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  1. #1
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    Default Draft hood for water heater

    This is a vent connection for a gas water heater. It looks like when they replaced the heater it was too high to install a draft hood at the heater vent outlet, so they made a solid connection to heater and installed a draft vent hood (box with opening on bottom) in the middle of the run.

    Never saw this before. #1 Is it safe? #2 Is it legal?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Direct venting.
    Appears to be a gas water boiler as well.
    Are all vents connected entering a chimney?
    Typical.


    Types of venting.
    Atmospheric - with a draft hood.
    Direct vent - no draft hood.
    Power vent . mechanically assisted atop the water heater.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    I don't think this is legal. The draft hood provides means for mixing of room air into the combustion gases to create the proper dilution of the flue gases that is required for exhaust of the flue gases.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Morning Lon.
    I am not disputing that a draft hood is required when required in atmospheric NG venting of combustible gasses.

    IMO, the OP is hypothesizing a draft hood was present by saying the venting was lowered.
    However, if that is the case it would not meet the manufacturer's venting installation recommendations and raise heath and safety concerns.

    I should have rephrased my question.

    The image of the venting restricts what type of venting should be in place.
    Any others photos and angles?

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    The venting is incorrect, there is no draft hood, no 1 foot rise before the horizontal turn at the elbow, etc.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    If you look at the top of the WH case there does not appear to be manufactured holes to accept a draft hood.
    NG water heater top.JPG

    Although it does appear suspect for direct venting attachment there are no indications a draft hood was present.

    The below image is a RHEEM direct vent NG water heater.
    direct vent NG water heater.JPG

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    If you look at the top of the WH case there does not appear to be manufactured holes to accept a draft hood.
    NG water heater top.JPG

    Although it does appear suspect for direct venting attachment there are no indications a draft hood was present.

    The below image is a RHEEM direct vent NG water heater.
    direct vent NG water heater.JPG
    In which case, and as I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The venting is incorrect ...
    A direct vent does not use a Type B gas vent.

    The question of 'how much and what is wrong with the venting' cannot be fully answered without additional information: what type of water heater is it (natural draft, direct vent, fan-assisted, etc; what manufacturer; model; etc.

    Showing us a photo as was shown results is suppositions as to what "might" be wrong ... with what the commenter "sees" in the photos.

    Rules of thumb (as is a common term):
    - 1) take photos of the nameplate, making sure to get the manufacturer, the model number, size, btu/watts rating, date of manufacture, etc.
    - 2) take close photos and distance photos to show what is being looked at and the what the entire picture is like
    - with digital cameras, there is no such thing as taking 'too many' photos - there is no cost involved, once back at your office an after the report is finished, the photos you don't want can be deleted ... poof! ... and they are gone.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    In which case, and as I said:



    A direct vent does not use a Type B gas vent.
    I was not implying it did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The question of 'how much and what is wrong with the venting' cannot be fully answered without additional information: what type of water heater is it (natural draft, direct vent, fan-assisted, etc; what manufacturer; model; etc.
    I concur. I mentioned the manufacturer installation and venting methods are required.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Showing us a photo as was shown results is suppositions as to what "might" be wrong ... with what the commenter "sees" in the photos.
    It also supports the suppositions of correct installations. The some may agree while other not rule.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rules of thumb (as is a common term):
    - 1) take photos of the nameplate, making sure to get the manufacturer, the model number, size, btu/watts rating, date of manufacture, etc.
    - 2) take close photos and distance photos to show what is being looked at and the what the entire picture is like
    - with digital cameras, there is no such thing as taking 'too many' photos - there is no cost involved, once back at your office an after the report is finished, the photos you don't want can be deleted ... poof! ... and they are gone.
    I concur. Rules of thumb should drive an assessment.
    It would be useful to have the manufacturer's name, model number and serial number.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I was not implying it did.




    I concur. I mentioned the manufacturer installation and venting methods are required.



    It also supports the suppositions of correct installations. The some may agree while other not rule.



    I concur. Rules of thumb should drive an assessment.
    It would be useful to have the manufacturer's name, model number and serial number.
    Here's the nameplate data - nothing special - run of the mill bradford white.
    Also, here's what I was trying to describe as the draft hood (device). it is a metal box in the middle of the vent pipe with the bottom of the box open to the room.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Direct venting.

    Types of venting.
    Atmospheric - with a draft hood.
    Direct vent - no draft hood.
    Power vent . mechanically assisted atop the water heater.
    This is NOT what Direct Vent means. If your appliance is rated for atmospheric venting (i.e. barometric damper, or draft hood), you can't just take it outdoors "directly", and you definitely can't do so with a big uncontrolled hole in the venting system. Definition from IRC:
    Direct-Vent Appliance: A fuel-burning appliance with a sealed combustion system that draws all air for combustion from the outside atmosphere and discharges all flue gases to the outside atmosphere."

    When in doubt check appliance specs/installation instructions.


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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    Here's the nameplate data - nothing special - run of the mill bradford white.
    Also, here's what I was trying to describe as the draft hood (device). it is a metal box in the middle of the vent pipe with the bottom of the box open to the room.
    Here is a PDF from Bradford White for their Gas fired water heaters.
    http://www.bradfordwhite.com/sites/d...-44219-00G.pdf

    2006.
    10 YEARS OLD.

    12" inch vertical rise is required.
    The vent pipe looks disconnected at the base.

    Bradford White manufactures a DIRECT-VENT SERIES.
    I am writing 2 reports.
    others will likely chimney in.

    Draft hoods.
    Water heater draft hooddrafy hood water heater.JPGBoiler draft hood draft hood large.JPG

    The galvanized box in the vent you point at in red, any electrical mechanical connection?

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    It also supports the suppositions of correct installations.
    Robert,

    I'm not disputing the above ... okay ... YES I AM!

    There is nothing I see in that photo which "supports the suppositions of correct installations".

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    I'm not disputing the above ... okay ... YES I AM!

    There is nothing I see in that photo which "supports the suppositions of correct installations".
    Saying something might be wrong infers some things "might" be right.
    , Is everything wrong


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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Saying something might be wrong infers some things "might" be right.
    Nope.

    Saying that something might be wrong infers that AT LEAST "something" might be wrong, that, potentially, "everything" could be wrong, and that, "potentially" something "might" not be wrong, but that is not the inference, that is a left over possibility ... not an inference.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope.

    Saying that something might be wrong infers that AT LEAST "something" might be wrong, that, potentially, "everything" could be wrong, and that, "potentially" something "might" not be wrong, but that is not the inference, that is a left over possibility ... not an inference.


    What is wrong with the HW venting cannot be fully answered without additional information.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    If there is ever an issue with that water heater, leaking fumes or back drafting or both, the home owner's insurance company will most likely refuse to pay up.

    Somebody was clever to devise an alternative to the manufacturer's draft hood, but it is wrong and it needs repair, for that reason if no other.

    They can close off the existing connection to the chimney and cut a hole higher up. The masonry chimney needs a metal liner with a diameter that is adequate without being too large, probably 4 or maybe 5 inches.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 09-16-2016 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    The type of draft hood shown in the photo is a type that has been used long ago for boilers. It was probably approved for some uses. But, I agree with Jerry that it would not meet manufacturer'so requirements and without proper vertical rise back drafting may occur.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    What is wrong with the HW venting cannot be fully answered without additional information.
    Type of water heater - direct venting or natural draft is one thing we don't know and which completely alters the venting.

    Shown is Type B gas vent, with no draft hood at the water heater, and no one foot rise - which are all wrong for a natural draft vented water heater.

    If it is direct vent, using Type B gas vent, and not sealed at the water heater and all the out - which are all wrong for a direct vented water heater.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Type of water heater - direct venting or natural draft is one thing we don't know and which completely alters the venting.

    Shown is Type B gas vent, with no draft hood at the water heater, and no one foot rise - which are all wrong for a natural draft vented water heater.

    If it is direct vent, using Type B gas vent, and not sealed at the water heater and all the out - which are all wrong for a direct vented water heater.
    I agree with all points.
    Not enough information.

    I do not see any manufactured, or other penetration openings that would indicate a draft hood was present.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post

    In my first post I am not saying this setup is typical.

    I agree with/on all points colleagues are making BUT, not enough information.

    I am answering the OP questions.
    I am not going to guess.

    The OP questions and observation.

    Observation so far.
    1: This is a vent connection for a gas water heater.

    Hypothesis: a. It looks like when they replaced the heater it was too high to install a draft hood at the heater vent outlet,
    Hypothesis: b. so they made a solid connection to heater and installed a draft vent hood (box with opening on bottom) in the middle of the run.

    Ken , A draft hood would be mounted above the fuel tube / heat exchanger.

    As well; I have seen a setup similar to this. The vent material was disimular but it was compliant to the OP concerns as pointed out my a qualified plumber. Liability exchanged hands.

    Pass on your liability. 1: Recommend a bonded/licensed/certified/qualified technician or tradesperson evaluate the venting and connections. 2: That the client act upon any recommendations therein.

    More Questions:
    #1 Is it safe?
    (Likely not but appears to have operated to a safety margin where no one has been effected for 10 years) I see no puff back or backdraft soot at the connection or top of the WH bonnet.

    #2 Is it legal?
    ( Is it compliant with the manufacturer's installation instructions? Is it code compliant for/with venting combustible gasses?
    I doubt either.


    I do not see any manufactured, or other mechanical damage penetrations indicating a draft hood was ever present.
    The unit is 11 years old. It has been or is suspect that long..

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I do not see any manufactured, or other penetration openings that would indicate a draft hood was present.
    Sometimes there is just one hole, that hole could be on the backside and not visible in the photo.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    The photo gives us enough information to know that this is installed incorrectly whether natural or direct. And to Ken's initial question, the draft box does not "fix" this improper installation.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    It is wrong for all the reasons mentioned.

    It "MAY" work just fine but it is not setup according to its listing so no matter how well it works it is wrong.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    No listed liner visible. I guarantee you a level II inspection would reveal the need to reline this chimney.
    No cleanout- subject to flue blockages
    3" vent connector undersized. At >3ft vent rise, need 4" vent connector
    vent connector not supported
    vent connector inadequate vent rise
    elbow cut down to attach directly to appliance flue gas outlet
    No minimum 12" vent rise
    not mfrs. draft hood
    vent connector connection to chimney improperly executed. You can have smaller appliance's connector enter the flue above the larger or manifold them together then enter the common vent but not side by side.
    If those vent connectors are cemented into the thimble they must be stainless steel
    As to the draft hood issue: This 'could' be acceptable if the appliance mfr. doesn't have a problem with it and the AHJ signed off. Contrary to public opinion, you do Not HAVE to use the OEM draft hood IF, you use an 'approved' alternative. For instance, ASHRAE does not have a problem with replacing a draft hood with a bullhead tee with a double acting barometric damper so you can attach a spill switch to a thermocouple interrupter. I do this repair all the time and the AHJ's love it. That's what I'd do in this case:
    Install a properly sized listed liner that enters as high up the wall as possible while still meeting clearance to combustibles. With the liner protruding into the CAZ 2-4 inches, transition to a galvanized steel manifold using a wye with a 4" snout to the WH. Three screws min. per joint, no seams between 5-7 O'clock on horizontal runs (less than 45 from vertical), supports every 4 ft. and at offsets, then the above modification.

    Plumbers should figure the highest breaching possible, work their way back from there observing proper pitch down with adequate vent rise then that will tell you what height WH you can install.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

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    Default Re: Draft hood for water heater

    Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nope.

    Saying that something might be wrong infers that AT LEAST "something" might be wrong, that, potentially, "everything" could be wrong, and that, "potentially" something "might" not be wrong, but that is not the inference, that is a left over possibility ... not an inference. Not to be too nit-picky, but YOU imply, I infer! 🎓


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