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  1. #1
    Wendell Swedberg's Avatar
    Wendell Swedberg Guest

    Default ICCC test question

    Here is the question:

    The water main valve has been turned on to conduct a test. The house main shutoff valve is shutt off. The municpal pressure exceeds 40 psi. no leaks are detected for 10 minutes. The inspector notes "No violation".
    Is the inspector correct?

    The ICC says, Yes. The inspector is in compliance and the test complies with code.

    I say no because test is to be conducted for at least 15 minutes at 50 PSI........Why am I wrong?
    P2503.6 Water-supply system testing.
    Upon completion of
    the water-supply system or a section of it, the system or portion
    completed shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure
    of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for
    piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than
    50 psi (345 kPa). This pressure shall be held for not less than 15
    minutes. The water used for tests shall be obtained from a potable
    water source.



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  2. #2
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    Default Re: ICC test question

    I am bold and underlining the critical parts to answer your question - see if you see it before I answer it at the bottom. You are both correct and incorrect, meaning the ICC is both incorrect and correct. Being as one cannot be both 'correct and incorrect' at the same time, that makes both of you "incorrect".

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendell Swedberg View Post
    Here is the question:

    The water main valve has been turned on to conduct a test. The house main shutoff valve is shut off. The municipal pressure exceeds 40 psi. no leaks are detected for 10 minutes. The inspector notes "No violation".
    Is the inspector correct?

    The ICC says, Yes. The inspector is in compliance and the test complies with code.

    I say no because test is to be conducted for at least 15 minutes at 50 PSI........Why am I wrong?


    P2503.6 Water-supply system testing.
    Upon completion of
    the water-supply system or a section of it, the system or portion
    completed shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure
    of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for
    piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than
    50 psi (345 kPa). This pressure shall be held for not less than 15
    minutes. The water used for tests shall be obtained from a potable
    water source.




    Wendell,

    P2903.3 Minimum pressure.
    Minimum static pressure (as
    determined by the local water authority) at the building
    entrance for either public or private water service shall be 40
    psi (276 kPa).


    The question stated:

    "municipal pressure exceeds 40 psi"

    Which meets the required "minimum pressure" - that part is okay.

    Now back to the code section you posted.

    P2503.6 Water-supply system testing.
    Upon completion of the water-supply system or a section of it, the system or portion completed shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi (345 kPa). This pressure shall be held for not less than 15 minutes. The water used for tests shall be obtained from a potable water source.

    The "working pressure of the system" was stated as being "The municipal pressure exceeds 40 psi", that is the "working pressure of the system" and the pressure to which "the system or portion complete shall be tested and proved tight", i.e., 'no leaks'.
    Now back AGAIN to the code section you posted.

    P2503.6 Water-supply system testing.
    Upon completion of the water-supply system or a section of it, the system or portion completed shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi (345 kPa). This pressure shall be held for not less than 15 minutes. The water used for tests shall be obtained from a potable water source.

    This is where YOU are correct and the ICC is incorrect. "This pressure", i.e., the pressure the test is being made at, "shall be held for not less than 15 minutes." and the question only stated it was held for 10 minutes.

    A) You are incorrect on the pressure aspect.

    B) The ICC is incorrect on the time aspect.

    C) BAD QUESTION.

    Now back AGAIN to the code section you posted.

    P2503.6 Water-supply system testing.
    Upon completion of the water-supply system or a section of it, the system or portion completed shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi (345 kPa). This pressure shall be held for not less than 15 minutes. The water used for tests shall be obtained from a potable water source.

    The question did not address "what type of material" the piping was, so you read that section as: "shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system or, for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi (345 kPa)

    I.e., The system shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system, regardless of the material used ... or ... for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi.

    Being as we were not told the material of the system, we must discount the "... or ... for piping systems other than plastic, by an air test of not less than 50 psi" - while *it may apply* nothing says it does, we do know, however, that the pressure *does apply* - "shall be tested and proved tight under a water pressure of not less than the working pressure of the system" REGARDLESS of the material used.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Talking Re: ICCC test question

    Wendell:

    It's a poorly formulated question. Pyschometricians suck, for the most part. Their job, as they view it, is to write questions that are so profoundly unfathomable as to confuse even the most astute. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that they are specialists in the examination authoring field and do not know shi%t about anything else. The plot thickens when you realize that the agencies who hire them are so in awe of their college degrees in psychobabble and related foolishness that they do not closely oversee or bother to edit their work.

    Examples of this sort of stuff are abundant in ICC and other exams.

    Live with it,

    Aaron


  4. #4
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
    Brandon Chew Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    The part they don't tell you that you need to know is that the code inspector has 20 inspections and office work to do during his 8 hour work day, thus he can't spend more than 10 minutes at any one job site.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Aaron speaks the truth regarding your typical ICC exam as I spent 2006-07 on the IRC interpretation committee in which we worked on correcting some very convoluted code definitions, which unfortunately found their way into several of the ICC exams. ICC is doing its best to make all of its varied products perfect, but as an old favorite Chinese proverb went: “there are two perfect men, one dead, the other unborn.”

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  6. #6
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Left Coast Jerry:

    Wonderful quote.

    Aaron


  7. #7
    Wendell Swedberg's Avatar
    Wendell Swedberg Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Thanks, Jerry.....I didn't look at P2903.3 Minimum pressure.



  8. #8
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    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Wendell:

    It's a poorly formulated question. Pyschometricians suck, for the most part. Their job, as they view it, is to write questions that are so profoundly unfathomable as to confuse even the most astute. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that they are specialists in the examination authoring field and do not know shi%t about anything else. The plot thickens when you realize that the agencies who hire them are so in awe of their college degrees in psychobabble and related foolishness that they do not closely oversee or bother to edit their work.

    Examples of this sort of stuff are abundant in ICC and other exams.

    Live with it,

    Aaron
    Actually I don't think that the ICC exams are psycometriclly valid exams. I have never seen that stated on any of the ICC material. They might have had a psychometrician review them, but this is an ongoing process that would eventually alleviate the problematic questions.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  9. #9
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Scott:

    In my world the terms "psychometry" and "valid" cannot be used in the same library together, much less in the same sentence.

    One of the greatest problems this country has with its inability to compete educationally with other industrial Western nations is due in no small part to the invention by psychometricians of the multiple choice examination.

    One of the reasons we import so many of our engineers, physicians and other professionals from other countries is that they do not utilize such nonsensical methods for determining skill and proficiency. Thus they are superior to the schmucks turned out by our schools.

    Go back to the original stupid question formulated by the ICC exam author. What would have been wrong with asking the question like this? "Please state in 300 words or less exactly how a residential water pressure inspection is to be conducted according to the IRC."?

    If you really want to test a man's metal ask questions and require essay style answers. The multiple choice nonsense system breeds test-teaching facilities and the incompetent warm body placeholders that they graduate.

    Aaron


  10. #10
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    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Scott:

    Go back to the original stupid question formulated by the ICC exam author. What would have been wrong with asking the question like this? "Please state in 300 words or less exactly how a residential water pressure inspection is to be conducted according to the IRC."?

    If you really want to test a man's metal ask questions and require essay style answers. The multiple choice nonsense system breeds test-teaching facilities and the incompetent warm body placeholders that they graduate.

    Aaron
    I agree. The reason that the ICC does not have a question like that is that the ICC is not really testing ones knowledge of the subject matter but rather ones ability of how to look up the item in a book.

    Another little dirty secret is that the ICC is a membership organization and if they made the exams too hard they would have less members. Then they would not have the funds that are needed to keep updating the codes and to participate it all of the activities that they do. I know some folks won't agree with this but it is what it is.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  11. #11
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    ICC is a membership organization and if they made the exams too hard they would have less members. Then they would not have the funds that are needed to keep updating the codes and to participate it all of the activities that they do. I know some folks won't agree with this but it is what it is.
    Scott:

    There's no secret there. At least not to me. Unfortunately, the same set of rules applies to the entire educational system of this nation. It's a membership organization (citizenship), without participation (taxes), they could not afford to continue to pay physchomagicians to systematically dumb down the populace to the level of say . . .
    George W. Bush and his supporters.

    Aaron


  12. #12
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    Default Re: ICCC test question

    I have to disagree with you guys on this subject as over the years I’ve worked with Dr. David Nelson, Doug Hatch and Michael Clemens. All three are professionals through and through besides being gentlemen and know their stuff inside out. Yep, ICC psychometricians all. Good exam writing takes skill and not as easy as one might think.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  13. #13
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: ICCC test question

    Pyschometricians suck, for the most part.
    Left Coast Jerry:

    That's why I said, for the most part. It was almost an over-generalization, but not quite. On each of the four exams necessary for the R-5 ICC certification I requested at the end of the exam a review of some of the questions. They were either obtusely conceived or just bordering on meaningless.

    My issue with the lot of these charlatans is the same as with attorneys. They may well be "professionals" in their chosen field of endeavor (whatever that means), but lack sufficient knowledge in the areas in which they practice to be of any real assistance to their ultimate clients.

    Hypothetically, Mr. Building N. Spector rises to the top of his field, becomes bored and wants to change careers. He returns to school, grabs up a masters and doctors degree in whatever psycho-babbling is required in order to call oneself a psychometrician. Now, he, in my opinion, is qualified to write tests for inspectors. He has the background knowledge necessary to do the job correctly. This does not insure that he had talent for his first profession or that he will exhibit any for his newfound one. It just means that he has the makings of a professional.

    All the rest are wannabes. That's what's wrong with the testing system. The tests are being written by test writers with no real background in the subjects their tests address. It's a doomed system from the start. Never worked, is not working and cannot possibly work.

    Aaron


  14. #14
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    Default Re: ICC test question

    The reason I worked through the code was not to show that the question was a "bad" question as much to show that "much could be learned" from figuring out "bad" questions.

    For instance, if the question had stated:

    The water main valve has been turned on to conduct a test. The house main shutoff valve is shut off. The municipal pressure exceeds 40 psi. no leaks are detected for 25 minutes. The inspector notes "No violation".
    Is the inspector correct?

    Wendell would still have missed it because he choose the answer which had the same stated numbers as was stated in the code. The "minimum pressure" and the application of that part of the sentence to tests of "all" materials "with water" was not considered.

    Only the numbers were looked at, not what the numbers were related to - testing "other than plastic" "with air".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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