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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Jerry,

    I disagree only because the label is describing maximum operating conditions in normal use and not under fault conditions.

    I would not make a determination that it is not to be on the "hot" side from this label alone.

    NHIE Practice Exam

  2. #67
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    I disagree only because the label is describing maximum operating conditions
    Michael,

    You are quite correct there. "label is describing maximum operating conditions" That is a very correct statement.

    in normal use and not under fault conditions.
    Unfortunately, though, that is where you are incorrect.

    The label, as you first stated, "label is describing maximum operating conditions" ... "MAXIMUM" operating conditions - under any condition.

    Are you implying that you would find, under normal operation, hot water which is 200 degrees F?

    And that you would consider that "normal"?

    I would not make a determination that it is not to be on the "hot" side from this label alone.
    You might not, apparently you do not, but unless the T&P valve is set to protect at a maximum setting of 200 degrees F, that is precisely what the label is telling you.

    As you said: "label is describing maximum operating conditions", plain and simple.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #68
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Are you implying that you would find, under normal operation, hot water which is 200 degrees F?.
    No more than your implying that 210 F is a normal operating condition.

    Off to an inspection. I come back later.

    BTW- I always call it out when the temp is above 120 F for the sake of safety.


  4. #69
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    No more than your implying that 210 F is a normal operating condition.

    Michael,

    Ummmm ... least you forget ... *YOU* are the one who keeps replacing the word "maximum" with the word "normal", you just did it again in the above.

    Watts states "maximum", as have I, but you seem to be stuck on trying to get it to mean "normal", which it does not.

    Even for race cars, their "maximum speed" is not their "normal speed".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #70
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Jerry,

    And just what do you have to say about Fritz's post?


  6. #71
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    And just what do you have to say about Fritz's post?
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Fritz,

    Watts PLT-5

    Look Here------ http://www.watts.com/pdf/IS-PLT.pdf
    Michael,

    In case you have not learned much here yet, the main thing you should have learned by now is that you go by what the manufacturer puts in writing (see Billy's post) and take in and assimilate what they tell you that is different.

    You can take what they put in writing to the bank, so to speak (in reality, you will be taking to the court house, which, at times, is more important than to the bank).

    You should not be relying on what they tell you, unless it also matches what the put in writing. When what they tell you does not match what they put in writing, well, if you have not learned to know which to go by at this late date, I'm not sure I can help you understand that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #72
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This:



    Michael,

    In case you have not learned much here yet, the main thing you should have learned by now is that you go by what the manufacturer puts in writing (see Billy's post) and take in and assimilate what they tell you that is different.

    You can take what they put in writing to the bank, so to speak (in reality, you will be taking to the court house, which, at times, is more important than to the bank).

    You should not be relying on what they tell you, unless it also matches what the put in writing. When what they tell you does not match what they put in writing, well, if you have not learned to know which to go by at this late date, I'm not sure I can help you understand that.
    I'll make you a deal Jerry,

    I won't insult your intelligence if you won't insult mine.

    You know plenty but you are hardly the only one.

    The instructions on the label do not support your case IMHO.


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    I'll make you a deal Jerry,

    I won't insult your intelligence if you won't insult mine.
    My answers are worded to reflect the way your questions are asked. Ask like everyone else and they will be answered like that.

    Ask them like you do and I will continue to answer them like I do.

    The instructions on the label do not support your case IMHO.
    I know you don't, so I've been trying my best to explain 'the why' the label *DOES* support the fact that is says *do not install on the hot side where the water can get hotter than 200 degrees*, not only that, but the installation instructions which Billy linked to also *only show* it installed on the cold side, and give the same, and even greater, warning *not to do it differently*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #74
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz Kelly View Post
    These are the types of things that make the trades people think we are idiots and recommend things that have no basis.
    There is a basis, the label states the maximum temperature it is to be used at, and the T&P states the maximum temperature it reliefs at, which is higher than the maximum temperature for which it is allowed to be used at.

    1. The manufacturers installation guide does not state that it has to be on the cold piping.
    The manufacturer's installation instructions state and show it only on the cold side. It also includes a warning regarding the maximum temperature at which it is allowed to be used at (see comment above regarding same).

    2. The plumber says it is OK to install it on the hot piping.
    And you always believe the contractor when they say it is okay to multiple tap conductors, when they say they can use PVC for distribution water inside the house, when they say ... ?

    You're kidding, right?

    3. The AHJ approves the installation.
    They did? How do you know that? Or are you stating that because a house is 'signed off' and 'given a certificate of occupancy' that all is well?

    Surely you know better than that, right?

    4. There is notning in the code that says the tank needs to be on the cold side.
    Yes there is, it is supposed to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions, and they do not show it on the hot, only on the cold.

    I think a paved driveway will last longer than gravel. Should I recommend they pave the driveway?
    If the gravel is sugar cubes and you know it rains in that area, sure, you should tell your client 'Hey, did you know the driveway is made out of sugar cubes, and they melt and dissolve when they get wet, and it rains in this area ... makes as much sense are you comparison did ...

    In one, there is a label stating not to use it under conditions which may exceed its maximum temperature of 200 degrees F.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #75
    Randy Clayton's Avatar
    Randy Clayton Guest

    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    HaHa,Fritz; I agree with you sometimes I think these peolpe just like to hear there own voices and will argue the time of day...Lets just get on with it.


  11. #76
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    The instructions on the label do not support your case IMHO.
    Instructions on manufacturers' labels offer the only support you'll ever need.

    Aaron


  12. #77
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Clayton View Post
    HaHa,Fritz; I agree with you sometimes I think these peolpe just like to hear there own voices and will argue the time of day...Lets just get on with it.
    Like you and yours?

    "Lets just get on with it."

    How about "Let's do it the correct way.", after all, we are being paid to write up what is wrong, not try to justify what is wrong so it does not get corrected, leaving our client up $hit creek without their HI providing any backup for them. Unless you guys think the real estate agent is your client, you seen to be forgetting that the person who hired you (the buyer) is your client.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #78
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    Default Re: Expansion Tank on Hot side

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Instructions on manufacturers' labels offer the only support you'll ever need.

    Aaron
    Just cannot understand why some insist that doing it differently than shown and stated in the manufacturer's installation instructions and their label, then spend energy and frustration trying to defend doing it differently, ending up getting upset at others for point out that what the manufacturer says in its printed instructions and labels is actually what the manufacturer means.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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