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  1. #1
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    Default Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    We've recently hired a company to install a new upstairs master shower. They are using a PVC liner on the floor. I had to fight with them to do a pre-sloped mortar bed under the liner and now that the liner is in place i have some concerns.

    I think the drain should have weep holed. If anything, this drain is higher in the middle than the outer edge. it does not seem to lend itself to drain.

    Also, the way they have done the liner at the corner and sides looks very incorrect to me.

    They say i am wrong so i am hoping some experts can weigh in for me at let me know whether this is as bad as I think it is.

    thanks for all input - even if you tell me i am wrong it will help me sleep easier.

    Darlene

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Weep holes can be verified like this:
    https://youtu.be/aL2EkLmRTnw

    Shower pan liner installation:
    https://youtu.be/dRwu1SE_Ass
    Note: Step 6 is seldom done, not doing Step 6 (installing shower corner dams is a frequent cause of shower pan leaks.

    Another frequent source of shower pan leaks is those folded corners - if not folded properly and neatly, the folds are in the way of the tile contractor, so they 'cut the corners out', resulting in no shower pan liner in the corners and ... obviously ... leaks at the corners.

    The corners should be folded back (not in) so the bulky fold is outside the shower, outside the tile installer's way.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    My failure rate on new tile shower floors is consistently somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2. That means when I test the units during an inspection they start flooding the ceiling and/or room below.
    You have the power of the purse so to speak. I suggest you tell the contractor to stop working until they can provide documentation on their installation method.
    What standard are they using, what manufacturer or industry specifications, what warranty will they provide on the installation, will they flood test when they are done prior to you writing a final check, etc.
    Go to the store and buy a decent 2, 3, 4' level, whatever fits in the shower and check it for slope towards the drain and away from the walls. If it does not consistently slope to the drain, tell them they have to redo it.
    Laticrete has great installation instructions on their site for tile showers. Schluter also has great videos on their site for how to properly do a shower. Spend the money on a Schluter system. Its well worth it.
    Oh and most importantly, when the contractor tells you 'oh don't you worry your pretty little self about leaks, the grout and caulk will take care of any of that'. Throw them off the job and call your attorney.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Another thing to pay attention to is, as shown in the Oatey installation video at 1:40, the beginning of Step Two ... see that blocking between the studs around the bottom of the shower?

    Now go back and look at your photo, see the difference?

    Those shower pan liners are not designed to be, and not intended to be, self-supporting - they require continuous support around the shower pan liner.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Another thing to pay attention to is, as shown in the Oatey installation video at 1:40, the beginning of Step Two ... see that blocking between the studs around the bottom of the shower?

    Now go back and look at your photo, see the difference?

    Those shower pan liners are not designed to be, and not intended to be, self-supporting - they require continuous support around the shower pan liner.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Thank you all for inputs and I appreciate anyone else piling on my list of problems.

    I did buy a level and diagram shows the measurements i get, So the short direction has adequate slope at 1/4 but the longer spans are quite inadequate (1/8 and 0). So they essentially added flat mortar which makes no sense. They keep saying they can't do more slope because it would make the mortar too high. But i know there has to be a right way it can be done.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    I suspect that what they mean by "get too high" is that the back of the shower (farthest side from the drain) will get higher than the other sides, which is only correct if they use that as their starting point.

    If they slope 1/4" per foot to the long end to establish the height of the mortar bed, then use that same height for the other sides, then the slope of the other sides will be greater than 1/4" per foot, which is okay (but which may be what is confusing them).

    The only way to be able to get 1/4" per foot evenly on all four sides is to have a square shower with the drain in the center.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    I agree with Jerry, everything looks right. Darlene, give them time to finish and run the water test over night and everything should be fine.

    Good luck


  8. #8

    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Levitt View Post
    I agree with Jerry, everything looks right. Darlene, give them time to finish and run the water test over night and everything should be fine.

    Good luck
    I agree that this installation looks a bit wonky but it's probably fine. There's an adhesive that the better plumbers use to tighten up the corners and to extend the membrane in the center where the drain is cut via a scrap piece of liner tucked underneath. Now that the job is complete, let the water test be the judge, although this isn't pretty it should work, (the real work is done by the finishing components).

    That said, there are better ways to seal a wet area using a waterproofing tile membrane like the Schluter System. These systems are used by custom shower builders and the like, (those guys are usually worth their heavy price tag).


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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Conselyea View Post
    I agree that this installation looks a bit wonky but it's probably fine. There's an adhesive that the better plumbers use to tighten up the corners and to extend the membrane in the center where the drain is cut via a scrap piece of liner tucked underneath. Now that the job is complete, let the water test be the judge, although this isn't pretty it should work, (the real work is done by the finishing components).

    That said, there are better ways to seal a wet area using a waterproofing tile membrane like the Schluter System. These systems are used by custom shower builders and the like, (those guys are usually worth their heavy price tag).
    I couldn't agree more, the pre-manufactured systems work so much better, everything is sloped the right way etc.
    That said, I'm sure before they do the mortar bed, they will tighten everything up including the corners because you cannot install backer board over a fold like this, this will be tucked in and corrected.


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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Levitt View Post
    I couldn't agree more, the pre-manufactured systems work so much better, everything is sloped the right way etc.
    That said, I'm sure before they do the mortar bed, they will tighten everything up including the corners because you cannot install backer board over a fold like this, this will be tucked in and corrected.
    I agree that Schulter is a great system. That being said I have built many custom homes since the 1980's and all our custom showers were with the liner directly on the plywood and then the sloped cement over that. In all those installations one leak.
    Turns out the durock installer sliced the liner near the base of the wall.
    Also agree about the blocking being a necessity.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Again thanks for the inputs I really appreciate them. We had a meeting last night with the remodeler that left me still unsatisfied. Below are things they insist they plan to do because it is what they always have done for the 1000's of bathrooms they have done They say they warranty their work so i should trust they know what they are doing.

    1. they plan to screw a hardie backer board on top of the curb OVER the pvc liner. Everything i read says that is a big no-no. they said they would redguard the screws. But of course what happens between the liner and the hardiboard?

    1a. I forgot to ask what the heck they plan to attach the tile to on the inside of the curb? The only thing there is going to be pvc liner because they say they do not mud curbs.

    2. They intended to lay the wall hardie backer boards on the mortar bed. I told them even the install directions say a 1/4 gap with caulking should be used.

    3. They will only red guard the wall seams. There is no vapor barrier behind the wall so I understand that either back or front should be waterproof. Our state code says something about waterproof to 6 ft above something. And i understand hardie board to be only water resistant

    So, am I the terrible customer every contractor dreads? Am I too picky?

    We are considering cancelling the shower work and let them finish the other stuff (paint, lights, cabinet, etc) We will probably loose many $1000 doing so, but could feel better about our shower.

    or

    Should I simply trust their process and use the warranty (if they are even around then - they do have a huge company that does do 100/1000s a year and seem to be well respected in our town)


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Levitt View Post
    I agree with Jerry, everything looks right.
    That is the opposite of what I said - I even pointed out some of the things which were "not right".

    Jerry Peck
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Levitt View Post
    I couldn't agree more, the pre-manufactured systems work so much better, everything is sloped the right way etc.
    That said, I'm sure before they do the mortar bed, they will tighten everything up including the corners because you cannot install backer board over a fold like this, this will be tucked in and corrected.
    I second that. I'm "assuming" you did do diligence prior to hiring the contractor by lic./ ins. references previous work .... Not that there is anything wrong with questioning a contractors methods, you stated you are "fighting" with them. Maintaining a good working relationship will afford you the best job possible, instead of acrimonious one where they will want to get out of there ASAP. You can take pictures and question the foreman by email, but I would let the professionals do what they were hired to do. I see no issues so far.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Laudeman View Post
    I agree that Schulter is a great system. That being said I have built many custom homes since the 1980's and all our custom showers were with the liner directly on the plywood and then the sloped cement over that. In all those installations one leak.
    Turns out the durock installer sliced the liner near the base of the wall.
    Also agree about the blocking being a necessity.
    Yes, shower base installations can be messed up in many ways... Some will drop a crew and step on it, some will not raise liner high enough, some backerboard installers can also screw it up, etc.

    A few years ago I did a job for a customer who moved into the house about 2 months ago, right after the house underwent complete renovation. 2 months down the road they noticed a leak on the ceiling below.
    I went to take a look everything seems fine on the surface. I got my plumber out there he also couldn't see or notice anything unusual, so the only thing could cause that leak is the drain, so we opened the ceiling below and sure enough the drain was the cause of it. Nothing could be done from below the pan had to be taking out and re-lined.
    We started to do the demo and I couldn't believe my eyes what we found. First of all they used red brick for make the curb. Second what really blew my mind is that they used contractor garbage bags instead of the liner. You would think doing this 35+yrs you have seen everything... but who would think someone in the right mind would use garbage bags instead of a liner.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlene Reinhard View Post
    Should I simply trust their process and use the warranty (if they are even around then - they do have a huge company that does do 100/1000s a year and seem to be well respected in our town)
    At a minimum, I would ask them what they charge to replace a leaking shower pan ... then keep that $5,000 out of their cost to cover for the shower pan repair in the future.

    And if you don't want different and mismatched tile after the repair, make sure to have enough of the same tile from the same color lot numbers.

    Their answers were such that it gave me that much (little) faith in them ... especially making holes down through where the liner goes over the top of the threshold ... "no problem, ma'am, we've done that to 1000s of and "we" ain't seen none leak yet ... ('course "we" haven't gone back to comprehend what poking holes through a watertight membrane does, either) ... but rest assured, ma'am, we'll tear this thing apart and do it wrong again if it leaks" ...

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Fighting is probably too strong a word. We've been cordial but we are definitely questioning. We hired a remodeling company that has an excellent reputation in our city. They do have 1000s of past projects. They use many teams of workers for the various parts of the project. So many parts of our project prior to this have gone well.

    but now they are on the shower and claim the team we have working our shower have been with them for 20 years (of course they usually just send a guy that was probably 5 or 6 years old 20 years ago)

    And i do want to let professionals do what they do, and when i question the owner they said "oh you know too much, you look at all those videos online that are trying to sell you something". To which i respond that most the stuff i am questioning are spelled out in Installation literature and videos from the product manufacturer.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;284171]At a minimum, I would ask them what they charge to replace a leaking shower pan ... then keep that $5,000 out of their cost to cover for the shower pan repair in the future.

    Good luck with that approach. I only see a project stop and ensuing litigation where you would have to produce an expert witness and lengthy delay to the project.

    You hired an established, well reputed contractor that you have been happy with so far. At this point I would create an email thread to the owner noting inconsistencies with manufactures specifications and your pictures. For the workers coffee and brownies. I don't know what your contract warranty is but if the owner is so confident in the quality of his product he wouldn't object to extending the typical warranty. Should an issue develop down the road you are well documented.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil brody View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    At a minimum, I would ask them what they charge to replace a leaking shower pan ... then keep that $5,000 out of their cost to cover for the shower pan repair in the future.
    Good luck with that approach. I only see a project stop and ensuing litigation where you would have to produce an expert witness and lengthy delay to the project.
    That's basically where they are right now - work on the shower has stopped, and with the contractor's responses as they were, the options are to stop the work and lose as little as possible, or litigation (through small claims, it would cost more to litigate with experts and attorneys than the job is worth).

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That's basically where they are right now - work on the shower has stopped, and with the contractor's responses as they were, the options are to stop the work and lose as little as possible, or litigation (through small claims, it would cost more to litigate with experts and attorneys than the job is worth).
    I didn't get that from post 11 from today.
    How the contractor will assess liquidated damages is a question she can ask and then make her decision on the value of her piece of mind. Question is: when the next contractor comes on board will she run into the same situation ?


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Question is: when the next contractor comes on board will she run into the same situation ?
    Most likely, because most site built shower stalls fail at an alarming rate around here. Everyone applies their "spin" (typically described as "xyz years of doing it this way...) to the installation and it's never done to specs or standards.

    Buy a pre-fab stall and one piece pan, it will last longer than most hacked-up amalgams that pass for showers nowadays.

    Dom.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Most likely, because most site built shower stalls fail at an alarming rate around here. Everyone applies their "spin" (typically described as "xyz years of doing it this way...) to the installation and it's never done to specs or standards.

    Buy a pre-fab stall and one piece pan, it will last longer than most hacked-up amalgams that pass for showers nowadays.

    Dom.
    Dom,

    Agreed except for the last part "Buy a pre-fab stall and one piece pan, it will last longer than most hacked-up amalgams that pass for showers nowadays" - I have seem many prefab shower pans (mostly acrylic and fiberglass) which are so cheaply built that there is no way they could be expected to survive storage on the job site, handling on the job site, plain old piss-poor prior conditions (sub-floor), and 'I don't care' installation by plumbers, not to mention the drywall contractors, et al ... that it can only be expected for them to fail too.

    Quality manufactured one piece shower pans installed in a bed of mortar to give full support to the shower pan, okay, I could agree on those.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Good One Jerry -
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Another thing to pay attention to is, as shown in the Oatey installation video at 1:40, the beginning of Step Two ... see that blocking between the studs around the bottom of the shower?

    Now go back and look at your photo, see the difference?

    Those shower pan liners are not designed to be, and not intended to be, self-supporting - they require continuous support around the shower pan liner.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Another thing to pay attention to is, as shown in the Oatey installation video at 1:40, the beginning of Step Two ... see that blocking between the studs around the bottom of the shower?

    Now go back and look at your photo, see the difference?

    Those shower pan liners are not designed to be, and not intended to be, self-supporting - they require continuous support around the shower pan liner.



  23. #23
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlene Reinhard View Post
    Thank you all for inputs and I appreciate anyone else piling on my list of problems.

    I did buy a level and diagram shows the measurements i get, So the short direction has adequate slope at 1/4 but the longer spans are quite inadequate (1/8 and 0). So they essentially added flat mortar which makes no sense. They keep saying they can't do more slope because it would make the mortar too high. But i know there has to be a right way it can be done.
    Morning, Darlene.
    Hope you are well and in good spirits this morning.

    Darlene, I hope you are not using a spirit level, in this situation, measuring shower pan slope.
    Spirits levels are not 'as accurate' as one would require for this situation.
    A: How do you know that level is accurate?
    'The best' spirit levels, is accurate to within plus or minus 0.5 millimeters/meter, or 0.005 inches/inch or .029 degrees.
    B: How do you archive degrees? That would be my question.

    Is/was the shower pan manufactured with an anticipated mortar bed slope?

    *Note: The/An recommended minimum slope for a shower floor is about 4% percent, 2.29 ? Degrees, or a 1/2 inch drop, per every 12 inches (from the shower walls to the drain.) Note the word 'shower walls.'

    I utilize digital level/s, to measure shower pan slope, and laser beam to direct a sight line, atop other digital builders level/s, for longer runs when required, to measure/convert slopes between degrees, gradients and grades degree (?) of gradient. The idea, accuracy.

    As other expressed, a flood test by the builder would put any worries to rest/bed.

    Keep us posted.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Young
    Spirits levels are not 'as accurate' as one would require for this situation.
    A: How do you know that level is accurate?
    Robert, you check a spirit level the same way you check a digital electronic level. You do check your electronic level, right?

    The difference being that the electronic digital level has a calibrate button and can re-calibrates itself, very few spirit levels are made to be re-calibrated in the field.

    The best' spirit levels, is accurate to within plus or minus 0.5 millimeters/meter, or 0.005 inches/inch or .029 degrees.
    And your electronic level is even that accurate? What does your electronic level read out in that is even close to that?

    "0.005 inches/inch" - most electronic levels don't even read as accurate as 0.005 inches per foot, more like 0.125 inches per foot (1/8 inch/foot), maybe with indicators showing +/- or in between points.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert, you check a spirit level the same way you check a digital electronic level. You do check your electronic level, right?

    The difference being that the electronic digital level has a calibrate button and can re-calibrates itself, very few spirit levels are made to be re-calibrated in the field.



    And your electronic level is even that accurate? What does your electronic level read out in that is even close to that?

    "0.005 inches/inch" - most electronic levels don't even read as accurate as 0.005 inches per foot, more like 0.125 inches per foot (1/8 inch/foot), maybe with indicators showing +/- or in between points.
    Yes all my equipment was calibrated by the manufacturer, and certain equipment gets calibrated every 2 years, or longer. IE. Fluke Ti300. Fluke 971 hydrometer.

    I will post some pics from todays job, equipment used, and a shower pan.

    Deciding Which Sensitivity
    In order to determine which sensitivity is best for a particular application, it is first necessary to decide how level the product needs to be. Another way of looking at this is to 'consider what is the maximum angle off-level' that the product will still work correctly.



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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Sorry about this post. I have tried three browsers and for whatever reason it is losing all line feeds. The image is formatted for easier reading.Thanks Robert for asking how I am doing. Still makes my stomach churn to think about but holding up fine. At least I can sleep at night.I am using a brand new digital level from Home Depot. it allows you to measure a pitch in 1/8 increments per foot. I am somewhat a newbee but think the directions were easy enough.I am not sure i understand why the flood test is so important. They did one with the liner but i would expect it to pass since it is a single piece of pvc liner with just one corner dam (that i insisted they use). My bigger worry is that over time any one of their poor workmanship is going to allow water in to slowly degrade the shower.1. No support for mortar bed between studs.2. Screwed in hardie board ON TOP of PVC liner3. Weep holes that don't appear to work. Cannot get water to them (0 slope in places) and can't get water through them for some reason4. No vapor barrier. Their only "waterproofing" is going to be redguard at the seams of hardie board.5. Tiles applied directly to PVC at inside of curb falling offWe think these are our three options1. Trust her (owner) and the warranty. 2. Ask her to stay away from our shower and finish the rest of the project. Have to hire a professional tile person at extra cost.3. Ask her to leave the entire project but then have to find lots of stuff on our own. cabinets, granite, trim and door painting, lights, .... I have decent confidence that her other work is good. As it has been work up until the shower.I lean toward doing #2. My husband worries if two companies are involved they would always blame the other if failure occurs.

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    Last edited by Darlene Reinhard; 05-02-2019 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Robert,

    We're talking about and electronic digital level, the user calibrate it by (varies by brand of level, but this is the basic sequence):
    - lay level on a surface, doesn't need to be a "level" surface, just a flat surface, press the calibrate button, rotate the level end for end (the high end of the level is now the low end), press calibrate button again, the level splits the readings - the center of the two readings equals "true horizontal" or "dead level".

    The electronic level has re-calibrates itself.

    You should re-calibrate an electronic level every time you take it out of your tool bag/box, after dropping it or bumping it, and at anytime you want to double check a reading.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert,

    We're talking about and electronic digital level, the user calibrate it by (varies by brand of level, but this is the basic sequence):
    I did not read that. (So the short direction has adequate slope at 1/4 but the longer spans are quite inadequate (1/8 and 0).) I would expect percentage or degree of angle expressed as (?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - lay level on a surface, doesn't need to be a "level" surface, just a flat surface, press the calibrate button, rotate the level end for end (the high end of the level is now the low end), press calibrate button again, the level splits the readings - the center of the two readings equals "true horizontal" or "dead level".
    A laboratory calibration certificate would not be questioned in a court of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The electronic level has re-calibrates itself.

    You should re-calibrate an electronic level every time you take it out of your tool bag/box, after dropping it or bumping it, and at anytime you want to double check a reading.
    Yes I concur. Read my answer above. That would avoid legal rebuttal.

    From todays shower pan. I also do angle of bathtub rims.
    sp1.JPG
    sp2.JPG

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    A laboratory calibration certificate would not be questioned in a court of law.
    They are questioned all the time.

    I worked in the Standars Lab (as it was called) for a government defense contractor too many years ago to say here, we calibrated all the equipment for research and development, manufacturing, and test (quality control) - being "calibrated" is meaningless without repeatable documentation.

    Once you take equipment out from where it was calibrated, there are many reasons which would require that equipment to be re-calibrated. Only after repeated re-calibration with no/minimal change to calibration being required, would the calibration stand up as defensible.

    Any change in calibration required because it was outside its calibration allowance (such as 1%-2%-3% full scale, +??/-??, etc), its calibration is affected and null and void - may be suitable for use as a rough indication of something, but the previous readings taken between the two calibrations are no longer defensible.

    We had a special part of our Standards Lab with items and equipment which only left that room when they were sent National Institute of Standards (now the National Institute of Standards and Technology).

    With an electronic level, which gets bumped around, ... NOTHING replaces using its built-in calibration system EVERYTIME you take it out of the tool bag/box.

    Regarding your other equipment which you get re-calibrates ... I hope you receive documentation which includes what the calibration was when it arrived there (what it read at given calibration readings, what it should have read, if the readings were still within calibration limits, and the re-calibration adjustments made.

    If you find that the readings upon them checking the calibration are outside the calibration limits, that means the readings between calibrations are no good and you need to send it back for re-calibration sooner.

    When you find that the readings upon them checking the calibration are within the calibration limits, then all the readings between calibration are presumed to be good readings.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-03-2019 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Many typos - typed on my phone
    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    They are questioned all the time.

    I worked in the Standars Lab (as it was called) for a government defense contractor too many years ago to say here, we calibrated all the equipment for research and development, manufacturing, and test (quality control) - being "calibrated" is meaningless without repeatable documentation.

    Once you take equipment out from where it was calibrated, there are many reasons which would require that equipment to be re-calibrated. Only after repeated re-calibration with no/minimal change to calibration being required, would the calibration stand up as defensible.

    Any change in calibration required because it was outside its calibration allowance (such as 1%-2%-3% full scale, +??/-??, etc), its calibration is affected and null and void - may be suitable for use as a rough indication of something, but the previous readings taken between the two calibrations are no longer defensible.

    We had a special part of our Standards Lab with items and equipment which only left that room when they were sent National Institute of Standards (now the National Institute of Standards and Technology).

    With an electronic level, which gets bumped around, ... NOTHING replaces using its built-in calibration system EVERYTIME you take it out of the tool bag/box.

    Regarding your other equipment which you get re-calibrates ... I hope you receive documentation which includes what the calibration was when it arrived there (what it read at given calibration readings, what it should have read, if the readings were still within calibration limits, and the re-calibration adjustments made.

    If you find that the readings upon them checking the calibration are outside the calibration limits, that means the readings between calibrations are no good and you need to send it back for re-calibration sooner.

    When you find that the readings upon them checking the calibration are within the calibration limits, then all the readings between calibration are presumed to be good readings.
    There for my calibration reply. Bee in court and going again to testify for a client. I do not predict expert witness this time.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    There for my calibration reply. Bee in court and going again to testify for a client. I do not predict expert witness this time.
    So, you will be there as a "witness of fact" only (this is what my report says I saw)? And you get how much, $100 (maybe that much as you are compelled by a subpoena to testify?

    As soon as you are asked anything similar to 'Mr. Young, and that means ... ' and 'Mr. Young, what do you think ... ', any opinion question ... OR ANY OPINION ANSWER ... and you are being asked/you are offering an EXPERT answer.

    Unless courts up there are a lot different than this side of the border.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    So, you will be there as a "witness of fact" only (this is what my report says I saw)? And you get how much, $100 (maybe that much as you are compelled by a subpoena to testify?

    As soon as you are asked anything similar to 'Mr. Young, and that means ... ' and 'Mr. Young, what do you think ... ', any opinion question ... OR ANY OPINION ANSWER ... and you are being asked/you are offering an EXPERT answer.

    Unless courts up there are a lot different than this side of the border.
    Yes, witness of fact.
    Never looked at the differences.

    Never liked opinionating, although it has been asked of myself. Mr. Young, Whom would you consider be the blame for xxxx.
    The case revolved around warranty, a bankrupt contractor, and subcontractors responsibility to make repairs and make whole a latent defect, or lack thereof, isolation joint.

    Last witness of fact, your honor, the judge, prevented attendees asking plaintiff or defendant direct questions. All questions channeled through, your honor.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    So, you will be there as a "witness of fact" only (this is what my report says I saw)? And you get how much, $100 (maybe that much as you are compelled by a subpoena to testify?
    Sorry, Jerry. Glossed over the question. Ops.

    The price of an 'full inspection,' ><$600.00 Canadian, from the client, if that is the case. And yes, roughly $100.00 US with our dollar being devalued the way it is, Lol.

    I have yet to be called for independent Expert discovery by a third party, so I would not know what the going rate would be.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Rip it out... Hot mop...


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Rip it out... Hot mop...
    Morning, Marc. Been some time. Hope you are well and in good spirits today.

    Nothing to rip out when a proper isolation joint is not present. The wall was stripped 2 times with membrane and betimin in one case. The isolation joint fill with spray foam.
    The other, relatively the same. Difference; building type. 1: Traditional Wood Framed. 2: ICF.
    Simulatirtes, both performed through ill advised self confidence. Not tried/tested/true building practices.
    Too bad.
    So sad.

    Lest we forget. The 2 planes/both planes will not be at the same level of plane, continually. There will be differential movement.
    The isolation joint used, there are several on the market for this situation, cold climate, possibility of condensate and moisture intrusion, must be able to withstand the diererantal movement and displace thermal conduction.

    Spray foam was used. WRONG!

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlene Reinhard View Post
    Sorry about this post. I have tried three browsers and for whatever reason it is losing all line feeds. The image is formatted for easier reading.Thanks Robert for asking how I am doing. Still makes my stomach churn to think about but holding up fine. At least I can sleep at night.I am using a brand new digital level from Home Depot. it allows you to measure a pitch in 1/8 increments per foot. I am somewhat a newbee but think the directions were easy enough.I am not sure i understand why the flood test is so important. They did one with the liner but i would expect it to pass since it is a single piece of pvc liner with just one corner dam (that i insisted they use). My bigger worry is that over time any one of their poor workmanship is going to allow water in to slowly degrade the shower.1. No support for mortar bed between studs.2. Screwed in hardie board ON TOP of PVC liner3. Weep holes that don't appear to work. Cannot get water to them (0 slope in places) and can't get water through them for some reason4. No vapor barrier. Their only "waterproofing" is going to be redguard at the seams of hardie board.5. Tiles applied directly to PVC at inside of curb falling offWe think these are our three options1. Trust her (owner) and the warranty. 2. Ask her to stay away from our shower and finish the rest of the project. Have to hire a professional tile person at extra cost.3. Ask her to leave the entire project but then have to find lots of stuff on our own. cabinets, granite, trim and door painting, lights, .... I have decent confidence that her other work is good. As it has been work up until the shower.I lean toward doing #2. My husband worries if two companies are involved they would always blame the other if failure occurs.
    Your husband is not only insightful, but right,that will happen. Your concerns are valid. Any chance she could be persuaded to use a prefab at additional cost ? This would appear to eliminate your concerns and move the project forward at the least cost to you while ataining a quality job.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Worried homeowner - shower drain and liner

    Suggestion: go to YouTube and search for Starrtile. You will find answers to all your questions. And, yes the contractor is screwing it all up from your description. Preslope is a newer thing and if the liner is properly installed and at least 2 coats of red guard over mortar bed and up the walls you should not have problems if the corners are tucked correctly and the drain is installed correctly. 3 coats in corners and curb. The backer board should NEVER extend into the pan. I think at least 3/4 inch up is preferred by experts.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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