Thread: Toilet clearance

Wow! Just read some other posts...wow!
Let me point this one important fact out: An architect may have a 6 year degree on his wall, lots of shiny bordered certificates from high dollar schools on his brag wall. BUT, it only only takes one well trained Building Inspector with 2 certificates to shut that architects job down.
Point is, everyone makes mistakes. However, when an inspector makes one there is no financial gain...for anyone. When an architect makes one, they call it profit.

Originally Posted by Daniel MacBeth

Hi Mike,

Thank you. I am not fleeing or fighting. I have no problem with learning what the home inspectors are doing. However, I disagree with a tiny part of your statement concerning Architect's qualifications. Architects have been involved with quality controls since the pyramids. In modern terms, all you need to do is simply compare AIA document A107™–2007 beginning from the original version first published in 1915 through the current revision and you will see how we have been involved in quality control and enforcement for a lot longer than private home inspectors as a profession per se.

Dan,

I also have enjoined the converations, but I take exception with some of your comments about Architects. Yes, they have been around for a while. But, my experience with Architects has been slightly the opposite than yours. Both on large and small projects that I have worked on, they tend to look at the project from the 1000 foot perspective, not down to the 1 foot level. Because of this, errors do occur----some very expensive. Some can't be corrected because of the cost involved. Or when asked about some detail, they are not sure how to answer the question and leave it to the contractor to offer suggestions. In my field I have found that we need to tell the Architect the specifications and requirements---they don't have a clue. As for relying on an Architect as much as you do to build as close to specs as possible, I can only state that if I was paying as much as you say for a piece of property and the building---I would at least want a spacious bathroom to justify my expensive lifestyle----not one the size of a Pullman's. I might want at least a 18" clearence.


Rich

Originally Posted by Daniel MacBeth

Jerry - using your words -- you are full of she##at. The only reason I pay any attention to you is because your ignorance could be a virus infecting all the healthy people on this forum and in this world. You are like Al'qaeda as far as I am concerned. You are too radical... You defy every thing I stand for. I did not fight overseas for your vision of America. Get a life.

Daniel.. Due to this topic I decided to include if the toilets have proper clearance in all of my reports.. To help me prevent having a builder call and tell me "you are full of she##at, determine with out knowing me, I am "Trailer Trash" or like "Al"qaeda" . Can you provide me documenation from your Architect that I can use to not address this issue, and let it slide?

To date the only complement I've heard that a builders rep told a customer was, Oh, you had Dan do your inspection, He hates builders.

Any info would be appreciated, I sure do not want to join the Jerry's and be accused of being ignorant, being a terrorist , radical, and be guilty of spreading a virus that can inflict all my healthy customers.

DMacB is likely grumpy due to more claims & bond problems again. Won't be the first cancellation notice or refusal to renew.

NBs floor area special definitions were recinded, none of his arguments or excuses "hold water", usually the case when someone is on a rant because they're "victims" of their own stupidity, laziness, or greed when finally caught and held accountable for once (or the 20th time).

HG, of course the work I described can only be done with HOA permission, which I have.

Their bylaws state that all structural changes (which includes structural plumbing) must be done with HOA approval.

I submitted detailed plans which they approved, and now is optionally up to me to proceed with or not, and that's where I need to figure out if it can meet code or not before proceeding.

I mentioned the Chiller/Boiler pipes that I think you were referring to.
That has already been done.

As it turned out, the pipes were immediately below the slab, and not insulated, and a bad mold problem had formed over the years.
The slab above the pipes is continually wet in the summer from condensation, and w/in about a season, any carpet/liner becomes moldy.

I really had to fight w/the HOA to allow them to let me do this, but explained that it's a health risk and liability not to.

In this case, they approved it, but only under the condition that I contact their staff maintenance guy to do the work because they implicitly trust him.

My point was that he holds no licenses (not plumbing, not HVAC, etc.) and thus can not pull any permits.
So, it came down to going w/the HOA ruling, and paying their guy to do the work, or using a permitted licensed person and not following the HOA ruling.
That is the "controversy" I was referring to.

Option 3 was to not do anything, in which case I'm basically stuck with a mold health trap.


Incidentally, at this condo complex, their staff maintenance guy does all the common (HOA owned) plumbing work, with out a license or permit.
This is an old condo complex and they just don't seem to care.
The board thinks they know better than the city, and I learned to not argue with or question their decisions, even if they don't make sense.

Again, I think the best lesson learned is to get through this, and stay away from condo's as investments moving forward!

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

D. McB:

You blew yourself up with your "habital space" ratio argument. Habital space not the same as occupiable space vs. taxable/developed space.

Bathrooms, halls, garages and attics are not "habital" in the Calif building or zoning codes.

As for the rest of your ramblings, complaints, insults, excuses, illogical justifications as no singular extract of one aspect of the building codes in California stand alone, your arguments don't make your case they sink you.

One last word for D. McB on this topic: NUTS!!



Lee Birnbaum,

In re:



That's more than likely the Condo Association's Floor your jackhammering!
(are you sure your name isn't Gloria or Mihal?)

In Condos it is not at all unusual, in fact it is rarely legal for the owner of a condo, especially one who is not an OCCUPANT (in residence) of a condo to be allowed to do, supervise, or contract out ANY plumbing work beyond swapping out a fixture or faucet, within the footprint of the actual owned "condo" especially not interconnecting, rerouting common elements or limited common elements so critical as building systems, potable plumbing, DWV, or something as risky as anything that might leak, overflow, or clog, especially below a floor surface, in a wall cavity beyond the "footprint" or if a chase within, one that also shares pathways to other units.

I'm surprised you're jackhammering anything, or moving fixture locations, adding a shower, etc. Adding demand (DFUs and demand - water to the branch and entire system) without their express approval that's their building - structure, systems, etc. its just your airspace and decor.

A licensed, permitted plumbing contractor that the condo works with, knows their entire SYSTEM (history of repairs/modifications/materials, engineering, and functioning, OR the condo's on-site maintenance engineer/staff was and is the usual modus. Many Condos will not allow anyone but their designee turn off or on a supply valve to a riser or individual unit branch. Most plumbing codes that allow an owner to work even on a free-standing single family residence as an exception to otherwise require a licensed plumber, usually do so only if owner occupied, and intending to remain so for a finite period of time beyond the completed project. Many states/locales also have similar provisos for work otherwise required to use a licensed electrician, for the owner/OCCUPANT exception, and allow "investor owners" only if they own the entire multifamily structure and reside in one of the units (owner/occupied). It likewise seems REASONABLE that a Condo Association would be less likely to "bend" their policies or rules for an investor "developer" or "remodeler" who has no intention of residing in the unit but looks to either flip it or be an offsite landlord and therefore will not personally experience the ramifications, should there be any (such as repair costs/fines down the road should there be problems - you and your plumber long gone) and "in their mind" you'd have less incentive to assure the "hidden" parts of your project are done not only minimally to code, but to the unique requirements of the building as a whole (including their experience with the demands upon the system). "They" may ( ) require more than the Minimum "code", they're allowed to - those systems "belong" to "them".

Point being, I wouldn't be throwing stones at the condo board/association, on your many DIY flips/conversions/investor rennovation projects, for if "they" wanted to they could turn the tables on YOU. More and more such associations have and are adopting rules (some by mere rules adopted by the board and not requiring owners approval vote, some via bylaws or covenants requiring owners voting to approve) prohibiting "investor owners". More states' courts have supported those "new rules" even when not providing a "grandfather" to those units already purchased by "investors".

Kinda of a crappy subject. No wonder tbere's so much crap in it.

Originally Posted by Lee Birnbaum

HG, of course the work I described can only be done with HOA permission, which I have.

Their bylaws state that all structural changes (which includes structural plumbing) must be done with HOA approval.

I submitted detailed plans which they approved, and now is optionally up to me to proceed with or not, and that's where I need to figure out if it can meet code or not before proceeding.

I mentioned the Chiller/Boiler pipes that I think you were referring to.
That has already been done.

As it turned out, the pipes were immediately below the slab, and not insulated, and a bad mold problem had formed over the years.
The slab above the pipes is continually wet in the summer from condensation, and w/in about a season, any carpet/liner becomes moldy.

I really had to fight w/the HOA to allow them to let me do this, but explained that it's a health risk and liability not to.

In this case, they approved it, but only under the condition that I contact their staff maintenance guy to do the work because they implicitly trust him.

My point was that he holds no licenses (not plumbing, not HVAC, etc.) and thus can not pull any permits.
So, it came down to going w/the HOA ruling, and paying their guy to do the work, or using a permitted licensed person and not following the HOA ruling.
That is the "controversy" I was referring to.

Option 3 was to not do anything, in which case I'm basically stuck with a mold health trap.


Incidentally, at this condo complex, their staff maintenance guy does all the common (HOA owned) plumbing work, with out a license or permit.
This is an old condo complex and they just don't seem to care.
The board thinks they know better than the city, and I learned to not argue with or question their decisions, even if they don't make sense.

Again, I think the best lesson learned is to get through this, and stay away from condo's as investments moving forward!

This situation is like working at a site that is within one local's (Union) jurisdiction, but you want to use a specific contractor that has a card from another local. So, you negotiate with the local to have a person or persons representing the local on site and they will work under the direction of your contractor. You are paying for double the manpower, but you are getting the job done the way you want it with the least amount of issues.

What you do is say yes to the HOA, then have a HVAC contractor of your choice get the permits, do the work with the HOA person assisting, and have it inspected by the city.

You explain to the "maintenance" person that you have been advised to do it this way (by whom ever you want to say, lawyer, etc.), but that he will be there and can "help" the contractor (explain to the contractor ahead of time). Add that he may get some new pointers on HVAC work that can help him with his work---you are helping him do his job better. Don't think that you will have any issues if you get him on your side.

You are paying twice, but it will be done your way and you will be able to trust the work. It's a shame the HOA is so stubborn.

Rich

As noted at today's inspection, apparently:

[quote=Michael Thomas;126992]As noted at today's inspection
/quote]

I don't think you even need a code reference on that one!

Remember, papering your corner bead wipes out cracks.

Originally Posted by David Bell

Remember, papering your corner bead wipes out cracks.

Who said anything about wiping cracks?

Leftys should have no problem with that installation.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

.
As noted at today's inspection, apparently:
.

.
What's the Matter ?
.
* You guys in The Big City Never Seen a Built-In Water Closet ?
.

im doing my first reno and have come across this 15in toilet rule. My question is who came up with 15in and why?

Minimum required clearance is:
- side: 15" from center of the toilet to each side
- front: 21" or 23" (I don't recall which from memory)

(I didn't notice the old date of the post I replied to ... oh well, either leave it or delete my reply.)

[QUOTE=Jerry Peck;286511]Minimum required clearance is:
- side: 15" from center of the toilet to each side
- front: 21" or 23" (I don't recall which from memory)

(I didn't notice the old date of the post I replied to ... oh well, either leave it or delete my reply.)[/QUOT

Thanks, what i would really like to know is why this code exists?

Originally Posted by Nick Hayman

im doing my first reno and have come across this 15in toilet rule. My question is who came up with 15in and why?

My question is why your why?

It's been that for decades.

Who came up with each code requirement and why? But does it even matter?

Codes are consensus documents. An individual submits a code change, a committee debates it, the public has an opportunity for input, another committee discusses it again, then it is voted on and approved/accepted or rejected.

Originally Posted by Nick Hayman

im doing my first reno and have come across this 15in toilet rule. My question is who came up with 15in and why?

Little known bogus fact. It was Jeremy Largerear who decided that it should be centered in a 30" minimum space. He was tired of having to call the fire brigade (he was from Brown Willy, a little village in Cornwall) every time he had to deposit a #2, so he lobbied Parliament to have a minimum clearance defined in the Magna Carta.

Littler known bogus fact... Largerear's best friend knew a girl who was the third cousin, twice-removed from John Crapper.

Real fact:
IRC = 15" to center, 21" from the front edge of the bowl to wall,door, or fixture.
UPC = 15" to center, 24" from the front edge to wall, door, or fixture.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Little known bogus fact. It was Jeremy Largerear who decided that it should be centered in a 30" minimum space. He was tired of having to call the fire brigade (he was from Brown Willy, a little village in Cornwall) every time he had to deposit a #2, so he lobbied Parliament to have a minimum clearance defined in the Magna Carta.

Littler known bogus fact... Largerear's best friend knew a girl who was the third cousin, twice-removed from John Crapper.

Real fact:
IRC = 15" to center, 21" from the front edge of the bowl to wall,door, or fixture.
UPC = 15" to center, 24" from the front edge to wall, door, or fixture.

This board gets more amusing the longer the quarantine lasts.... hope that continues.