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  1. #1
    Jeff Beck's Avatar
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    Default PVC to black pipe connections

    I don't see a lot of PVC to black pipe connections so this could be acceptable but it sure looks funny to me.

    Is this the correct way to connect a PVC pipe to a black pipe main drain?

    Jeff Beck
    Foresight Home Inspection LLC

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Beck View Post
    Is this the correct way to connect a PVC pipe to a black pipe main drain?

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Think "drain" ... think "drain fittings have direction" ... photo shows a non-directional fitting of ... yecch type ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Think "drain" ... think "drain fittings have direction" ... photo shows a non-directional fitting of ... yecch type ...
    Thanks for making me think and look this one up.

    While I think it should be directional too, it does appear to be allowed in my area. Haven't seen one myself, yet.
    Probably best to check with the local AHJ if there are any questions.

    Saddle tee

    from WI plumbing code

    84.30 (5)

    (d) Pipe saddles. Pipe saddles shall be installed in accordance
    with the instructions of the saddle manufacturer and conform to
    all of the following limitations:
    1. Pipe saddles may be installed on private interceptor main
    sewers, building sewers, underground drain and vent pipe and tubing,
    and where otherwise approved by the department.
    2. A saddle for drain piping shall have a radius in accordance
    with s. Comm 82.30 (8) (a).

    3. The material of the saddle shall be compatible with the
    materials of the pipes which are to be connected to the saddle.
    4. The hole in the pipe which is to receive the saddle shall be
    drilled or cored to match the saddle outlet.
    5. Straps or clamps which wrap around the pipe and saddle
    shall be provided by the manufacturer of the saddle.
    6. Saddles shall be installed with straps or clamps which wrap
    around the pipe and saddle.
    7. Proper hangers or bedding shall be provided to maintain
    alignment between the opening in the pipe and the saddle.

    Comm 82.30

    (8) PIPING CHANGES IN DIRECTION. Changes in the direction of
    drain piping shall be accomplished in accordance with the requirements
    of this subsection.
    (a) Fittings. All changes in direction of flow in drain piping
    shall be made by the appropriate use of 45 degree wyes, long or
    short sweep quarter bends, sixth, eighth, or sixteenth bends, or by
    a combination of these or other equivalent fittings
    . Except as provided
    in subds. 1. to 3
    ., fittings which change the direction of flow
    for drain piping 8" or less in diameter shall conform to the minimum
    radii specified in Table 82.30−4.
    Note: See Appendix for further explanatory material.
    1. The minimum radius for the first 90 fitting downstream
    from a trap serving a lavatory or sink shall be 1−3/4 for drain piping
    1−1/2 in diameter. The fitting shall be a tee or quarter bend.
    2. The minimum radius for the first 90 bend or elbow downstream
    from a water closet shall be 2−1/2 for drain piping 3 in
    diameter.
    3. The minimum radius for the first 90 bend or elbow downstream


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Michael,

    I'm underlining different words which I think you may have missed.

    Note: See Appendix for further explanatory material.
    1. The minimum radius for the first 90 fitting downstream
    from a trap serving a lavatory or sink shall be 1−3/4 for drain piping
    1−1/2 in diameter. The fitting shall be a tee or quarter bend.
    2. The minimum radius for the first 90 bend or elbow downstream
    from a water closet shall be 2−1/2 for drain piping 3 in
    diameter.
    3. The minimum radius for the first 90 bend or elbow downstream
    I doubt that is "the first" "90 degree fitting" (and that, to me, is even stretching the use of the phrase '90 degree fitting) "downstream from a trap" (that exception only applies to the first fitting after the trap) "serving a lavatory or sink" (what does that serve? a lavatory or a sink?).

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    I'm underlining different words which I think you may have missed.



    I doubt that is "the first" "90 degree fitting" (and that, to me, is even stretching the use of the phrase '90 degree fitting) "downstream from a trap" (that exception only applies to the first fitting after the trap) "serving a lavatory or sink" (what does that serve? a lavatory or a sink?).
    I think it's a lousy way to do it but I read it as permitted.

    I personally would check with the AHJ if and when I encounter one. I checked the Appendix to the WI code which has diagrams but it's doesn't specifically show this type of fitting.

    Is it any clearer in the international codes?


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Michael,

    The way I read it, it is not permitted, or, at most, permitted only under very specific conditions, which that photo does not appear to meet.

    Be that as it may, you asked about the IRC: (underlining is mine)
    - P3003.2 Prohibited joints. Running threads and bands shall not be used in the drainage system. Drainage and vent piping shall not be drilled, tapped, burned or welded.
    - - The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:
    - - - 1. Cement or concrete.
    - - - 2. Mastic or hot-pour bituminous joints.
    - - - 3. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.
    - - - 4. Joints between different diameter pipes made with elastomeric rolling O-rings.
    - - - 5. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.
    - - - 6. Saddle-type fittings.

    This is a good time to point out what I keep forgetting to point out in response to other questions about different type plastics and glues for them: see 5 above. "5. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe"

    That would not be allowed under the IRC.


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    The proper way to tie into that waste line would have been by cutting in a "T". Depending upon the local plumbing codes, PVC can or cannot be used. The transition from cast iron to PVC can be made with a clamp.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    What did you mean by PVC can or cannot be used? Do you have local codes that don't allow PVC drain lines?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    "The proper way to tie into that waste line would have been by cutting in a "T". "

    Most codes have, and I am surprised that the Chicago code Michael posted does not, a chart or table showing what fittings are allowed for what changes in direction, i.e., horizontal to horizontal, horizontal to vertical, vertical to horizontal. See Table P3005.1 Fittings For Change In Direction in the 2006 IRC.

    Some styles of fittings are allowed in some changes in direction but not in others.

    For example, a sanitary tee may be used when changing from horizontal to vertical, but may not be used when changing from horizontal to horizontal or vertical to horizontal.

    A standard pressure tee fitting may not be used in a drainage system regardless of the change in direction. Which is why I stated that it was "ABSOLUTELY NOT!" allowed, only to find that Chicago, for whatever their reason, allows a standard tee, and even allows a saddle fitting to be used, which is also not allowed in the IRC.

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    "What did you mean by PVC can or cannot be used? Do you have local codes that don't allow PVC drain lines?"

    In NYC, PVC can be used in 1-2 family dwellings but not in commercial or multiple dwellings. I do not know what other juristrictions allow.

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 05-23-2008 at 02:03 AM.
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  11. #11
    Richard Franklin's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    The key,

    3. The material of the saddle shall be compatible with the
    materials of the pipes which are to be connected to the saddle.

    ABS and PVC are NOT compatible. The glue will not work.
    Jerry Peck alluded to this on types of connections not allowed.


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Most codes have, and I am surprised that the Chicago code Michael posted does not, a chart or table showing what fittings are allowed for what changes in direction, i.e., horizontal to horizontal, horizontal to vertical, vertical to horizontal. See Table P3005.1 Fittings For Change In Direction in the 2006 IRC.
    The code I posted is not from Chicago.

    It's he Wisconsin Plumbing Code Jerry.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Fellas, my question is this...Is this a vent or a drain? If it is a vent, then this is fine, drainage on the other hand, Jerry hit it on the head. Steve also mentioned cutting in a T, that too is fine and the connection can be done through either a no hub or fernco fitting. Hence the transition from CI to ABS or CI/ABS to PVC.
    Big thing is it should be graded to the drain.

    Again, Vent or Drain? I'm not sure it was determined from the original post.

    Pat


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    The code I posted is not from Chicago.

    It's he Wisconsin Plumbing Code Jerry.

    Oops!

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Martinez View Post
    Fellas, my question is this...Is this a vent or a drain? If it is a vent, then this is fine,

    Pat,

    Ummm ... you lost me there.

    The same fittings are required for vents and drains, which is why that piping is referred to as DWV (DrainWasteVent).

    Granted, though, it would 'not be as bad' for a vent, but it would still not be correct.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Hey Jerry,

    not true in the sense of all fittings are created equal...Vent fittings do not have the grade or sweep of drainage fittings as these are only to permit air flow. The graded back to drain issue is to prevent any pooling. I'm not trying to confuse the issue but vent fittings can tee into a stack vent, so again, I was asking clarification if this is a vent or drain.


  17. #17
    Jeff Beck's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    As I recall this connection was for a gray water drain.

    The house is not located in Chicago proper but in one of the larger northwest suburbs. I have a call into the Building Dept. to get an answer on their codes. I'll post here when I get an answer.

    Thanks for all your excellent replies.

    Jeff Beck
    Foresight Home Inspection LLC


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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Martinez View Post
    not true in the sense of all fittings are created equal...Vent fittings do not have the grade or sweep of drainage fittings as these are only to permit air flow. The graded back to drain issue is to prevent any pooling. I'm not trying to confuse the issue but vent fittings can tee into a stack vent, so again, I was asking clarification if this is a vent or drain.
    Paul,

    Vent fittings are required to be installed in the direction of the flow (the air flow), and are required to have direction.

    Show me some code which states vent fittings are not required to be the same.

    From the 2006 IRC.

    - P3104.2 Grade. Vent and branch vent pipes shall be graded, connected and supported to allow moisture and condensate to drain back to the soil or waste pipe by gravity.


    DWV fittings have that grading built in. Pressure fittings do not. DWV fittings are the same fittings as ... DWV fittings. They are called DWV for a reason.



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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    "ABS and PVC are NOT compatible. The glue will not work.
    Jerry Peck alluded to this on types of connections not allowed."

    It doesn't look like the ABS and PVC are glued together. Aren't they mated with the clamp and the rubber gasket behind the clamp?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Jim,

    Which brings this part of that code into question:

    "7. Proper hangers or bedding shall be provided to maintain alignment between the opening in the pipe and the saddle."

    Plus, is that designed and intended to have a PVC saddle mounted to an ABS pipe in that manner?

    To me, everything about it looks wrong.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
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    Wink Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Jerry,

    I am attempting to attach some pics with the differences.... On the 2008 PDF file there is a guide which shows many types of street, typical, long turn and short 90's for installation. All are considered DWV.
    Hopefully this helps to clarify.

    Pat

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  22. #22
    Patrick Martinez's Avatar
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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Additionally, here are some examples of saddles for tie ins.

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    Default Re: PVC to black pipe connections

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Martinez View Post
    All are considered DWV.
    And all are different than pressure fittings.

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