Thread: PEX being phased out by Jan 1st?

Not sure if this has come up on the board yet or not. My buddy was inspecting a new home today, and the builder told him they're pulling PEX off the shelves by New Year's. He said they are finding chemicals in the water and that the collars are failing in hard water areas. Is this just rumor mill or for real?

Never heard anything like that, ever.

Originally Posted by Eric Laney

Not sure if this has come up on the board yet or not. My buddy was inspecting a new home today, and the builder told him they're pulling PEX off the shelves by New Year's. He said they are finding chemicals in the water and that the collars are failing in hard water areas. Is this just rumor mill or for real?

Haven't heard anything.... and you'd think we would have it were a big deal.

If there were really chemicals in the water why would they wait until year's end to pull it stop using it?

The builder said the manufacturers want to quietly remove it from the shelves so as not to create widespread panic and lawsuits. And I just installed a run of PEX behind my tiled in shower too. I thought I waited long enough for any problems to be discovered. Gotta say, it sure is nice to work with compared to copper. Well, as they say, if it's old it's gold, if it's new, it ain't true. I normally won't try any building product unless it's been out for ten years.

Polyethylene Tubing and Water Contamination chemical investigation

Add the contamination issue to the fittings failure issues addressed in the mInnesota class action suit and it's a wonder that they don't pull it from the shelves.

And did I mention that I have yet to see it installed properly?

Aaron

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Add the contamination issue to the fittings failure issues addressed in the mInnesota class action suit and it's a wonder that they don't pull it from the shelves.

And did I mention that I have yet to see it installed properly?

Aaron

If it's the brass fitting that is possibly defective why should the PEX be removed?

Michael:

The fittings and tubing are desinged as integral parts of a system. If one does not work, neither does the other. I also have not seen anyone demostrate to me why this procut is superior to copper other than it pads the pockets of the manufacturers and makes money for the installers who can hire even bigger idiots (read: plumbers) to install it for even less money.

Copper works. If it ain't broke; dont' fix it.

Aaron

I have to say that I'm not all that happy with the pin hole leaks I had in my copper pipes - 14 YO house.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

I have to say that I'm not all that happy with the pin hole leaks I had in my copper pipes - 14 YO house.

Jack:

I am about to retire the mortgage on my fourth house here in 2011. All had copper. The last one was 50 years old, the first one 70. No leaks.

I'd need to see more of a track record on this plastic crap to make a decision in its favor. The courts in Minnesota may decide for me.

Aaron

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Michael:

The fittings and tubing are desinged as integral parts of a system. If one does not work, neither does the other. I also have not seen anyone demostrate to me why this procut is superior to copper other than it pads the pockets of the manufacturers and makes money for the installers who can hire even bigger idiots (read: plumbers) to install it for even less money.

Copper works. If it ain't broke; dont' fix it.

Aaron

PEX has an excellent track record. Do the research. The only problem fittings may be the Zurns.

BTW-If you have corrosive water it might be prudent to treat it.

Copper is fine. The price has become high so other alternatives are more attractive at this time.

No need to denigrate hard working plumbers Aaron.

Michael:

And what about the contamination issues? It's yet to be seen what the long-term effects of the use of this material will be. I like to err on the side of caution when it comes to the protection of the life, limb, and property of myself and clients.

You may not agree with my statement about plumbers. And, that's OK. After building homes for 20 years and doing this for another 11 I have my own pet opinions about some tradesmen. The saying in my neck of the woods used to be, and still holds for me: "Plumbers only need to know two things: stuff (actually, sh*t) runs downhill and payday's Friday."

There are, I'm certain, though can no longer verify, some able hard-working plumbers about even these days. They don't work in North Texas though. All we have here is fontaneros who occasionally do good work between siestas.

Aaron

Aaron, does it bother you at all that the owner of the web site you posted is used as a hired gun in lawsuits?

Do you have any other information that would demonstrated the ill effects of PEX plumbing?

In some areas of the country you better get used to either PEX or CPVC. 95% of the new homes being built [around Atlanta] have it thanks to the thieves. Around here you can't cover the copper up fast enough before the bottom-feeders steal it. Though CPVC is much more common around here than the PEX.


Also if you think PEX has a chemical issue, then I'll bet most other products do as well. They are all made from a chemical base/substance, except copper. But I'm sure Al Gore would not agree.

Originally Posted by Brian Doles

They are all made from a chemical base/substance, except copper. But I'm sure Al Gore would not agree.

I'm not Al Gore, but I don't agree with your statement, either. Copper is a chemical. Water is a chemical. Oxygen is a chemical. Chemicals are not just plastic-like materials. What if water had some property that leached a bunch of copper out of pipe? We need a little copper, but too much is toxic.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Copper works. If it ain't broke; dont' fix it.

Aaron

Maybe in your area, it does.
Around here copper pipe is just a sieve in disguise.

Plumbers and plumbing contractors prefer CPVC because you can train a "helper" to swab glue in 5 minutes. Teaching the proper crimping methods and supplying a crimp tool costs both time and money.

Dom.

I have to agree with John. Well water is common in NH. If the water has a low pH, high Hardness or elevated Chloride, you know the plumbing is being damaged (ever so slowly). Most likely it will cause leaching of Copper, or in the case of our older homes, Lead into the water supply.
I think the industry does it's best to make products available to do the job. Since any plumbing seems to have the ability to allow something to get into our drinking water, then those concerned should simply use filter and treatment systems as an added precaution. Let's face it, unless you're ready to start lugging water from the river, you have to accept the limits of perfect water quality in todays homes.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Aaron, does it bother you at all that the owner of the web site you posted is used as a hired gun in lawsuits?

Do you have any other information that would demonstrated the ill effects of PEX plumbing?

Michael:

Oooooo, that's frightening. I've been doing expert witness work for years, charge $250 per hour and am worth more. And your point is?

Aaron

Originally Posted by Peter Drougas

Let's face it, unless you're ready to start lugging water from the river, you have to accept the limits of perfect water quality in todays homes.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't drink the water in any river I'm close too.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Michael:

Oooooo, that's frightening. I've been doing expert witness work for years, charge $250 per hour and am worth more. And your point is?

Aaron

My point Aaron is that you have not provided any credible study of on harmful affects from the use of PEX tubing in drinking water systems.
I'd be happy to read if you did so I'll be patient.

I assume that we are discussing the pex with the crimp style rings (typically blue and red), not the opaque (Wirsbo Brand) with the compression rings.

Aaron,

Read Dom's post, and Jack's, and others from areas where the water eats copper up from the inside out.

Copper *IS NOT* the cure-all-to-die-for-plumbing-system.

In some places, the water just looks at copper and says: 'Yeah, I'll be done with that stuff by lunch ... '

Jerry:

I am aware of the issues surrounding copper piping. Like with any other material they are legion. The pin hole issue you refer to is usually found in Type M copper tubing installations. I have heard every conceivable, and some not just plain unfathomable, argument as to what the cause of these pin holes may be. Everything from molecular carbon deposits left behind in the tubing after the manufacturing process to tubing sizing to water Ph imbalance to soil corrosiveness to sloppy installation techniques to aggressive flux to maybe even evil spirits. Who knows? Take your pick. There is no solid scientific confirmation of the cause, say what you will.

All of that said, it was in use by the Egyptians for water piping before Europeans were able to write and long before capitalism and its proclivity to spring forth thousands of cottage industries hoping to cash in on a cure for the problem. It's been in use in this country for at least 75 years. Whatever the problems with it may be it is almost certainly superior to its predecessors, lead and galvanized steel.

PEX does certainly have advantages. It is quieter than copper, you don't have to deal with the copper taste, there's no scaling of the interior, and there are not solder issues to consider. That said, and like all other materials for all other uses, it is likely not the cure-all for potable water transport. Neither will the next type of tubing be.

When I build my next house in a few years perhaps I will by then be convinced of PEX's superiority. If not I will install Type K copper tubing.

Happy Holidays to you and yours,

Aaron

I'm skeptical of anything plastic as it pertains to our health... that being said I don't lose sleep over it at night. I'd live in a house with plastic plumbing or copper.

As testing procedures get more advanced and as more time passes where we've used plastic for certain things there will likely be more things like this that pop up.

I keep wating for someone to come up with a study that blames the glue is OSB board for poisening people. It will be like the next asbestos or lead paint.

btw.... I too am wondering about the question posed a few posts up. Is this just the pex with the crimp fittings or are we talking about wirsbo too? I thought somebody told me pex bought wirsbo or something like that.

Only the PEX piping cross linked using t-butyl peroxide has been found to cause the problem byproducts to appear. There are at least two other ways to make PEX.

Also, the problem decreases as the piping is used/flushed over time.

Info found in these letters: Letters to NSF- Polyethylene Tubing and Water Contamination

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

btw.... I too am wondering about the question posed a few posts up. Is this just the pex with the crimp fittings or are we talking about wirsbo too? I thought somebody told me pex bought wirsbo or something like that.

PEX is not a brand or manufacturer -- it's just a type of pipe. Like tissue and Kleenex.

Wirsbo is a maker of PEX. There are a handful of other makers.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

PEX does certainly have advantages.

....

That said, and like all other materials for all other uses, it is likely not the cure-all for potable water transport.

No one is saying that PEX is the cure-all, you are the one stating (at the very least, implying) that copper is the only viable material one should use.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Copper works. If it ain't broke; dont' fix it.

Aaron

Like PEX, Copper is not the cure-all. In fact, copper has a high rate of failure *in some areas*.

Yet, you are bent and determined that if Aaron says one thing, there are no other options, that what Aaron says is the gospel.

Certainly lowers your overall credibility when you take positions like that.

Kind of like you position on stairs and drawers in the risers ... et al.

When they remove something from the market they typically let the suppliers and tradesman use up there stock. It's crazy but it's true. They used Poly from the 80' to mid 90's around here and when it was phased out in 96 the plumbers where allowed to use up what they had. You will find it in most 97 homes.
Even when the Seer on A/C units was raised to 13 in 06 the contractors where allowed to use up there stock of 10 seer. (I know this has nothing to do with failure)
Funny thing is we went to all poly to all pex. I have seen failed pex from Plumbing Express seminars but haven't seen any around here.

I had copper in my home and my well water is very acidic. Fine to drink but hell on copper. Repaired so many pin holes that I decided to re-plumb everything with CPVC. Haven't had a issue yet since 96. By the way Pex been installed here since that time too and haven't heard of any failures.

I've talked with a couple of manufacturer's regarding the PEX product and it is not going away or being phased out ... based on those conversations and many WEB searches I've done.

Information provided by the folks I talked with seems to relate primarily to proper installation and some of the products used for installation. In that "some" of the connectors, crimp rings, etc., etc. are not a top grade product and don't meet certain required specifications.

As Aaron has indicated installation is absolutely "key".

One of the sources I talked with today indicated a lot of product available in the big box stores was being removed/replaced as the fittings (brass, copper) were not up to proper standards.

PEX-type product is used in the medical arena and meets/exceeds all requirements with respect to chemicals, etc.

The general drift I got from the calls was that when the lower grade, class B or class C (my terminology) product is used then there can be problems.

As a follow up, I've been in both Home Depot and Lowes since the 1st, and PEX is still on the shelf, plus no employee has heard of the recall.

Originally Posted by Eric Laney

As a follow up, I've been in both Home Depot and Lowes since the 1st, and PEX is still on the shelf, plus no employee has heard of the recall.

Many things are sold in the Big Box stores that are not allowed in residental construction. I would not count on them to be the definitive source to any question I might have. You can even buy (if they have old stock) old water heaters that do not have the sealed burn chambers. Just because the manufacturers are not allowed to produce them does not mean that the old stock can't be sold off.

As for PEX it is here to stay until something else comes along to take it's place.

Eric,

You may have gotten second hand information that IPEX wthdrew from maunufacturing as of October 31, 2008.

A google search 02/05/09 on "PEX plumbing lawsuits" shows 4 Class Action Lawsuits.

1) Zurn and Qest
2) IPEX
3) UltraPex
4) Wirsbo

Anybody know how to verify the type of fittings that were actually installed inside a clients walls or ceiling?

Are the enthusiastic PEX installers in your area willing to honor the 25 year free of defects warranty touted by the manufacturers,to include consequential damages? Are they willing to set aside money in a trust in case they go out of business? Are they willing to put their money where there mouth is?

Inspectors-when your client asks you THE question-would you buy a house with PEX plumbing-yes or no? what are you going to say, and how well do you sleep at night?

Yes I would. I sleep just fine. Maybe they can worry more about toxic mold, radon in their counter top or asbestos in the glue under their tiles. It's all a big scam by attorneys sucking money out of the economy under the guise of "protecting the consumer".

Jim, I hope you are right.

It's the manuals for Wirsbo, Vangard-revised 2005, that are scary. Besides the proven problem with inserts-how many are they going to throw at this-now Zurn is back to plastic? read PB acetal lawsuit, and many plumber comments about the aluminum rings.

But how about UV exposure. They void it with 60 day exposure to direct or indirect? how about fluorescent? also exposure to petroleum products, like the oil puddle in the bottom of the pickup? Whole bunch of new subdivisions with unprotected PEX stubs, have been sitting for a year. If you follow other threads on the google search, you'll find advice from the manufacturer not to put the stuff in the crawlspace near a vent.

At the outset, any construction material that can't stand up to light?
Sure there atre NOW UV inhibitors. Check out plumbing supply, that Wirsbo warned a few years ago no UV.

Read the actual Zurn law suit. They advertised huge and wormed out because the water was corrosive to the brass?

We were plumbers we did all copper and switched to mainly PEX in the walls with home run architecture and Copper in the mechanical rooms for integrity and neatness. There is no perfect system or materical. We have a wide swath of aggressive water in our area that eats even type L copper for lunch. A leaking copper house inside of 10 years is common. Drinking water from a copper system that is being eaten away is not such a good idea. My own water is hard and coats the inside of copper pipes with a layer of lime pretty much ends any significant leacching of copper. To those who are screaming about PEX PVC has all the same issues with sunlight exposure but I haven't heard anyone wanting to swithc DVW back to copper?. The odds of you picking up plastic are much higher from drinking liquids that are sold in plastic bottles than from water piping. Those plastic bottles are blow molded and filled with your favorite beverage immediately. the pipe has been manufactured at least months before it had drinking water through it. Brass is also found in most faucets so what material are you going to use for your faucets? PEX also saves considerable energy as much smaller amounts of water need to be flushed before hot water flows from the faucet.
As others mentioned copper is connected with solder the lead free solders may have issues of their own that someone will sue over sooner or later. I removed my 40 year old copper and replaced it with PEX during my recent remodel. Europe was much quicker to adopt PEX than the US, they have decades of experience with installed PEX with no significant issues. I have found the crimp ring style PEX to be the most friendly to the installer and it does not have the cold weather issues that the expand and contract method does. It also is much better to use in restricted access areas. If the sunlight issues are found to be a big problem then they will coextrude a UV resistant layer to protect the PEX.
As far as brass goes I have seen the studies on the lead leached from brass faucets and even if you only drank the first ounce of water from faucets that hadn't been used for hours you would have a hard time ingesting a significant amount of lead in a life time. Especially compared ot the amount of lead we older folks have already gotten from breathing vehicle exhaust and sanding or scraping paint! Make the law suit monsters PROVE there is a better system before they force removal of an existng stystem.
I find it funny how many Inspecters tout personal opinions rather than facts when their JOB is to insure that just the opposite method is used in construction!
Gary

Originally Posted by John Paul Jones

At the outset, any construction material that can't stand up to light?

You mean like clear plastic sheeting laid out in the sunlight, gets reinforcing steel laid on it, WWM laid out on it, sets there up to a week or two, then it disappears from sunlight - how much deterioration has already started, and, once started, placing it in the dark does not stop it.

What about asphalt shingles which cannot hold up long to the UV in South Florida?

What about paint which fades and deteriorates in sunlight?

Virtually every construction material is susceptible to UV degradation, yet they all also have some level of UV resistance.

The really bad one was the Owl Flex flexible duct (the first flexible duct), take it out of the box on the construction site for installation and it was exposed to UV, install it in the structure still open and it was exposed to UV, close the structure up (making it now in the dark) and give it 10-15 years ... the outer covering continued to deteriorated and was splitting and falling off - all just from the initial exposure to sunlight during construction.

The solution to the PEX problem is so simple that no one see it because they are already in the lion's mouth looking down its throat ... and the problem is those teeth back there on your neck ...

Make every PEX run a home run, then make every connection up OUTSIDE the wall, in a cabinet, in something, just not concealed in a wall.

Now, if there is a leak it is either a nail, screw, or an actual piping failure.

What's wrong with CPVC?

Shingles last 25 years in Florida. They can be inspected. They don't leak unless punctured.

When I look at the crimp tool, how it has to be used, and the close tolerance of the torque, I have to wonder if the method allows for any error.

I have worked with good plumbers who had no problems with pb. The little I could see in the basement or under the sinks looked good, and no problems. I also saw a lot of lazy work. I did a home this week built in 1985 that the pb let go upstairs. All finish materials, cabinets, went. Also the water sagged the floor joists by an inch. When it dried out they had that sag.

My opinion of PEX and PB is the same. The tool is basically hard to get a 90 degree crimp in small areas. It does not require the care of installation gotten from copper or CPVC, so it can work for , then fail. It only takes one crimp that is not square. Not the same for Copper or cpvc.
So, I'm Atlanta area, and appreciate that your water in Wisconsin isn't good. Could you use a whole house filter?

I have run pex style for two plus years and copper for twenty years. I have pros and cons about both. I like using pex on long runs, short runs(foot or two) I like copper. Copper ( fitting)cost less than pex but pex fitting are quicker to install. If time is your side My opinion copper is the way to go. If you are there to get in and out pex is a labor saving. When quoteing a job I weigh out both pex and copper for price
Last note. You can always sale your copper fitting for scrap. Not sure scrap yard take pex fitting yet

I use Manifolds and home runs I don't think the PEX and PB are comparable but that's me. My water is fine (rather hard) but Calcium doesn't hurt anyone. The acidic water is supposedly correctable with an expensive calcium manganese based filter. More of a nuetralizer I guess. The rumor is that tanic acid is the culprit but I have no idea of the veracity of that. I used to sell residential and commercial waterheaters into that market and could seldom get through warranty with just one heater. gggGary

Originally Posted by John Paul Jones

Shingles last 25 years in Florida.

Where did you get that from?

Way off base.

Remember, I said "What about asphalt shingles which cannot hold up long to the UV in South Florida?"

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Jack:
I'd need to see more of a track record on this plastic crap to make a decision in its favor.
Aaron

Pex has been in use in Europe since it's invention in the 60's.

Originally Posted by John Paul Jones

What's wrong with CPVC?

My opinion of PEX and PB is the same. The tool is basically hard to get a 90 degree crimp in small areas. It does not require the care of installation gotten from copper or CPVC, so it can work for , then fail. It only takes one crimp that is not square. Not the same for Copper or cpvc.
So, I'm Atlanta area, and appreciate that your water in Wisconsin isn't good. Could you use a whole house filter?

I would have to say that copper is as or more prone to fail due to workmanship. I have seen repaires to copper that were done in a tight crawlspace, where sweating the copper had to be done while doing a half crunch in wet mud and trying not to get molton solder scorching your chest hair. The copper could not be fully seen so if there is a less than perfect cleaning of the joint it doesn't tin. The flux holds the water for a while, then it lookes like a soaker squirt gun flooding the crawl! With PEX at least you can see the end cut before you make the crimp and there is a go-no-go gauge (that no one uses) to verify the crimp. PEX has my vote!

Inspectors,

If you have about 10 minutes, this is a very good Zurn factory video on proper installation of Zurn PEX with insert. As mentioned, a class action law suit was filed 4-14-08. Plumbing Supply provides good additional insights.

Zurn PEX Plumbing Systems Part 1

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/pdf/zurn-pex-amended-complaint.pdf

Pex - Crosslink PolyEthylene questions - FAMOUS PLUMBING SUPPLY

That clears up a lot of questions Thank you for the info. I use the stainless crimps. They are evil to get off . Never had a stainless crimp leak I used the brass on one job. Took them all off and put on stainless. I had leaks at the very first water test