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  1. #1
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    Default Sink drain drain line configuration

    This drain is at a laundry sink in a 65 yr old home. I think an artist got ahold of the plumber. It is configured like the old 'S-trap' style, no longer approved, and it has a mobile home style mechanical vent.
    Any thoughts are welcome. I called for a licensed plumber to r/r.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ryan View Post
    This drain is at a laundry sink in a 65 yr old home. I think an artist got ahold of the plumber. It is configured like the old 'S-trap' style, no longer approved, and it has a mobile home style mechanical vent.
    Any thoughts are welcome. I called for a licensed plumber to r/r.
    The line coming in from the right is the washing machine drain line.


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    I do not see a S trap anywhere?

    A: There is a P trap.
    B: A horizontal DWV entering a vertical DWV .
    C: An (AAV) air admittance valve atop the a vertical DWV.

    What appliance if any is to the the right of that basin in the photo?

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    S-trap, appears to be enough room there to put a proper p-trap.
    Also AAV should be above flood rim (vent should be on top of counter).

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    No "S" trap is present (because it ties into a vertical vent with a sanitary tee).

    No AAV is present (there is a mechanical vent installed).

    The height for the AAV (when installed, and the height of the mechanical vent - which is not permitted there) only needs to be 4 inches above the weir of the trap.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I do not see a S trap anywhere?

    A: There is a P trap.
    B: A horizontal DWV entering a vertical DWV .
    C: An (AAV) air admittance valve atop the a vertical DWV.

    What appliance if any is to the the right of that basin in the photo?
    The drain line from the right is the washing machine


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ryan View Post
    The drain line from the right is the washing machine
    That is why the AAV was installed.
    Let me look at the image again.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 01-06-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    That is why the AAV was installed.
    Let me look at the image again.



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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ryan View Post
    Another view of drain


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    You're the best.
    From my understanding, limited as it may be, no Y.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    How wide is the pipe? Does not look 2".

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    How wide is the pipe? Does not look 2".
    2" I believe


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    From my understanding, limited as it may be, no Y.
    That's not a 'Y', that's a 'combination wye and eight bend', it is allowed to be used for changes in direction as follows: horizontal to vertical (as shown in the photo); vertical to horizontal; horizontal to horizontal. See Table P3005.1 in the IRC.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Mechanical vents were only permitted in manufacturedifferent houses. For quite a few years they have only been approved for use in RVs. So, regardless of the piping configuration it is wrong.


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    I thought I read were AAV's can be used under certain circumstances.
    I was waiting o post th AAV.
    I will look to find the article when I find some time.

    NPC
    A-2.2.10.16.
    To limit the probability that the installation "of inappropriate air admittance valves" or of valves that do not conform to the appropriate standard will lead to the entry of sewer gases into occupied space, which could lead to negative effects on indoor air quality, which could lead to harm to persons.



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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I thought I read were AAV's can be used under certain circumstances.
    I was waiting o post th AAV.
    I will look to find the article when I find some time.
    AAVs are still not (to my knowledge) permitted to be used in Illinois.

    I'm not sure if California has limitations on their use.

    Other than those two states, I think AAVs are permitted to be used.

    There are limitations, restrictions, and requirements which must be met ... but every product has limitations, requirements, and restrictions to meet.

    AAVs can provide venting in areas where it may otherwise be difficult to provide venting.

    One key point, though, is that those black vents are not AAVs - they are "mechanical vents" which use springs for operation.

    An AAV uses the differences in air pressure for operation.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    AAVs are still not (to my knowledge) permitted to be used in Illinois.

    I'm not sure if California has limitations on their use.

    Other than those two states, I think AAVs are permitted to be used.

    There are limitations, restrictions, and requirements which must be met ... but every product has limitations, requirements, and restrictions to meet.

    AAVs can provide venting in areas where it may otherwise be difficult to provide venting.

    One key point, though, is that those black vents are not AAVs - they are "mechanical vents" which use springs for operation.

    An AAV uses the differences in air pressure for operation.
    Good points.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I thought I read were AAV's can be used under certain circumstances.
    I was waiting o post th AAV.
    I will look to find the article when I find some time.

    NPC
    A-2.2.10.16.
    To limit the probability that the installation "of inappropriate air admittance valves" or of valves that do not conform to the appropriate standard will lead to the entry of sewer gases into occupied space, which could lead to negative effects on indoor air quality, which could lead to harm to persons.
    AAV valves are permitted in the IRC. I don't know Canadian codes. That vent valve is a mechanical vent, which is not permitted. If you look at ads for them you will see that they have a NSF 41 approval or something like that. That approval is presently only for RVs. It used to be for manufactured houses also. Some people refer to these valves as AAVs, but they are not.


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    True AAV's are allowed in Canada. They are a must in a modern kitchen with the sink(s) in an island. And they go in under the usually granite counter top.

    I posted a pic a few years back of an island drain vent built from loops of cast iron and a half dozen Fernco connectors. High-rise condo. The AAV eliminates all that pipe.

    That pipe is 1 1/2" diam. The drop tube is 1 1/4". That long sweep pointing down in the clothes washer drain is wrong because air can only get in below the bend.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 01-07-2017 at 06:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    BASED ON THE ONTARIO BUILDING CODE 2012, O. REG. 332/12
    7.5.9.2.

    7.5.9.2. Air Admittance Valves
    (1) Air admittance valves shall only be used to vent,
    (a) fixtures in buildings undergoing renovation, and
    (b) installations where connection to a vent may not be practical.
    (2) The air admittance valves shall be located,
    (a) above the flood level rim of the fixture it serves,
    (b) within the maximum developed length permitted for the vent,
    (c) not less than 150 mm above insulation materials, and
    (d) installed in a location not subject to back pressure.
    (3) Air admittance valves shall,
    (a) only vent fixtures located on the same storey, and
    (b) be connected to the horizontal fixture drain.

    7.5.9.3. Installation Conditions
    (1) Air admittance valves shall not be installed in supply or return air plenums, or in locations where they may be exposed to freezing temperatures.
    (2) Air admittance valves shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.
    (3) Air admittance valves shall be rated for the size of vent pipe to which they are connected.
    (4) Installed air admittance valves shall be,
    (a) accessible, and
    (b) located in a space that allows air to enter the valve.
    (5) Every drainage system shall have one vent that terminates to open air in conformance with Sentence 7.5.6.2.(1).

    Waste Plumbing and the Importance of Venting

    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    AAV valves are permitted in the IRC. I don't know Canadian codes. That vent valve is a mechanical vent, which is not permitted. If you look at ads for them you will see that they have a NSF 41 approval or something like that. That approval is presently only for RVs. It used to be for manufactured houses also. Some people refer to these valves as AAVs, but they are not.

    .......mechanical vents may still be used in manufactured (HUD Code) homes..........Greg


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Hello Raymond. Are you saying that you call for the AAV to be mounted above the counter top?

    It is simply not done that way here. Maybe water drains uphill in Ontario? No, those rules are archaic.

    JP, thanks for the clarification and you are right, standpipe lets air in.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 01-08-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    That pipe is 1 1/2" diam. The drop tube is 1 1/4". That long sweep pointing down in the clothes washer drain is wrong because air can only get in below the bend.
    The drain from the right, from a standpipe for a clothes washing machine, is 2" and goes into a combination wye and eight bend (which is allowed for that use because: a) the fitting itself is allowed for that use; b) the vent for a clothes washer standpipe is the standpipe itself, the hose going into the standpipe from the clothes washer should never ... never ... fill the standpipe and seal it off).

    The 2" combination wye and eight bend go into a 2" pipe - at the top of the 2" pipe is a 2" x 1-1/2" reducer bushing, and into that reducer bushing is a 1-1/2" pipe.

    The piping from there up is 1-1/2", with the exception of the 1-1/4" tailpiece from the sink.

    Looks funky, but right, to me. It looks funky because the combination wye and eight bend is usually in the wall and not seen, usually what is seen is the trap arm sticking out of the wall going to the trap. I suspect there are many places where this is normal and typical because the plumbing is not necessarily "in the wall" as I usually find. I know that "European Cabinets" (as I've heard them referred to) have the bottom of the cabinets short from the wall to allow for plumbing which comes up out of the floor outside the wall.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Hello Raymond. Are you saying that you call for the AAV to be mounted above the counter top?

    It is simply not done that way anymore, and the rule you posted is wrong or out of date.
    John,

    Remember, Raymond presented what Quebec uses ... and Quebec still insists on speaking French, unlike the rest of the Canada and those 'South of the border' down here in the US of A.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Remember, Raymond presented what Quebec uses ... and Quebec still insists on speaking French, unlike the rest of the Canada and those 'South of the border' down here in the US of A.
    Well actually, the provincial government insists on a 50/50 approach to marketing by it's residents as the residents speak the native languages they are accustomed to.

    As well, Raymond represents Ontario, that has no official language and doubled it population and financial growth at its neighbor's expense.

    Money flows like water, downstream and is affected by the path of least resistance.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    John

    I am not saying it, the building code is dictating the location.
    (a) above the flood level rim of the fixture it serves,
    and under installation - (2) Air admittance valves shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

    And Jerry this is the Ontario code I published and not the Quebec code.

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    And Jerry this is the Ontario code I published and not the Quebec code.
    Yep, my error, I looked at the link before clicking on it and thought I saw QBC instead of OBC, and didn't look further to see which it was, that's why I mentioned French to Robert as he is in Quebec and I thought you were showing the Quebec building code to Robert ... I need to look closer (or get new glasses ... actually, I need to get new classes anyway as my eyes have changed since I got these a couple of years ago - just have not made the time to get new ones because it is such a hassle).

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post
    .......mechanical vents may still be used in manufactured (HUD Code) homes..........Greg
    Myers understanding is that the HUD code references the NSF 41 ? Standard but that standard no longer approved mechanical vents for manufactured houses. I have documentation regarding this.


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Myers understanding is that the HUD code references the NSF 41 ? Standard but that standard no longer approved mechanical vents for manufactured houses. I have documentation regarding this.
    NSF-41 does not relate to vents, it is for non-liquid systems, composting toilets: NSF/ANSI 41: Non-Liquid Systems - NSF International

    "SF/ANSI Standard 41 certifies composting toilets and similar treatment systems that do not use a liquid saturated media as a primary means of storing or treating human excreta or human excreta mixed with other organic household materials."

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    From the HUD 24 CFR Part 3280 - MANUFACTURED HOME CONSTRUCTION AND SAFETY STANDARDS: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/part-3280

    24 CFR Part 3280, Subpart G - Plumbing Systems: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text...3280/subpart-G

    24 CFR 3280.611 - Vents and venting: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3280.611
    - (d) Mechanical Vents. Where mechanical vents are used as a secondary vent system for plumbing fixtures that are protected by traps, the mechanical vents must comply with paragraphs (d)(1) or (2) of this section. - - (1) Spring-operated mechanical (anti-siphon) vents must comply with the following:
    - - - (i) No more than two fixtures individually protected by the spring-operated mechanical vent may be drained by a common 1 1/2 inch diameter drain.
    - - - (ii) The drain size for three or more fixtures individually protected by a spring-operated mechanical vent must be at least 2 inches in diameter.
    - - - (iii) Spring-operated mechanical vents are restricted to venting fixtures with 1 1/2 inch traps.
    - - - (iv) A spring-operated mechanical vent must be installed in a location that allows a free flow of air and is accessible for inspection, maintenance, and replacement. The sealing function must be at least 6 inches above the top of the trap arm.
    - - - (v) Materials for the spring-operated mechanical vents must be as follows:
    - - - - (A) Cap and housing must be listed acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene, DWV grade;
    - - - - (B) Stem must be DWV grade nylon or acetal;
    - - - - (C) Spring must be stainless steel wire, Type 302; and
    - - - - (D) Sealing disc must be either:
    - - - - - (1) Neoprene, conforming to CISPI-HSN-85, Specification for Neoprene Rubber Gaskets for HUB and Spigot Cast Iron Soil Pipe and Fittings (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4), and to ASTM C564-97, Standard Specification for Rubber Gaskets for Cast Iron Soil Pipe and Fittings (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4); or
    - - - - - (2) Other material, conforming to ASTM C920-02, Standard Specification for Elastomeric Joint Sealants (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4), and to ASTM D4635-01, Standard Specification for Polyethylene Films Made from Low-Density Polyethylene for General Use and Packaging Applications (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4).
    - - (2) Gravity-operated mechanical (air admittance valves) vents must comply with the following:
    - - - (i) Where installed to vent any fixture, the drain system must have a minimum 1 1/2 inch diameter vent that terminates outside the manufactured home.
    - - - (ii) Where gravity-operated mechanical vent devices terminate in the attic cavity, the following requirements must be met:
    - - - - (A) The attic cavity must be accessible;
    - - - - (B) The sealing device must be installed a minimum of 6 inches above the insulation materials; and
    - - - - (C) The attic must be vented in accordance with § 3280.504(c)(1)(i);
    - - (3) Mechanical vents must be installed in accordance with the vent manufacturer's instructions.

    24 CFR 3280.604 - Materials: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3280.604
    - Plumbing System Components for Manufactured Homes and Recreational Vehicles - ANSI/NSF 24-1988. (This is the closest thing I saw which might include mechanical vents and AAVs, I didn't find a specific listing for them.)

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the HUD 24 CFR Part 3280 - MANUFACTURED HOME CONSTRUCTION AND SAFETY STANDARDS: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/part-3280

    24 CFR Part 3280, Subpart G - Plumbing Systems: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text...3280/subpart-G

    24 CFR 3280.611 - Vents and venting: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3280.611
    - (d) Mechanical Vents. Where mechanical vents are used as a secondary vent system for plumbing fixtures that are protected by traps, the mechanical vents must comply with paragraphs (d)(1) or (2) of this section. - - (1) Spring-operated mechanical (anti-siphon) vents must comply with the following:
    - - - (i) No more than two fixtures individually protected by the spring-operated mechanical vent may be drained by a common 1 1/2 inch diameter drain.
    - - - (ii) The drain size for three or more fixtures individually protected by a spring-operated mechanical vent must be at least 2 inches in diameter.
    - - - (iii) Spring-operated mechanical vents are restricted to venting fixtures with 1 1/2 inch traps.
    - - - (iv) A spring-operated mechanical vent must be installed in a location that allows a free flow of air and is accessible for inspection, maintenance, and replacement. The sealing function must be at least 6 inches above the top of the trap arm.
    - - - (v) Materials for the spring-operated mechanical vents must be as follows:
    - - - - (A) Cap and housing must be listed acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene, DWV grade;
    - - - - (B) Stem must be DWV grade nylon or acetal;
    - - - - (C) Spring must be stainless steel wire, Type 302; and
    - - - - (D) Sealing disc must be either:
    - - - - - (1) Neoprene, conforming to CISPI-HSN-85, Specification for Neoprene Rubber Gaskets for HUB and Spigot Cast Iron Soil Pipe and Fittings (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4), and to ASTM C564-97, Standard Specification for Rubber Gaskets for Cast Iron Soil Pipe and Fittings (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4); or
    - - - - - (2) Other material, conforming to ASTM C920-02, Standard Specification for Elastomeric Joint Sealants (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4), and to ASTM D4635-01, Standard Specification for Polyethylene Films Made from Low-Density Polyethylene for General Use and Packaging Applications (incorporated by reference, see § 3280.4).
    - - (2) Gravity-operated mechanical (air admittance valves) vents must comply with the following:
    - - - (i) Where installed to vent any fixture, the drain system must have a minimum 1 1/2 inch diameter vent that terminates outside the manufactured home.
    - - - (ii) Where gravity-operated mechanical vent devices terminate in the attic cavity, the following requirements must be met:
    - - - - (A) The attic cavity must be accessible;
    - - - - (B) The sealing device must be installed a minimum of 6 inches above the insulation materials; and
    - - - - (C) The attic must be vented in accordance with § 3280.504(c)(1)(i);
    - - (3) Mechanical vents must be installed in accordance with the vent manufacturer's instructions.

    24 CFR 3280.604 - Materials: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3280.604
    - Plumbing System Components for Manufactured Homes and Recreational Vehicles - ANSI/NSF 24-1988. (This is the closest thing I saw which might include mechanical vents and AAVs, I didn't find a specific listing for them.)
    ...........as I said, they are allowed, and used, in the building of HUD Code homes..........Greg


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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The drain from the right, from a standpipe for a clothes washing machine, is 2" and goes into a combination wye and eight bend (which is allowed for that use because: a) the fitting itself is allowed for that use; b) the vent for a clothes washer standpipe is the standpipe itself, the hose going into the standpipe from the clothes washer should never ... never ... fill the standpipe and seal it off)..............


    Looks funky, but right, to me......
    What is bothering me is this - the trap at the bottom of the standpipe, not shown in the pic. The trap arm gets not much air from that end.
    The long sweep means air from the vent stack, the 'AAV', has to flow up that curved elbow, the eight bend. 2" diam makes it work, but it is awkward.

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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    I was quoting the NSF standard number from memory. The actual standard is NSF 24.

    NSF 24-2016
    Plumbing System Components for Recreational Vehicles

    The HUD code is referencing an older version of the NSF standard.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    NSF 24-2016
    Plumbing System Components for Recreational Vehicles

    The HUD code is referencing an older version of the NSF standard.
    And until the HUD code references the newer standard, the edition of the standard which is referenced is the edition of the standard which is applicable - 1988.

    The wheels of government turn slowly ... v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y in some cases. Especially where there is no $$$$ greased lobbyist promoting 'something new'.

    Their thinking may be ... if it's worked for 30 years ... it ain't broke ... if it ain't broke ... there is nothing to fix ... so why fix it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    It's not an S trap. We all agree on this, hopefully.

    AAV's were discussed.

    Still leaves two waste lines and one vent.

    907.1 Individual vent permitted. Each trap and trapped fixture is permitted to be provided with an individual vent. The Individual vent shall connect to the fixture drain of the trap or trapped fixture being vented.


    http://www.plumbingpros.com/pdf/dwvents.pdf

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Still leaves two waste lines and one vent.

    907.1 Individual vent permitted. Each trap and trapped fixture is permitted to be provided with an individual vent. The Individual vent shall connect to the fixture drain of the trap or trapped fixture being vented.


    http://www.plumbingpros.com/pdf/dwvents.pdf
    Not "required" to be individually vented.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Sink drain drain line configuration

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No "S" trap is present (because it ties into a vertical vent with a sanitary tee).

    No AAV is present (there is a mechanical vent installed).

    The height for the AAV (when installed, and the height of the mechanical vent - which is not permitted there) only needs to be 4 inches above the weir of the trap.
    Sorry, mechanical trap.

    Am I mistaken or does the washer require a separate wet vent?

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

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