Thread: water heaters and radiant heat

I was in a house today and i have no idea what all i am looking at.

First were two electric water heaters and i know i am new but shouldn't there be electrical wires in the top? I have never seen a setup like this.
$tmppic.jpg
Next is what appears to be the water heater for the radiant floors. Sadly i have never seen a water heater like this either . I included many pictures. I know that the TPR line in CPVC and that is not okay, i also know that the TPR lines are connected to the sewer line, this is also not okay. But what else am i looking at that is wrong? Also the wall of radiant.
DSCN6154.JPGDSCN6156.JPGDSCN6153.JPGDSCN6157.JPG

Lastly why is this what appears to be condensate line open? I noticed on the furnace condensate line an open pipe as well?
DSCN6155.JPG

Originally Posted by cory nystul

I was in a house today and i have no idea what all i am looking at.

That's okay, I don't know radiant heat either, but they are water heaters ...

First were two electric water heaters and i know i am new but shouldn't there be electrical wires in the top? I have never seen a setup like this.

I see wires connected with wire nuts - not connected properly, but I see wires and wire nuts. If those wires are not powering the water heater elements, the water heaters may be being used for their storage capacity only and the furnace is heating the water - could be.

While on the first photo ... I also see an expansion tank mounted from the side of a tee, that is an improper mounting of the expansion tank.

I know that the TPR line in CPVC and that is not okay, ...

Actually, CPVC is okay for use as the T&P discharge line.

i also know that the TPR lines are connected to the sewer line, this is also not okay.

You are correct there.

But what else am i looking at that is wrong? Also the wall of radiant.

The heating guys can address that, but that wall of radiant heat looks like circulation pumps for different zones.

Lastly why is this what appears to be condensate line open? I noticed on the furnace condensate line an open pipe as well?

I suspect that is a vent for the condensate drain line - but the heating guys can address that better than I can.

I just gave some starting points, the others will fill in the blanks.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I see wires connected with wire nuts - not connected properly, but I see wires and wire nuts. If those wires are not powering the water heater elements, the water heaters may be being used for their storage capacity only and the furnace is heating the water - could be.

While on the first photo ... I also see an expansion tank mounted from the side of a tee, that is an improper mounting of the expansion tank.

The wires noted on the two water heaters appeared to be low voltage wires such as thermostat wires. I must admit the whole thing thru me for a major loop.

I don't call it 'radiant heat' because lots of heating systems are radiant, maybe all of them.

The two tanks are storage tanks. Maybe they are connected to a solar water heating system. They may be backup heaters that were not needed.

You'll have to Google the large gas water heater. Just type in the model # and go.
The small red pump circulates heated water thru the loops. The square objects on each loop are valves controlled by thermostats. There usually is a thermostat for each zone, but sometimes one thermostat controls several zone valves.

To inspect that system, I would check the white box with the indicator panel. A green light 'on' indicates a loop is open, thermostat calling for heat. I will find a thermostat that is down low, turn it up, then go look at the panel to see if a new light came on. If you can't hear the circulation pump, put your hand on it and you will feel vibration when it is running. It should be running if a valve is open.
If you don't have an IR camera yet, use your IR thermometer or your hand to check for temperature rise in the various loops as they come open. If you turn all thermostats up together, the system will take a long time to heat all the zones. I prefer to test a couple, then turn them back down for quicker results. I suppose that doesn't test the capacity of the water heater, but I am not there to do a size calculation. I don't know the lengths of the loops.

Then disclaim the whole thing and point out that 90% of the system is hidden from a visual inspection.

Distinctly two systems. Polaris unit supplies radiant heat, and the other two tanks supply the hot water for the forced air heating system. That is not a furnace but what appears to be an air handler only.

The fact that there is gas for the radiant system makes me think that the other two tanks may be storage. Is there any solar panels on the roof? That would be a common setup for the twin tanks.

DISCLAIM< DISCLAIM my ass, your the ones that cause the lawsuits.
If you don'tknow what it is admit it to your client and tell them to get it insected by a pro.
A refund of fee may be required. Education is not free.

Originally Posted by Jim Robinson

The fact that there is gas for the radiant system makes me think that the other two tanks may be storage. Is there any solar panels on the roof? That would be a common setup for the twin tanks.

No solar panels were on the roof or property.

Originally Posted by wayne soper

DISCLAIM< DISCLAIM my ass, your the ones that cause the lawsuits.
If you don'tknow what it is admit it to your client and tell them to get it insected by a pro.
A refund of fee may be required. Education is not free.

Wayne it must be awesome to know EVERYTHING. Maybe if I study really really hard I can know everything about everything like you do.

Like I stated I plan to disclaim that this is unfamiliar to me. I have asked others in my area and they are unfamiliar with it as well. I am recommended to have it examined by a qualified licensed contractor that is more familiar with this setup.

I know that the majority of the people on here are great people and more knowledgeable and will give great advise. I do want to learn, if you have suggestions I would love to learn.

Originally Posted by wayne soper

DISCLAIM< DISCLAIM my ass, your the ones that cause the lawsuits.
If you don't know what it is admit it to your client and tell them to get it inspected by a pro.
A refund of fee may be required. Education is not free.

Tell clients you will research the item and get back to them on it. Then get info here and wherever. Ask your mentor.
Send the clients an addendum to the report.
Disclaim the sections that are not accessible for inspection - the water lines hidden under the flooring.

Cory , No one can know everything and like someone else said - you might have to get someone else in.

I am going to take a stab at the two tanks that look like water heaters. I have seen these used where they are the heat ex-changer - no solar panels right ? then there might be a ground water loop system or a remote solar system (Mother Earth News features one of these a year or so).

How can I tell - Water heaters have three pipes Water in / out / Relief

Now look carefully you have 5 pipes , water in/out/relief then you have two more pipes which are your liquid heat source in/out

No matter what - you really need to get someone in who knows something about these systems - the technology is not new, but it is when it comes to homes and not much literature is out there. This might be as much fun as finding out how a coal fired steam system is OK - when was the last time anyone saw one of those complete with manual shovel

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Distinctly two systems. Polaris unit supplies radiant heat, and the other two tanks supply the hot water for the forced air heating system. That is not a furnace but what appears to be an air handler only.

Agree.

The two tanks are to increase hot water storage for the demands of the hydronic system. It looks a bit like a poor man's method to supply enough hot water. Cheaper than an adequate boiler. The air handler is for the AC.

That's a complicated system. It's okay to tell your clients that this is something unusual, and you need to do some research. I frequently tell clients that after many years, I still see things that I've never seen. I suspect Soper got up on the grumpy side of his bed.

Lon,

Me too.

When I see a complex system which is beyond my abilities or scope of a proper inspection because of the complexity I always defer to a licenced HVAC or the company which installed the system.

Never had a disgruntled client as a result.

Originally Posted by cory nystul

Wayne it must be awesome to know EVERYTHING. Maybe if I study really really hard I can know everything about everything like you do.

Like I stated I plan to disclaim that this is unfamiliar to me. I have asked others in my area and they are unfamiliar with it as well. I am recommended to have it examined by a qualified licensed contractor that is more familiar with this setup.

I know that the majority of the people on here are great people and more knowledgeable and will give great advise. I do want to learn, if you have suggestions I would love to learn.

never said I know everything, and I was not directing the disclaim thing at you, just inspectors as a whole that think it's a problem solver. I have many times done exactly as I suggested and made sure I learned from it.
My apologies if you misunderstood, I just didn't see anyone else giving you the right advise.

Some good advice here. I saw one similar a few months ago, can't remember the address or I'd add a photo. Zone valve board and gas water heater/boiler looked very similar, and there was one large water heater being used as just a storage tank. As I recall the gas water heater was 100,000 Btu, much more than a typical water heater.

Dwight is right- I also noticed the extra lines at the two tanks. If the water heaters were connected (eg heating) the top lines are usually domestic water supply and the side lines go to the heat exchanger, as in an Apollo heating system. Perhaps the pump by the gas water heater is pumping hot water into the two tanks so they are being used as a heat exchanger. The radiant heat has many pumps by all the zone valves.

I've been inspecting 22 years and still find things I can't fully explain. I'm not embarrassed to say this is a unique system and you need to have an hvac contractor check it. My comment says try to find out the installing contractor and use him if possible, and make sure you (my client) are there so he can explain it to you.

Originally Posted by Randy West

My comment says try to find out the installing contractor and use him if possible, and make sure you (my client) are there so he can explain it to you.

Not a bad idea, but I would recommend calling the best hydronic guy you know to evaluate it because the original installer might not have done it to the best design.

It looks to me like the two white tanks are indirect water heaters. Hot water from the Polaris water heater indirectly heats the water in tanks (lines at bottom of tanks) and hot water out at top in a parallel set up. I see this a lot but most of the time the hot water for the radiant and indirect water heaters is supplied by a boiler which is a much more efficient way of producing hot water. I still don't get why there is what looks like electric coils on the sides of the Richmond water heaters. This looks like a real handy man special but the radiant wall, zones and circulating pumps look professionally done. I agree with Raymond that this is an air handler with hot water heat exchanger and coil for cooling.

wait a minute--are they using pex pipe for this radiant heat ??

cvf

Is the home owner around to ask about the systems? Some owners can be very knowledgeable, some not so much, but they can help...sometimes.

Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET

wait a minute--are they using pex pipe for this radiant heat ??

cvf

Charlie, The one I did yesterday had Polybutylene for the radiant supply piping.

tom

are yOu sure you a talking about radaint floor or ceiling heat -poly and pex tubing are not rated for that kind of heat--poly leaks with cold water

cvf

tom

I see a furnace in your picture--where is the heat source for the radiant heat usually that is a
boiler-- I think you have a pex pipe water distribution system in house and a forced air heat system please correct me on this.

cvf

Focus on what you do not see!

1.) No inspection tag by any authority
2.) No name splashing or identity of the installler

Now think why this is and now you have a start for your report.

Ronald

what are you saying ?

cvf

cory

was there solar panels on house

cvf

Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET

tom

I see a furnace in your picture--where is the heat source for the radiant heat usually that is a
boiler-- I think you have a pex pipe water distribution system in house and a forced air heat system please correct me on this.

cvf

I've never seen a water distribution system with 7 Grundfos pumps. Those have to be zones for a heating system. And some of those Polaris water heaters are almost boilers, eg 130,000 Btu (and cost as much as a boiler too!).

Re: water heaters and radiant heat

Originally Posted by Randy West
My comment says try to find out the installing contractor and use him if possible, and make sure you (my client) are there so he can explain it to you.



Not a bad idea, but I would recommend calling the best hydronic guy you know to evaluate it because the original installer might not have done it to the best design.

Your "not a bad idea" is not a bad idea. I do that if I can. I'm in a wittle village in northern AZ. I know an old hvac guy who's an expert on 75 year old boilers. And I know a newer guy who's up on heat pumps. But I don't think we have a 'best hydronic guy'. I don't think we have any 'hydronic guy'. No local retailer for Polaris. Good point about getting a second point of view, especially if the installation is suspect. I figured the installing contractor would know more than using the dartboard method.

Found the report and photos. The water heater was 130,000 Btu

Charlie, This was not my picture and yes I was sure it was a radiant heating (in floor) system with Polybutylene piping. For those following thread I was talking about a house I inspected a couple days ago.

What I was saying was that if this was an airplane you would label it "experimental". Until you find the original installing contractor and get the ASHRAE heat loss/heat gain calculations and Delta T design parameters the best you could call it would be a "work in progress" until such numbers are generated. That there is no industry standard the best you can look for is best installation practices.
You can't guarantee the useful life left in any of the water tanks or pumps much less what design temperature limitations are. Let someone else make those guarantees. In northern Ohio, you would be expected to be living in a "thermos" bottle with a small footprint to have a workable system.

Originally Posted by Ronald Betschman CFDI,CML

What I was saying was that if this was an airplane you would label it "experimental". Until you find the original installing contractor and get the ASHRAE heat loss/heat gain calculations and Delta T design parameters the best you could call it would be a "work in progress" until such numbers are generated. That there is no industry standard the best you can look for is best installation practices.
You can't guarantee the useful life left in any of the water tanks or pumps much less what design temperature limitations are. Let someone else make those guarantees. In northern Ohio, you would be expected to be living in a "thermos" bottle with a small footprint to have a workable system.

Ronald also said:

Focus on what you do not see!

1.) No inspection tag by any authority
2.) No name splashing or identity of the installler

Now think why this is and now you have a start for your report.




Except in electrical panels, I never see an inspection tag by any authority (except on brand new homes). And I seldom see 'name splashing'. There are a couple electricians that write their name with permanent marker on a panel, and I have seen plumbers write on a water heater (usually a replacement). I very rarely see the installers name on a furnace or heating system. These are not red flags in my area.

I have never recommended heat loss or Delta T calculations. If I see a 75,000 Btu furnace in a 2000 sf home, or one small supply vent in a very large room, I just say this is very small for our area and recommend a hvac contractor. I have disclosures for in floor radiant, but I have seen plenty so don't consider them 'experimental'. Don't you have a "this is not a technically exhaustive inspection" comment in your agreement? I'm not trying to be a jerk (of course some Realtors and my wife say I don't have to try, I'm a natural). But if I wanted to see or recommended finding out the heat gain calculations, what about the sizing calculation for the gas lines, and the plans or engineers report for the glu-lam beams?

Found this online about Polaris water heater:
Polaris Water Heater for Radiant Heating
Looks like a good replacement for boiler in this type of system. Thank you Randy!! Sometimes the "one large water heater being used as just a storage tank" is used as a tempering tank. One I did a few weeks back the water from well was so cold that's what they were using it for. It's fun to try and figure out what's going on here but we really don't have enough info to be sure. I have a good relationship with different contractors and they will help me out when needed.

Originally Posted by Ronald Betschman CFDI,CML

Focus on what you do not see!

1.) No inspection tag by any authority
2.) No name splashing or identity of the installler

Now think why this is and now you have a start for your report.

I disagree. You can only focus on what you can see. You can only speculate on what you can't see. Certainly, that speculation is based on the visible components but must be limited. You can't base your report on what you can't see.

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

Found this online about Polaris water heater:
Polaris Water Heater for Radiant Heating
Looks like a good replacement for boiler in this type of system. .

At three grand and change they are certainly less than a comparable boiler. I didn't find warranty information at their website and I wonder what their life is. Still, even if you replace one every 12 to 15 years, they may be a better value than a traditional boiler.

I don't see enough information to confirm my earlier description of being a poor man's system. It may be a viable lower cost alternative.

Originally Posted by Tom Rees

Found this online about Polaris water heater:
Polaris Water Heater for Radiant Heating
Looks like a good replacement for boiler in this type of system. Thank you Randy!! Sometimes the "one large water heater being used as just a storage tank" is used as a tempering tank. One I did a few weeks back the water from well was so cold that's what they were using it for. It's fun to try and figure out what's going on here but we really don't have enough info to be sure. I have a good relationship with different contractors and they will help me out when needed.

Thank you, Tom. That house was on a well, and I remember I could not figure out why they needed that storage tank. I bet it was a 'tempering tank', as you described.

I'm not ashamed to not know something. I saw some weird hepa type filter hanging from a garage ceiling several months ago. It also had two 20 x 20 filters, and ducts going into the ceiling, but was not connected to the central furnace that I could see. I took a photo and said (slightly more professionally than this): "beats the heck out of me. If you find out please let me know so I can impress my clients if I ever see one again."

Clients called and said they asked the seller, and it was a hepa filter for the two kids rooms who had asthma. It came on at night and filtered the air in their rooms only. Since it was installed when the home was built I could not see where the ducts went. But my clients loved my 'disclosure' in their report.

Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET

tom

I see a furnace in your picture--where is the heat source for the radiant heat usually that is a
boiler-- I think you have a pex pipe water distribution system in house and a forced air heat system please correct me on this.

cvf

Hello Charlie. I wasn't there but recognize the system as in-floor hydronic heating with PEX pipe, perfectly acceptable in this area. PEX in the concrete slab, or PEX tucked up between floor joists, it is OK. PolyB is worrisome but I've come across that too.

Re the air handler, it could simply be AC. I don't see plumbing for water heating there.

The big gas water heater is the primary heat source. Some of us believe the Polaris heater is supplying domestic HW as well as the floor heat, using those two electric water heaters for storage. Need more info to confirm.

OP already said no solar.

Try this scenario on for size.

Contractor 1 was there under house construction and did a whiz bang up job installing piping in the floor and the home owner in love with the idea of low heating costs.
Contractor 1 is a hero-today!

After living in the home for a couple of heating seasons the home owners are not so in love with ambient temperature dipping down when the hubby comes home and needs that "hot shower" now with no compromises. Heat water demand is diverted to the long shower and the ambient temperature drops and is slow to recover after the shower is done.

Contractor 2 comes along and solves that problem by installing two more heaters that will have a fast recovery to endure the long shower time and the ambient temperature may drop just a little can be boosted quickly after the on demand hot water is diverted to home heating. Now Contractor 2 is a hero. You as an inspector give a big thumbs up as the system works the way the last owners were content with.

The new owners have different expectations and aren't use to the trade offs of low energy costs vs. heating demands after all there are use to a hot air system where the women can stand on a hot air register until the scorched air burns the hair off her legs- now she is warm! They are just sure you have no idea that the system doesn't make them happy. You gave the big thumbs up and now you can join in writing a new verse to the the hydronics heating blues as your insurer doles out the money to make the new owners deliriously happy!

Be smart and pass on that !