I was just asking the question, not advocating the use of them. I looked at the spec sheet and it says they are approved by several codes, etc. I could not find anything about the electrical continuity.
    Did you actually talk to a tech person, or was it just the distributor and/or customer service desk person.

    Where I'm going with this is you may have talked to a desk person that really had no clue of the actual specs or testing. I don't know, and I'm not taking the defense of them.
    I have never cut one in half to see all of the inside, but isn't the body of the fitting brass, and the pipes are supposed to be fully inserted till they hit a stop? Its possible there is enough metal to metal contact on the inside of the fitting to preserve the continuity.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Jack,

    I talked with several people - I said I was seeking the answer to a technical question as to whether the fittings were electrically continuous, after being passed to several people who had no idea what I was asking I was passed to a person who said that they had never been asked that before - he said he would check on it and get back to me - which he did.

    From the other thread linked to, that was 3 years ago.

    From what Billy posted (the issue date of that is May 1, 2014) it appears that they have addressed that question and/or made changes as needed so that those fittings are now deemed electrically continuous when used on copper or steel pipe.

    Does that apply to older fittings or just newer fittings - I don't have the answer to that.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jack,

    I talked with several people - I said I was seeking the answer to a technical question as to whether the fittings were electrically continuous, after being passed to several people who had no idea what I was asking I was passed to a person who said that they had never been asked that before - he said he would check on it and get back to me - which he did.

    From the other thread linked to, that was 3 years ago.

    From what Billy posted (the issue date of that is May 1, 2014) it appears that they have addressed that question and/or made changes as needed so that those fittings are now deemed electrically continuous when used on copper or steel pipe.

    Does that apply to older fittings or just newer fittings - I don't have the answer to that.

    From a legal standpoint would probably include all fittings, past or present as long as there was no significant or radical change in manufacture. Otherwise Sharkbite would issue a product warning about consumers not relying on their older fittings for continuous bonding.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    It doesn't seem too hard to test it for continuity. Anybody ever try it? I don't see them too often but next time I do I'll try it. They usually are patching in a section of PEX when I see them, so that's definitely not going to have any continuity. I doubt the manufacturer is going to accept liability by stating that it does provide continuity if they don't have to.

    Jim Robinson
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    It doesn't seem too hard to test it for continuity. Anybody ever try it? I don't see them too often but next time I do I'll try it. They usually are patching in a section of PEX when I see them, so that's definitely not going to have any continuity. I doubt the manufacturer is going to accept liability by stating that it does provide continuity if they don't have to.
    ......

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    From a legal standpoint would probably include all fittings, past or present as long as there was no significant or radical change in manufacture. Otherwise Sharkbite would issue a product warning about consumers not relying on their older fittings for continuous bonding.
    That's my thinking also: the newer technical information would 'excludes fittings made before (date)' if they were too concerned about it.

    My guess is that the older fitting may not be rated for electrical continuity but the manufacturer realizes that the chances of their fittings being blamed for something is quite remote.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Nope ... no one has forgotten that, but ... I think someone has forgotten that the newer information does *not* state that fittings made before such-and-such date is excluded - thus, should a problem occur with an older fittings, they would be (could be in court) forced to stand behind their claim that the fittings are electrically continuous.

    Especially if no design changes were made - that would come out in court. No design changes means (indicates) that the older fittings will perform similarly to the newer fittings.

    If design changes were made ... the check they write will have more zeros and an extra comma or two.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-21-2014 at 06:26 PM. Reason: added last part
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I just checked two Shark Bite connections which were installed in April with a new water heater on copper plumbing pipe.
    There was litteraly no resistance shown with a DMM on either connection, in other words, electrical continuity.

    Yes, the connections could suffer from tarnish but so can a clamp and a set screw.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I just checked two Shark Bite connections which were installed in April with a new water heater on copper plumbing pipe.
    There was litteraly no resistance shown with a DMM on either connection, in other words, electrical continuity.

    Yes, the connections could suffer from tarnish but so can a clamp and a set screw.
    John, did you isolate the pipe from other possible electrical continuity to ensure you were reading the fittings themselves?

    I don't know how these things work inside but having used a couple, I can't see how they would have a reliable metal to metal continuity. They seem awfully loose.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Jim, I did not have permission to cut any pipe.

    I measured resistance and found it to be negligable, so there is no isolated pipe. I think that would satisfy the question of whether to use and trust the fittings.

    After installing, always check for isolated sections of pipes. Add a jumper strap if you need to. How's that?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Not having any resistance is not the same as being electrically bonded.
    A 24ga copper wire will show no resistance but is it suitable for use as a bonding wire.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Not having any resistance is not the same as being electrically bonded.
    A 24ga copper wire will show no resistance but is it suitable for use as a bonding wire?
    You are correct that a thin wire is not suitable for a bonding wire. But it might work as one. As long as it didn't burn up before the fault got back to the circuit breaker, which would be in the order of a milisecond.

    So the question is will the stainless steel grippers burn out like a thin wire? I don't know. Maybe someone should try 240 volts on a fitting. Even that won't prove they are always good conductors, only that the tested units are.

    Wait a bit. The thin wire will burn because it has a higher R than a thick one. The Sharkbites had R in the order of 0.2 ohms. The probes touched together, 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. probes 3" apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, several feet apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, across one or both fittings, 0.2 ohms. Yes, my DMM only puts out 9 volts, so we need more testing.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 11-25-2014 at 08:47 PM.
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    You are correct that a thin wire is not suitable for a bonding wire. But it might work as one. As long as it didn't burn up before the fault got back to the circuit breaker, which would be in the order of a milisecond.

    So the question is will the stainless steel grippers burn out like a thin wire? I don't know. Maybe someone should try 240 volts on a fitting. Even that won't prove they are always good conductors, only that the tested units are.

    Wait a bit. The thin wire will burn because it has a higher R than a thick one. The Sharkbites had R in the order of 0.2 ohms. The probes touched together, 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. probes 3" apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, several feet apart on the same pipe, 0.2 ohms, across one or both fittings, 0.2 ohms. Yes, my DMM only puts out 9 volts, so we need more testing.
    After reading this thread and without reference to continuity issues, I still think Shark Bites are a band aid fix. Any time you have O-rings in a device, you should have access to repair or replace parts. I chose not to utilize SBs.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Jerry Peck makes an excellent argument about continuity , that said I have used them in situations where I had a leak and couldn't get anything or didn't have anything else available.

    My recommendation however is to use either Swagelock fittings (expensive but never had one fail - ever) or yor lock fittings

    McMaster-Carr

    These use a metal ferrel that is compressed onto the pipe and is a compression type fitting - much higher quality than what you get at home depot. For years I worked in the compressed gas industry and I used them for High pressure (10,000 psi - and fittings all rated for pressure and application) and low pressure water lines that would occasionally need to be removed for maintenance. I have also used them in tight spots under cabinets too where I did not want to use a torch

    As for the sharkbite fittings - well they serve their purpose and I consider them a quick repair that can last a year if needed. But I must warn you - I have never seen a pressure rating on them either and I don't know at what pressure the anchor teeth will let go


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    So after reading and giving my 2 cents on this matter I wanted to look at the specs which I found (Jerry Peck you should save a copy of this)

    http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...cPckg_2014.pdf

    it took a while but I did find they are rated for 200 psi (a little low for some domestic water systems) Most fittings for this use are rated at 300 psig which gives a safety factor just over twice the maximum pressure (125 psig max specified by most water systems)

    I think these are great for a pex system but I would still solder most of my joints (if not all)


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I used a SB fitting to do a repair several years ago and have not had one problem with it since. Since its visible in my basement workshop, I have the opportunity to inspect it at will.
    I have never seen water pressure any where close to 200 psi, so I feel pretty safe there too.
    I'm not worried about the electrical concerns since I have PEX feeding the house, and the system is connected to a ground rod near the meter.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Pressure ratings of components in general should be 1.5 times or more than the maximum expected pressure . I have even had a water filter burst apart that was rated for 150 PSI . Just a little more on this it also has to be rated for the type of service. So taking a valve off the shelf at home depot might be rated for water but not for gas
    Or steam (maybe more special services like oxygen or cryogenic)


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Pressure ratings of components in general should be 1.5 times or more than the maximum expected pressure . I have even had a water filter burst apart that was rated for 150 PSI . Just a little more on this it also has to be rated for the type of service. So taking a valve off the shelf at home depot might be rated for water but not for gas
    Or steam (maybe more special services like oxygen or cryogenic)


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Maximum expected pressure in a home is 80 psi.
    Yes I know that much higher pressures are common, however, thats why regulators are made. The code calls for 80 psi max.


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    The code calls for 80 psi max.
    Happy New Tear Jack,

    *I think we are way past Code and are now in the Land of feelings.

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    Cool Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I do water heater and boiler replacements and have used SB's with ZERO problems. If the joint is improperly seated, you will know instantly, unlike a sweated joint. They can take moderate flexion without compromising the joint. They can get you out of a bind where the shutoff upstream is not holding and you need to do a 'wet tap' immediately. The valve can spin 360 on its axis and remain intact, which is good for some things and not so desirable for others such as expansion tanks and regulators. Nothing, included sweated copper, is perfect. Every home maintenance guy should carry a kit of SBs in case of damaged lines so you can effect emergency repairs.

    As for the electrical bonding issue, it is my understanding that PEX makes for a lousy bond, too as does pvc/ cpvc. The problem comes in with hybrid systems where someone thinks they can bond to a nearby copper pipe without testing it. If you want to know about the integrity of a bond, isolate it from anything that can't take high voltage then test with a megger.

    On the plus side, SBs carry a warranty, unlike more brass valves: http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/techn...e-Warranty.pdf

    They also spent the money to get all the appropriate approvals: Certifications & Uses

    I have seen some PEX joints leak and a lot of copper joints but never a SB once its made. You also don't have the creeping crude build up over time from flux left on copper. I recently found a badly corroded copper joint joint right over the draft hood of a DHW heater. The water leaking dripped right onto the elbow right off the hood. Both the ell and the hood fell apart in my hands. It almost killed then from a CO exposure. Death by flux. I've seen copper leaks from flux corrosion over electrical equipment causing shock hazards too. Then there is the ever fabulous growth of fungi in cold, damp dark places.

    I think it is much ado about nothing.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    As for the electrical bonding issue, it is my understanding that PEX makes for a lousy bond, too as does pvc/ cpvc. The problem comes in with hybrid systems where someone thinks they can bond to a nearby copper pipe without testing it. If you want to know about the integrity of a bond, isolate it from anything that can't take high voltage then test with a megger.
    .
    .
    I think it is much ado about nothing.
    Electrical bonding is far from "much ado about nothing - if it was "much ado about nothing" ... there would not be any requirements for bonding to start with.

    I found this while reading the Sharkbite engineering data sheets while searching for information on testing they did for bonding (have not found any so far):

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    Applications
    Tubing: Hard drawn copper pipe Type K, L and M and annealed Type M not to exceed 3/8 nominal complying with ASTM B 88, PEX tubing complying with ASTM F 876 or CSA B137.5, or CVPC tubing complying with ASTM D 2846 or CSA B137.6. SharkBite fittings are approved for installations above and below ground applications. Please consult with local code for final approval. Failure to comply with the above types of pipe or application could result in connection failures.
    Seems that Sharkbite fittings are ONLY APPROVED FOR USE on the following:
    - Hard drawn copper Types K, L, and M
    - soft drawn (annealed) copper Type M NOT TO EXCEED 3/8" nominal
    - PEX
    - CPVC
    - ... nothing in there about their use PB or other types of tubing, so if you find it on any other piping other than those above, it is definitely not "much ado about nothing".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Red face Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Electrical bonding is far from "much ado about nothing - if it was "much ado about nothing" ... there would not be any requirements for bonding to start with.

    I found this while reading the Sharkbite engineering data sheets while searching for information on testing they did for bonding (have not found any so far):

    (underlining and bold are mine)


    Seems that Sharkbite fittings are ONLY APPROVED FOR USE on the following:
    - Hard drawn copper Types K, L, and M
    - soft drawn (annealed) copper Type M NOT TO EXCEED 3/8" nominal
    - PEX
    - CPVC
    - ... nothing in there about their use PB or other types of tubing, so if you find it on any other piping other than those above, it is definitely not "much ado about nothing".

    Jerry, how do you bond PEX? You know, we cannot idiot proof the world. At some point humans have to take responsibility for their actions. If you replace a valve on a metallic pipe that was bonded with a SB, then you must find an alternative means of bonding. It doesn't make the SB defective. It means you need to grow up and learn all the facts before using a product or suffer the consequences. If you cut a metallic pipe being bonded and it is carrying some current, you run the risk of electric shock. Where's the idiot-proofing in that?

    I don't know why you're so hung up on what types of pipe SB is approved for. No valve is approved for every application. You must do your due diligence in every case. Why you're on this crusade is beyond me. If you want to require warnings at the SB bin in the home centers, why stop there? How about gas water heater installation, which has the highest probability of human injury from anything else in the store? So, I stand my my comments. You may continue with your paranoia.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    Jerry, how do you bond PEX?
    Bob, what do you not understand about bonding copper?

    You know, we cannot idiot proof the world. At some point humans have to take responsibility for their actions.
    Yep, and replacing or installing single wall vent where double or triple wall vent should be installed is much ado about nothing too - as you say, you can't idiot proof the world ... right?

    How many fires is acceptable to you?

    How many electrical shocks or electrocutions is acceptable to you?

    It is all "much ado about nothing" ... to the point where YOU are not concerned about it - BUT, when it is something YOU are concerned about ... it is much ado about a big deal - does't work that way in real life ... just because it is not something that YOU are concerned about does NOT make it "much ado about nothing".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Page 4 states ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf
    Billy,

    I've contacted Sharkbite as I have not been able to find any US information that the Sharkbite fittings are listed for use as electrically continuous.

    The fittings "may" be electrically continuous ... just not tested and listed as being electrically continuous - in the UK ... that may not matter, however, here in the US we like documentation and listing which can be traced back to testing which verifies that the fittings would be electrically continuous.

    I'll update when I get additional information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Bob, what do you not understand about bonding copper?
    Not a thing your majesty. It is the responsibility of the person installing the fitting to arrange for bonding. The fact that a SB does not provide an adequate bond does not in and of itself outlaw its use with copper.


    Yep, and replacing or installing single wall vent where double or triple wall vent should be installed is much ado about nothing too - as you say, you can't idiot proof the world ... right?

    How many fires is acceptable to you?

    How many electrical shocks or electrocutions is acceptable to you?

    Seriously? Those materials ALL carry the responsibility of the installer. Single walled pipe is unlisted with NO installation instructions. Don't talk down to me about how many fires or personal injuries are acceptable. In a perfect world (Heaven), there are none. However, we live on planet earth where things do go wrong and people do make poor choices. I see a lot of copper pipe systems where it is not properly bonded at a number of points from the appliances to the WH to the meter. Why don't we just outlaw copper pipe anyway? You cannot trust people to bond it properly even with sweated valves and joints. Or, better yet, just eradicate those pesky electrical appliances that are the root of the problem in the first place. Heck, if you live off the grid, I guess that's the only case where these fittings should be allowed. Triple walled vent? Who makes that, much less uses it and for what? Provide substantiation please.

    How many people have been killed or seriously injured by SB fittings? Do you seriously want to compare them with venting failures which DO have significant rates of death, injury and fire? There is no comparison. You're all worked up again on one of your crusades. Please report back to us when you have heard from the CPSC and provide a copy of your evidence of actual losses and injuries.

    If we're going to idiot-proof the world, the most effective way to do that is to eradicate the idiots. In the meantime, people are responsible for themselves. Homeowners are responsible to hire qualified, reputable contractors who pull permits to be inspected by qualified inspectors to take sufficient time to properly inspect work, etc., etc. but the reality is, that happens very rarely. Homeowners are allowed to make certain repairs and improvements on their own in a lot of cases and jurisdictions. What do you want-- total state control of every minute detail of our lives because we're too stupid to fend for ourselves? We see how competent the government is at running things.

    There is a difference between adopting and complying with codes and standards versus absolute control over people's lives. I've never seen a single structure in my life that met the local codes 100%--have you? According to your logic, we should tear down every structure in the world and start over.

    It is all "much ado about nothing" ... to the point where YOU are not concerned about it - BUT, when it is something YOU are concerned about ... it is much ado about a big deal - does't work that way in real life ... just because it is not something that YOU are concerned about does NOT make it "much ado about nothing".

    Don't put words in my mouth Jerry. There is a Huge difference between being 'concerned' about an issue and being paranoid. I am cognizant of the issue and address it as I encounter it as I feel appropriate. However, it's none of your darned business how and what I do anymore than it is of mine to tell you how to run your life. I pick and choose things to get more aggresively concerned about as the probability of damage or injury along with the severity of that injury escalates. I use reason to guide my life and actions. You ought to try it for a change.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth Jerry.
    But you can put words and/or implications in my mouth?

    YOU speak from your experience and knowledge and I speak from my experience and knowledge.

    Saying/implying that bonding is for plastic piping is incredulous. Saying/implying that breaking the electrical continuity of copper piping is much ado about nothing is also incredulous.

    That's why I compared it to something you have great knowledge in and would not accept in any way - but you missed that comparison too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I want to piss in this contest too

    I think the real issue is , where you take a copper system and put a shark bite fitting (^^^) in the copper line you create a semi insulated line that may or may not be bonded, this will lead no only to a potential of electrical shock but also to corrosion as often occurs with dissimilar metals.

    The problem Shark bite has is they are not really educating the public as much as they should be - refering to local codes in their lititure is a bit on the weak side. They really should be addressing the issue of grounding/bonding at the point of sale in Home Depot. lowes - Local hardware store. I have used them mostly in Hotwater installations but those have direct grounds , also many of the hotwater heaters I replace have circulator pumps and mixing valves which are soldered in place.

    But it really is about changing the properties (elecrically) which are a cause for concern. Yes this is not about a pex system this about copper systems that are all ready grounded,

    Now - My second rant is - Sharke Bite does not really make it clear on displays these fittings are for use with water only - I have no clue if they are rated for any other use but I can see some handyman clown try to use them for gas - not sure they would be leak tight or if the seals are rated for gas use (never looked it up) but you never know what people might do


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I received this yesterday (01-06-2015) in response to my inquiry about the current status of SharkBite fittings used on copper water piping systems and their continuity for bonding purposes:

    Jerry,


    We still currently have done no testing here in the US to approve them as being electrically continuous. We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings to keep the ground continuity of copper pipe.


    The copper pipe makes contact with the pipe stop inside the brass fitting, so the fitting most likely does conduct the electricity and ground through the fitting, but not to a very large extent.


    Thanks,


    Nick Newlin


    Reliance Worldwide Corporation
    Office of Sales & Technical Support
    Home of SharkBite & Cash Acme Products
    2727 Paces Ferry Road
    Building Two, Suite 1800
    Atlanta, GA 30339
    FAQ's - SharkBite
    techsupport@rwc.com

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Thanks Jerry for the effort and follow up. Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf
    The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned. As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.
    Thanks again for the effort.

    Nick Newlin seems to be the one at SB that deals with this question. He had answered the same question on bonding/grounding in another forum back in March 2013. But I do wonder where you are to see a reference to grounding/bonding when using the SB fitting. This was what was posted:
    "Just got a reply from Sharkbite

    John,

    Our SharkBite fittings will not conduct electricity as copper will. The stainless steel teeth and EPDM rubber O-ring compromise this. Please install a jumper if necessary.

    Regards,

    Nick Newlin"

    In Jerry's reply Nick Newlin said:"...We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings..." Which really does beg the question of where do they state their recommendations.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 01-07-2015 at 01:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Garry,

    The problem ... er ... reason, as I see it, is that SharkBite fittings are made for plumbers to install - and how many plumbers know much, if anything, about bonding requirements (until they receive a shock from lack of bonding).

    It is the electrical contractors who place *one* clamp on a copper pipe and bond to it, and they are not aware of anything about the SharkBite fittings ... because the SharkBite fittings are for plumbers.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf
    The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.
    As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.

    I have used these many times in the last year (great for emergency repairs) - That said ... I don't recall anything about the need to put a grounding jumper across the fitting - and I read the directions in depth that came with the fitting and then some. So I am surprised they even addressed that


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    This really is a big deal for Reliance Corp., I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination. Without any consumer warning label, Reliance could be in a world of hurt....just think of the potential liability they are already exposed to with millions already installed by unknowing consumers. I smell Class Action...


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    This is from the UK.

    http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf

    page 8
    The cartridge ring is manufactured from 304 stainless steel to provide guaranteed electrical continuity.

    Page 31
    SharkBite fittings are TRaC certified to provide electrical continuity when used with Copper or Carbon Steel pipe with the exception of 10mm fittings.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    This is from the UK.
    As you said, that "is from the UK".

    They apparently had testing done on the fittings made for the UK, but the fittings are different (at least in sizes, metric versus inch), and I fully anticipated that their reply to my inquiry for an update from my 2011 information was going to be their testing and listing for electrical continuity ... but it was just the opposite - install a bonding jumper over each SharkBite fitting to ensure electrical continuity for bonding.

    I have not yet seen an entire water piping system (of any type, including copper) installed with the SharkBite fittings, typically what I see them used for is water heater replacements, and it is easy to bond across the two or three SharkBite fittings right at the water heater.

    Yes, it would be a major problem for SharkBite fittings used on a concealed plumbing system because ALL of the points of attachment of the bonding jumpers ARE REQUIRED to be accessible ... yeppers, big problem there for a piping system which was intended to be concealed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination.

    He IS from "Technical & Inside Sales Support", so I would say, yes, he has that authority.

    I received this today after asking to make sure I could pass the information on: (I held off posting his first email last night and this morning until I received the email below).

    Hey Jerry,


    You may release the information and use it where needed.


    Thanks,


    Nick Newlin
    Technical & Inside Sales Support
    Reliance Worldwide Corporation| Office of Sales & Customer Support
    2727 Paces Ferry Road | Building Two, Suite 1800 | Atlanta, Georgia 30339
    Phone: 1-770-863-4081| Fax: 1-770-435-7369
    Email: Nick.Newlin@cashacme.com

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    I have a newsletter out on it (and other newsletters about other issues): Inspectors’ Field Comments Newsletter©

    These newsletters are geared toward the 2008 NEC and Florida codes (which are based on the ICC codes) - these newsletters are sent to building officials, inspectors, plans examiners, and some architects and engineers around the Florida.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Thanks JP. Good info.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I received this yesterday (01-06-2015) in response to my inquiry about the current status of SharkBite fittings used on copper water piping systems and their continuity for bonding purposes:

    Jerry,


    We still currently have done no testing here in the US to approve them as being electrically continuous. We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings to keep the ground continuity of copper pipe.


    The copper pipe makes contact with the pipe stop inside the brass fitting, so the fitting most likely does conduct the electricity and ground through the fitting, but not to a very large extent.


    Thanks,


    Nick Newlin


    Reliance Worldwide Corporation
    Office of Sales & Technical Support
    Home of SharkBite & Cash Acme Products
    2727 Paces Ferry Road
    Building Two, Suite 1800
    Atlanta, GA 30339
    FAQ's - SharkBite
    techsupport@rwc.com
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Thanks Jerry for the effort and follow up. Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf
    The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned. As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.
    Thanks again for the effort.

    Nick Newlin seems to be the one at SB that deals with this question. He had answered the same question on bonding/grounding in another forum back in March 2013. But I do wonder where you are to see a reference to grounding/bonding when using the SB fitting. This was what was posted:
    "Just got a reply from Sharkbite

    John,

    Our SharkBite fittings will not conduct electricity as copper will. The stainless steel teeth and EPDM rubber O-ring compromise this. Please install a jumper if necessary.

    Regards,

    Nick Newlin"

    In Jerry's reply Nick Newlin said:"...We always recommend using a jumper when installing our SharkBite fittings..." Which really does beg the question of where do they state their recommendations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    This really is a big deal for Reliance Corp., I wonder if Nick has the authority to make this kind of determination. Without any consumer warning label, Reliance could be in a world of hurt....just think of the potential liability they are already exposed to with millions already installed by unknowing consumers. I smell Class Action...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Doane View Post
    Seems like it is a little odd that their (SB) instructions have no mention of bonding. http://www.sharkbite.com/sharkbite/w...rctns_2014.pdf
    The fact that you had to ask for the SB position makes one wounder what else is not mentioned.
    As always it is great to have someone from the company take/state a position.

    I have used these many times in the last year (great for emergency repairs) - That said ... I don't recall anything about the need to put a grounding jumper across the fitting - and I read the directions in depth that came with the fitting and then some. So I am surprised they even addressed that
    Ira,Dwight,
    page 2 last bullet points states consult your locale building codes for specific applications.
    ( no go on a Class Action or any $$$ )

    The Fitting have been tested in UK and Approved.If the Company doesn't feel the need to pay for this Testing again for the United States Market and Trust me the Lawyers have covered all the bases for any potential Companty liability it's a simple business decision.

    Any Liability Exposure would be with the Installer.
    Proving Damages ( other than they weren't "Code Approved???) good luck.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    The Fitting have been tested in UK and Approved.If the Company doesn't feel the need to pay for this Testing again for the United States Market and Trust me the Lawyers have covered all the bases for any potential Companty liability it's a simple business decision.

    Any Liability Exposure would be with the Installer.
    Proving Damages ( other than they weren't "Code Approved???) good luck.
    SharkBite fittings have been tested and approved for "electrical continuity" for the *UK market*.

    SharkBite fittings have NOT been tested or approved for "electrical continuity" for the USA market, and, apparently, the company DOES NOT feel that the UK approval is good for the USA market ... if the company thought that, then they WOULD NOT say to bond over each SharkBite fitting - but they did say to do precisely that.

    While the installer would be names on the list of defendants ... you can rest assured that SharkBite (CASH ACME and Reliance Worldwide) would be on that list too (and probably at the top of the list of defendants as they are the "deep pockets" attorneys look for).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    SharkBite fittings have been tested and approved for "electrical continuity" for the *UK market*.

    SharkBite fittings have NOT been tested or approved for "electrical continuity" for the USA market, and, apparently, the company DOES NOT feel that the UK approval is good for the USA market ... if the company thought that, then they WOULD NOT say to bond over each SharkBite fitting - but they did say to do precisely that.

    While the installer would be names on the list of defendants ... you can rest assured that SharkBite (CASH ACME and Reliance Worldwide) would be on that list too (and probably at the top of the list of defendants as they are the "deep pockets" attorneys look for).
    As we all know anyone may "Sue" another for pretty much anything. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/us...case.html?_r=0

    Because someone may sue doesn't mean Plaintiff will prevail.

    I didn't say "The Company thinks UK Approval is Good in US just they decided not to go to the expense to get another Approval for the United States Market.aka Business Decision.

    Just What are these perceived damages you think this product that tells the installer to always check with locale codes for specific application is liable for?

    A Proven Defect? Or a Locale Code Violation?

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    When the SharkBite rep on direct questioning states that you need a jumper but the installation instructions have no mention of using a jumper for bonding/grounding continuity there does seem to be a dichotomy.

    Sharkbite does not appear to want the issue in the public view. Stating "Always consult with local plumbing codes concerning specific applications" is the lawyers end run around speaking the bottom line truth.

    Possibly the question was worded wrong. Maybe the question should have been; "Why does Sharkbite not state that a jumper is needed to maintain continuity of the grounding system? Granted they might get defensive and just not respond at all which would not surprise me.

    In a country that has warnings posted on lawn mower decks to not place you hands under the deck while the mower is running and signs that hot coffee is hot, you would expect that the need for a jumper would be stated. Jeeees Sharkbite lists just about everything else in their instructions and applications. Aaaaaaaah go figure... or maybe I am just missing something


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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Just What are these perceived damages you think this product that tells the installer to always check with locale codes for specific application is liable for?

    A Proven Defect? Or a Locale Code Violation?
    The same ones resulting in lawsuits against CSST manufacturers.

    The same ones which resulted in lawsuits against drywall manufacturers.

    The same ones which result in lawsuits against car manufacturers.

    The same ones which ... the list is almost endless.

    Think, Billy, think - the manufacturer does not have to specify tell people something which ends up being the opposite to get into trouble ... all the manufacturer has to do is provide a product which turns out to have a defect/design flaw/etc. ... something called "merchantability", "implied warranty", and "implied warranty of merchantability".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    For all of the jailhouse lawyers here is a rhetorical question.

    Why does Sharkbite not instruct that a jumper be used as part of their installation video??? They break the continuity of the copper pipe using PEX and fittings but make no mention of replacing continuity, no mention of checking local code and no mention to refer to written instructions or anything else.

    How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite

    How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite1:40
    http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/how-to-repair-burst-pipe-frozen-pipe-repair-with-sharkbite/



  60. #60
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    For all of the jailhouse lawyers here is a rhetorical question.

    Why does Sharkbite not instruct that a jumper be used as part of their installation video??? They break the continuity of the copper pipe using PEX and fittings but make no mention of replacing continuity, no mention of checking local code and no mention to refer to written instructions or anything else.

    How to Repair Burst Pipe – Frozen Pipe Repair with SharkBite

    http://www.sharkbite.com/how-to/how-to-repair-burst-pipe-frozen-pipe-repair-with-sharkbite/
    Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  61. #61
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    This is from the UK.

    http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.co.uk/s...chr_201411.pdf

    page 8
    The cartridge ring is manufactured from 304 stainless steel to provide guaranteed electrical continuity.

    Page 31
    SharkBite fittings are TRaC certified to provide electrical continuity when used with Copper or Carbon Steel pipe with the exception of 10mm fittings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Think, Billy, think - the manufacturer does not have to specify tell people something which ends up being the opposite to get into trouble ... all the manufacturer has to do is provide a product which turns out to have a defect/design flaw/etc. ... something called "merchantability", "implied warranty", and "implied warranty of merchantability".
    I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  62. #62
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Because, as I said in a previous post, they are selling "plumbing" fittings and "bonding" is "electrical".
    I agree that they are myopic. They instruct on modifying the system but fail to inform consequences. Really think it would be hard to run away from responsibility to mention consequences of their instruction video..

    Maybe they need to get some of the YouTube posters to explain why they attempt cover themselves legally when they post How To videos.

    But then SB is from the land of "OZ" 1999 isn't it.


  63. #63
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    I guess the Electricity Generated in Europe is different than the Stuff we use in the Good Ole US of A.

    True - it is three phase with an accent


  64. #64
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Billy

    I agree with you. The Trac certification may have recognition in North America. The Sharkbite fittings in UK/Europe are the same materials as used in North America Sharkbite fittings.

    So is TRAC accepted in North America as it is in Europe where the electrical continuity of the fitting has been proven by the agency?


  65. #65
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    Default Re: Are Shark Bite fittings recommended by the Pros?

    Last night, a buddy tested the continuity of a SB connection on an installation in his own house. Result was zero continuity.

    Jerry's email from SB says that we should not expect continuity and now that we have that information, the default position going forward is (or should be) that SB installations don't provide adequate continuity. Frankly, the UK specs don't matter on our side of the pond since we now have SB's statement. In some installations, it doesn't matter, but where it does matter, we should note that in our reports.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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