Thread: Need a little help here

Today's inspection of newly installed plumbing under a hall bathroom just didn't look right. Plumbing just isn't my strong suit.
Not sure of the slope from the tub drain at the left to the drain line where the toilet appears to be able to run back to the tub trap. The P trap for the tub is more than 24 inches from the tub. The sink drain comes in at the right of the picture and kitchen comes through wall and connects at top of sewer line. They had to dig a hole in the dirt to get the tub trap as low as it is. Just looks to me like whatever is flushed down the toilet can head toward the tub trap and that just can't be correct.

You are correct, IMO. Plumbing may not be your strong suit but your opinion trumps what Billy Bob did there.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

Not sure of the slope from the tub drain at the left to the drain line where the toilet appears to be able to run back to the tub trap.

I couldn't find a good horizontal reference point in the photo due to the angles of everything, but it looks like some of the piping *might* be reverse sloped ... *however* ... without having put a level on the piping to find out if it actually was ... I would not call that out. BUT ... I would include that in my write up something to the effect of 'correct blah, blah, and blah, and verify proper required slope of all piping' - that is a good way to include and cover something you suspect but did not actually check (and your crawlspace gear will now likely include an additional item: a torpedo level ).

The P trap for the tub is more than 24 inches from the tub.

What is the clearance (distance) between the crawlspace floor and the bottom of the floor joists? And what is the size of the floor joists? Another tool gets put into the crawlspace gear if not already in there: a tape measure.

The distance would be from the bottom of the tub to the weir or the trap, not to the inlet of the trap or to the bottom of the trap - I am presuming that you measured the distance as being more than 24 inches.

Looks like the piping is not properly supported nor is it fully bedded on the soil (which would be the support if it was).

Additionally, was it properly vented?

Not any clean-outs in sight...

It was vented properly and the clean outs were right outside about 4 feet away.
I'll be going back under this weekend and will take my "Jerry" bag full of goodies to make sure the slope is going the right direction and that trap is really within 24 inches from the floor. Hope I can get all that stuff under there with me. The crawl hole they cut was only big enough for me to squirm through. Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

I'll be going back under this weekend and will take my "Jerry" bag full of goodies to make sure the slope is going the right direction and that trap is really within 24 inches from the floor. Hope I can get all that stuff under there with me. The crawl hole they cut was only big enough for me to squirm through. Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.

Two easy ways ... er ... correct that ... there are no "easy ways" to inspect crawlspaces ... ... shove your bag around in front of your or tie a thin rope to it and drag it along with you.

You know an opening is tight when you emerge and your client's wife is standing there watching you squirm your way out, and then she says "Now I now what giving birth must look like, there was no way you were going to come out of that small opening ... but you did."

That opening was one block wide (16") and one block high (8"), as I recall ... I do remember that I was sucking it in and scraping my coveralls on all 4 sides, and that I could not make it through with my hat on, and that the only way through was to go through one arm first and the other one by my side because that allowed my shoulders to tilt and let me fit through.

That was one comment I have never forgotten.

[QUOTE=Gary Burnett;257725]It was vented properly and the clean outs were right outside about 4 feet away.

There are several changes in direction of the waste lines shown in the pics, which should have their own clean-out e.g. The 90 deg elbow from verticle drop to horizontal line and at the trap. Which, being a welded trap versus slip fitting, would not serve as a clean-out (which otherwise might be approved in some jurisdictions). It would be virtually impossible to snake all lines from an outside clean-out for this configuration even though it may be only 4' away.

Thanks Ian,
I'll write up the lack of clean outs along with the improper slope from the tub which was 2 1/2 feet and slope was only about 1/4" and no slope on the drain from the toilet drain to main. The sink did have a proper slope and the distance from the p trap to the tub drain was right at 24 1/2 inches. I took my 2 ft level under with me and it even made it back. The crawl space hole was 17" x 14" and 17" under the floor joist. I wasn't like giving birth but I has to do a little squirming to get out from under there. They pumped the 3" of water out of the second crawl space under the kitchen and laundry room and now I'm wondering where the p trap is for the washer........wasn't in the crawl space......I bet they say it's behind the wall. This was an old 50's home that was stripped to the studs and had about 800 sq ft added. All new plumbing, electrical, mechanical & 70% structure.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

... improper slope from the tub which was 2 1/2 feet ..

I presume that is the height, but ... from where to where?
- From the 2012 IRC: (bold and underlining are mine)
- - P3201.6 Number of fixtures per trap.
- - - Each plumbing fixture shall be separately trapped by a water seal trap. The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm) and the horizontal distance shall not exceed 30 inches (762 mm) measured from the center line of the fixture outlet to the centerline of the inlet of the trap. The height of a clothes washer standpipe above a trap shall conform to Section P2706.2. Fixtures shall not be double trapped.
- - - - Exceptions:
- - - - - 1. Fixtures that have integral traps.
- - - - - 2. A single trap shall be permitted to serve two or three like fixtures limited to kitchen sinks, laundry tubs and lavatories. Such fixtures shall be adjacent to each other and located in the same room with a continuous waste arrangement. The trap shall be installed at the center fixture where three fixtures are installed. Common trapped fixture outlets shall be not more than 30 inches (762 mm) apart.
- - - - - 3. Connection of a laundry tray waste line into a standpipe for the automatic clothes-washer drain shall be permitted in accordance with Section P2706.2.1.

Measured as I show in the attached annotated photo.

[quote] ... and slope was only about 1/4" ... /[quote]

The slope only needs to be 1/4" (less for larger sizes of pipes).

... and no slope on the drain from the toilet drain to main.

Yep, that's not good.

... and the distance from the p trap to the tub drain was right at 24 1/2 inches.

Oops ... I thought that was your " 2 1/2 feet " measurement??? I was - am - confused ... anyway, the drawing shows where to measure from-to.

The trip was well worth the effort, wasn't it?

Jerry,
I guess I should have made it a little clearer that I was talking about the slope on the horizontal line. I was under the impression it has to be 1/4 inch per foot unless it's a 3 or 4 inch pipe. Your picture was the 2ft 1/2 inch to the trap. I can forgive a half inch on that one but the horizontal slopes won't allow the solids in the drain to properly move. I did find it amazing that it sure looked a lot longer than 2 feet when you are lying on your belly. The trip was worth it and I also had to check to see if they had supported one beam where the pier wasn't touching and if they had cleared the wood debris from the crawl space. Looked like the other guys can't fit through the hole!!

The large horizontal line to the main looked pretty level to me!

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

I was under the impression it has to be 1/4 inch per foot unless it's a 3 or 4 inch pipe. Your picture was the 2ft 1/2 inch to the trap. I can forgive a half inch on that one ...

Yes, the minimum slope is:
- From the 2012 IRC:
- - P3005.3 Horizontal drainage piping slope.
- - - Horizontal drainage piping shall be installed in uniform alignment at uniform slopes not less than 1/4 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) for 2 1/2 inch (64 mm) diameter and less, and not less than 1/8 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (1-percent slope) for diameters of 3 inches (76 mm) or more.

Agreed, that 1/2" extra past the 24" is nothing, especially when you may not be able to accurately measure the height (due to the floor being in the way). Even measuring 25" inches in a condition like that if not a problem due to the constraints of getting an accurate measurements and having to defend what you put in your report (how thick is the floor - 3/4" sub floor, 1/2", one or two layers, etc.).

... but the horizontal slopes won't allow the solids in the drain to properly move.

10-4

The large horizontal line to the main looked pretty level to me!

Sure does on your level.

In addition to my Smart Level, I also carry one of these ( Sears.com ), about like carrying the level you show but is precise in angle measurement, in degrees, in percent slope, and in inches per foot - you select the readout. Also shows the temperature upon being first being powered up. MUCH less expensive than a Smart Level too.

[QUOTE Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.[/QUOTE]

Another one to write up. ROFL. I have that problem at my house, I can barely squeeze through myself and will evenually neeed to repace the AC distribution box...hmmmm.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.[/QUOTE]

Another one to write up. ROFL. I have that problem at my house, I can barely squeeze through myself and will evenually neeed to repace the AC distribution box...hmmmm.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.[/QUOTE]

Another one to write up. ROFL. I have that problem at my house, I can barely squeeze through myself and will evenually neeed to repace the AC distribution box...hmmmm. I have looked around and it seems that an owner may have redone the hardwood floor in the hallway and removed the crawl space entrance. Maybe time to put a new one in somewhere? I hope I dont need to , I prefer my AC under the house rather than in the attic...but it is a LOT harder to service.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.[/QUOTE]

Another one to write up. ROFL. I have that problem at my house, I can barely squeeze through myself and will evenually neeed to repace the AC distribution box...hmmmm.

BTW, that is not the place to have a reverse slope at all. can you imagine when it plugs up?

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE Certainly isn't a 18" x 24" access.[/QUOTE]

Another one to write up. ROFL. I have that problem at my house, I can barely squeeze through myself and will evenually neeed to repace the AC distribution box...hmmmm.

BTW, that is not the place to have a reverse slope at all. can you imagine when it plugs up?

Why not remove the extra posts? I had 5 emails in my inbox informing me of your 5 updated posts.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Why not remove the extra posts? I had 5 emails in my inbox informing me of your 5 updated posts.

Those are automatically updated with the glitch in the software that Brian has worked on for some time.

Once the software does the updated posted, I suspect your email goes out - so even if he were to go back in with edit and removed the unwanted updates ... you would still be notified.

I started having that (those server errors and those data error messages) happen recently too.

The two ways I deal with it when I get the data server error are:
1)
- click the back arrow and let it reload
- click the back arrow again and let it reload
- click the reload page symbol and then it loads my post
2)
- sometimes it will do the updating double/triple post thing, so
- I click on edit and delete the double/triple information so only a single post remains

You are probably emailed each time it does one of those updates, I have mine set to not receive any email notifications, I just check the site now and then, a few times a day, or at night, depending on if I am in my office or out doing something else.